Per ESPN-Anthony Hargrove Suspended 8 games. Vilma for the year.

quote:

Originally posted by Grave Digger:

Follow the logic:

1. There was a bounty program
2. The league investigated it
3. The league investigators couldn't possibly make a mistake
4. The league concluded these players were involved

Is your mind blown?

This really needs to be a wonderlic test question.

I've got something for you to wonderlic . . .

My testing days are behind me.

No late "blue period"?

I'm bored.

I don't beat myself up over the blue periods.

Mixaphorically speaking.

Like it owes me money.

quote:

can I have a for instance on this?

Sure- in the Dead Spin article I linked earlier, they highlight a couple documents from the released PPT slides:

One document details how in a NYG game Roman Harper received $1000 for a "cart-off".

Another shows that Jonathan Vilma, Mike Ornstein (a felon accused of funding the program- there's an email in the article as well showing that Ornstein was contributing cash to Williams), assistant coach Joe Vitt, and someone named Grant (presumedly Charles Grant) all contributed to a "QB Out" pool against the Vikings. In that document, it shows that McCray received $5000, and he is the one that rolled up on Favre's ankle in that game.

Of the documents released, these are the most damning. They definitely corroborate a bounty system in those 2 particular games.

quote:

One document details how in a NYG game Roman Harper received $1000 for a "cart-off"

ok, document lists it as such. who was carted off?

My favorite part is that the someone, no one will say who, transcribed these handwritten notes into a more clear format for the court. However, they seem unwilling or unable to produce the original handwritten notes, does anyone else think that's weird? I could accept what they have transcribed if they would also include the originals for everyone to examine, they won't do that though. Even if they produced the originals, what does that really prove? They don't know who wrote them and what all of those names and numbers mean in the context. Sure I think it's more than reasonable to assume that "Vilma - $10,000 QB" either means Vilma would be paid that for injuring the QB or he would pay someone $10,000 to injure the QB, but assumptions are not proof and they absolutely don't corroborate that these players were paid anything. Don't you agree MC that the burden of proof is on the NFL and they should have had evidence that shows beyond a reasonable doubt that these players are guilty before suspending these players and painting them as villains in the media?

I guess that's where you and I disagree. not that the burden of proof isn't on the NFL- it is. But that they have accomplished that. The transposed documents are not all the evidence they have. It can't be. They have testimony, too. And very likely more documents that they simply willnot release to the public. That's where I am giving the NFL the benefit of the doubt.

quote:

That's where I am giving the NFL the benefit of the doubt.

that's definitely where I differ. "just the cold hard facts please" is where I'm at.

We'll see because Vilma is going to make the produce everything when he takes it to court. I think they released what they believed to be the most concrete evidence they had and that evidence is flimsy at best.

@adbrandt
In case of Vilma v. Goodell, Jonathan Vilma informs court that if suspension upheld, he will seek injunction through the same court.

@adbrandt
Letter: "In the event Mr. Goodell does not rescind his suspension, Mr. Vilma intends to seek injunctive relief in a separate action."

That's interesting- so if Vilma succeeds in his one on one with Goodell, what does that do to future cases? Would his authority be undermined and leave open more lawsuits involving league discipline? If Vilma won, he could undo the CBA and Goodell's power couldn't they?

Power corrupts and absolute power... It is a mistake to give anyone the benefit of doubt in this case. The NFL needs to prove their case completely.

Suspension upheld.

Goodell: "Each of you was given multiple chances to meet with me to present your side of the story. You are each still welcome to do so.”

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:
The NFL needs to prove their case completely.

I think they are deathly afraid of having to share everything they know because it would harm the public image of the League and freak out their advertisers. So they disclose just enough info to push the case

If they didn't have enough rock-solid evidence, why on earth would an image conscious and advertiser-dependent League bring all of this dirt to light ? If they weren't absolutely sure of their conclusions, they would brush it under the table and handle it in-house. Which is what they tried to do in multiple letters to the Saints telling them to knock it off

That tells me that they've decided its less damaging to publicly bust the Saints than it is to look the other way and allow it to continue.

@AdamSchefter
Lawyers for Scott Fujita, Will Smith, Anthony Hagrove plan to file a temporary restraining order to try to stop suspensions in federal court


This will be interesting if Fed court listens and acts.

is Doty still the judge who gets it ?

Did I miss something? The coaches have accepted the punishment without much of a fight. I understand the athletes have a limited career span vs. the coaches, but to say there was no system when the coaches have tacitly acknowledged that there was? Top it off with the evidence provided to 12 reporters by the NFL who then reported it was pretty much an open and shut case.

There are no angels, but I can't understand the players' plea of innocence.

No one has ever admitted on record tht there was a bounty program...not Greg Williams, Joe Vitt, Sean Payton, etc. I do think the NFL has enough evidence though, including the audio of Greg Williams telling them to attack Crabtree's ACL and other stuff, to prove there was at the very least a pay-for-performance program if not a full on bounty program. And they've proven Loomis and Payton knew about the program were told to shut it down, and ignored that order which is why none of them are fighting it. So yes, they have proven there was a pay for performance and/or a bounty program directed by Williams and condoned by Payton and Loomis.

They have not proven anyone beyond Williams was actually involved though. The evidence they showed to the reporters was circumstantial at best. They have not come close to proving Vitt was involved either which is why he's the only coach fighting it. It sounds like all the "eyewitness" evidence was provided by a disgruntled former employee of the Saints who sounds like a real piece of work himself. The only evidence against Vilma is a slip of paper that says "Vilma $10,000 QB" which hasn't actually been produced by the NFL yet other than it being transcribed by someone who has also been unnamed. The only evidence against Hargrove is the video and anyone who looks at that can't say beyond a reasonable doubt that it's Hargrove actually saying the words.

So no I wouldn't say it's open and shut. I will be surprised if these players are actually suspended this season.

In Vilma's case, and likely Fujita. Tie it up in the courts and continue playing for as long as possible. Vilma is hanging on by a thread to his starting spot in NO. Missing time this year would pretty much be it for him.

Vilma does not care about guilt or innocence right now. He care about being paid.

He stands to lose like 4.8 million I think. So yeah I bet he cares!

And tying this up in court is his best possible option for ensuring he get's that money.

Worked for the Williams sisters.

Good point and I think that's exactly the game plan with Vilma.

The Saints brought in 3 FA LB's in the offseason. Vilma had a down year coming off a down year.

Personally I think NO would be better off if the suspension sticks.

quote:

Originally posted by Hungry5:
Worked for the Williams sisters.

Exactly.

GD, you are telling me hot sauce isn't hot.

Yeah, I thought Vilma was pretty much on his way out of NO before all of this started.

I think New Orleans assumed Vilma would be gone for a significant amount of time and signed his replacement because they had none on the roster.

Here's another gem from the NFL:

NFL backs of claim that Hargrove said "Give me my money"

They were so adamant it was Hargrove who said it and now they're not so sure. Really solid.

I like Roger's logic on why Hargrove's suspension was upheld though: maybe it wasn't Hargrove asking for payment, but the fact that someone said it means there was a bounty system (which I agree with) and since Hargrove was on the defense and presumably knew about the system then he's still guilty. Really solid Roger. By that logic, every at least every player on that defense should be suspended, maybe every player on the team because I'm sure they all knew about it.

quote:

By that logic

thought the same thing when I read that yesterday GD. if the fact that it was said is proof of guilt and not who said it, then they should all be suspended. and that's been lurking in the back of my mind throughout this - why just those 4 guys? if everyone knew it was going on, why just 4? and I go back to, so Hargrove is supsended for 8 games for "lying" to goddell. there's rog's precedent. is that really what he's trying to accomplish?

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnor...now-discredits-video

Seifert doesn't seem too overly impressed with the Hargrove case either.

Godspell is pissing his pants waiting to get bitch-slapped from another Class Action suit. This time from all the punters and place kickers suffering from concussion syndrome.

Next will be Cheerleaders suffering from sexual harassment and Achilles injuries.

He's got to at least look like a toughie in his shyster suit while the blood-suckers are circling.

Everything should be run by lawyers.

Seifert highlighted a part of the NFL statement against Hargrovre that I wondered what exactly it meant.

quote:

"Hargrove actively participated in the program while a member of the Saints." If the NFL has evidence of this, it remains private.

What does actively participated mean? We know Hargrove lied about the program (knowledge and participation).

quote:

Hargrove said only that "I denied all knowledge of a bounty or bounty program."

8 games is a lot for just lying about it... the league has to have something more on Hargrove and the others with respect to managing the program, right?

I don't give any despot the benefit of the doubt.

As bad as the bounty program was, Goodell's handling of it is taking the spotlight of the program itself. I really have no idea if the players have any chance of success in court, but a if the suit results in an injuction like in the Starcaps case and drags on for a couple of years or more, it will not be good for the NFL. I wonder if Goodell tries to broker some kind of deal. From his public persona, I would say it is not likely, but he has already made the transgressors into the victims so he might want to put an end to it.

quote:

Next will be Cheerleaders suffering from sexual harassment

Already happened, more or less

Speaking of being totally full of ****, here's an interesting write up on DeMaurice and his ongoing challenges with facts and truth

http://www.nationalfootballpos...Smiths-rhetoric.html

Both Goodell and Smith have failed miserably as the supposed leaders of this league

@JonVilma51
The nfl sent me a letter "demanding" I drop my defamation suit or else...lol or else wat?!?? They no likey me lawsuitey

Bronco's LB DJ Williams is currently serving a 6 game suspension for a positive banned substance offense.

Williams is attempting to appeal the suspension even though a Denver federal court judge recently threw out his request to overturn the suspension.

During his most recent sample collection (his third in the past year), the collector wittnesed a bottle fall from Williams waist during the test. Williams kicked the bottle into the locker room at the Broncos facility. The collector asked a trainer to go and retrieve the bottle. The collector came back with a different bottle from Williams locker. Williams said the bottle that fell was just an energy drink that was in his pocket.

Should also mention the first two samples Williams submitted were "not human urine" based on the lab results.

Williams lawyer had this to say after the "bottle kicking incedent".

quote:

This other allegation unfortunately reflects the irresponsible way the NFL is going about its business these days

That lawyer would be Peter Ginsberg. Lawyer for Jonathan Vilma.

I don't fully believe the NFL sent a letter worded "drop the suit or else" to Vilma. But I do think the NFL has had enough of Ginsberg.