Pos/Neg's Packers @ Steelers.

that was an entertaining game

+

Williams was terrific.

Adams is a true number 1 receiver.

-

Rodgers is done for the year.

Hundley did well enough that MM can keep saying "he's my guy" and keep him as the starter for the rest of the year, and back-up next year.

Hundley played a great game. Glad to see him make some positive strides. Williams continues to run hard. 

The FG decision was so incredibly wrong. 

I don’t know what to say about Dom anymore. It’s so pointless now. 

they scored 28 points......

i don’t want my boyfriend to come back......I know he wants to, but come on....look at the leading teams.  NOT THIS YEAR.  and really, a 62 yarder???  

Exactly, the decision to kick the 70 yard FG was crazyballs

Really good game...Hundley played very well. Going into Pittsburgh and playing that well was very surprising!. 

- The FG decision from 50+ yards was bad. Should have punted it away. 

+ Martinez was all over the place. 

+ Hundley actually threw a few passes to Nelson

ChilliJon posted:

I don’t know what to say about Dom anymore. It’s so pointless now. 

His D gave up 462 yards and over 30 points. That was with multiple dropped passes. Just to keep everyone in focus, those gawdy numbers somehow seemed like a good effort under Capers. That says a lot about just how bad his defenses are against competent QBs

Watching the game now.....Brett is looking like he knows what he’s doing.  I’m feeling pretty good about our substitute QB.  

++ Hundley is getting better, but MM made some adjustments to help him. He gave him quick slants and screens, then gave him a bit more protection to allow him to go medium range. MM called a decent game and gave the team a chance to win. Hundley just has to get rid of the ball. All the sacks are not the OL fault.

-- The field goal try was all wrong. He had a chance to flip the field and back Pitt up and make them go a minimum of 80. In an tight away game, you gotta take that.

++ Martinez. Where would we be without him? Guy is becoming a stud in the middle.

++ Williams did a darn nice job. I like the way our backfield is shaping up for next year.

-- Spit out the gum, Hundley. Maybe you could concentrate better.

-- The Triple D defense showed up again. D*** Dom D. Just. Want. Him. Gone.

Other than that, it was a fun game and they played a whole lot better than I expected.

+ Hundley, Martinez, Williams, Adams, Daniels

- Ha Ha (Joke) Clinton Dix playing not to get hurt again, McCarthy showing again what a bad in game decision maker he is, TT showing how Rodgers has made his career. 

It' amazing how one player has covered up so much garbage for so long. Maybe we can trade down in the draft for 6 or 7 7th round picks. 

i don’t think Hundley had a great game. He avoided the costly mistake, and made the plays that were there. That last drive was the best we’ve seen from him this season. 

But there was a real bad stretch of play after the Adams touchdown that involved 2 critical turnovers where they generated -9 yards and zero points. Hundley avoided the big mistake, which is a an improvement. He played better, but it was far from great. Rodgers wins this game going away, I think. At least with the turnovers. 

The pass rush wasn’t there, and because it wasn’t there Big Ben made all the plays they needed. Williams had nice moments. The defense forced a critical punt, which with Rodgers at QB might have made the difference. Perhaps they’re better, but they got embarrassed again by allowing the Steelers to go 35 yards in 17 seconds to win the game. The Steelers were also 8/13 on third down. 

It was a better game overall than last week, but there’s not enough to get excited about. They’re 5-6 in a sea of NFC mediocrity. With a couple of winnable games coming up, and Rodgers looking like he’s on target for a week 15 return, who freakin knows?

But I’m torn- change is needed, and a saved season and heroic run might give us another season of Capers nonsense. 

Just the negatives:

The 58yd field goal attempt was as dumb as it gets.

And then McCarthy still managing to be the dumbest tactician on the field despite Tomlin being opposite of him. Towards the end Tomlin letting them run down the clock after Hundley got sacked on first down should have been a blessing. But then McCarthy decides to a) not make an honest attempt to go win the game, and b) not give his team its best chance to make it to overtime.

Second down, dump off out of bounds, basically no more time off the clock. The announcers harp on GB for not forcing them to use a timeout, and they're not wrong. If the strategy is to get to overtime after the first down failure, then someone should tell the back to stay in bounds.

So anyway 3rd down comes, and Pit has all their timeouts. There's not that much time anyway.. 32 seconds I believe. At this point you're not going to accomplish by forcing them to give up their first time because it's not that likely they would get a chance to use all 3 timeouts on offense anyway.

Yet they run the give up play... which sure does take a timeout off the board, but only takes a couple of seconds off the clock, since you know, it's 3 yards and a cloud of dust.

Personally, I think you have to go with some kind of designed rollout and deep pass for no other reason than to burn some time off the clock. The fact that it actually gives you a chance of converting and maybe winning in regulation is just a bonus. For the record converting 3rd and 13 IS A HIGHER PROBABILITY than kicking a 58yd field goal outdoors. There's a very simple reason people only tend to attempt 58 yard field goals outdoors at the end of a half. The field position is just too big. Sure if there's not much downside, the half is expiring anyway, you may as well kick it. But to do it when he did is just pure idiocy.

Anyway. Vogel almost bailed out that disastrous offensive sequence with a fantastic punt. That actually put the clock kind of on our side all things considered, but of course in the end when it came down to it, Dom busted out his "let them get to exactly where they want for a field goal attempt" defense and it didn't really matter.

It just never gets any easier watching McCarthy in the final two minutes.

It. Is. Time.

+

Offense, Hundley only had a handful  of errors. Great game by him, the OL and Williams. 28 points is a great accomplishment for all of them on the road at Heinz Field

I'm still interested enough to find an online stream and run an HDMI cable to my TV next Sunday

-

Defense, it sucks. No point in ranting about Capers anymore, we all know

Bad decisions by McCarthy with the long FG attempt and clock management at the end

packerboi posted:

Paws:

Brett Hundley played pretty damn good for 4 quarters against a top 3 defense. On the road. Honestly, I don't know if 12 would have played much better.

Neg:

McCarthy's decision to kick a ridiculous FG was pure emotion and incredibly stupid. You can't make that mistake as a HC.

I think you have forgotten what AR12 can do.

I assure you on 2 of the 3 turnovers, AR12 makes the Steelers pay big time instead of gaining -9 yards.

I kickee touchdown. MM should be ashamed of himself for attempting that FG. Either punt or go for it on 4th down. Check your ego at the door.

+ ---- Entertaining game

- ---- I knew at some point the defense wouldn't be able to hold them. It was simply a matter of time.

Yeah Dom....Let's fake double-covering Antonio Brown with the game on the line - friggin jeeenyous!!

It will continue to be more of the same until he's gone. It really is a pointless conversation at this point.

^^^^Agreed. Time to rip off the band aid. MM had 12 seasons here, TT 13. That's an eternity in the NFL. Dom is years past his expiration date.

-   6 losses 10-6 will only make the playoffs with tiebreakers in the NFC this year. No more margin for error. Have to win every game from here on out.

Seen plenty of occasions where the offense under AR has periods during a game where it just can't do anything and fails to take advantage of turnovers. Can't really blame Hundley for a failure to be perfect. I give the defense credit for forcing three turnovers but it wasn't good enough in the end and it's a problem that's been there for years.

Pittsburgh is a superior team on both sides of the ball and there's next to zero margin for error. No way of telling how and if the game would have been different absent MM's inexcusable FG blunder but it's a mistake he simply can't make.  

The Packers beat the Steelers with AR12 at QB... there is no doubt in my mind. 

+ good to see Hundley play well

+I countered Hoccoli by watching the game on tape delay so I could fast forward through his annoying, self important penalty utterances.

- Hocculi's crew is so bad--they call al that ticky tacky crap--including many calls in the last minutes and then they don't call Watts leading with the crown of his helmet --Hundley is in the tackle box and is still a passer.

-No moral victory for McCarthy for me anyway--plus three turnovers and two bad coverage long TDs and you still lose...the series of drop backs passes to take the team out of field goal range and then giving the Steelers the ball at mid field, because of an asinine decision not to punt, lost a winnable game--McCarthy is below .350 without an all world QB, because that's who he is

I would expect the league to address the Watt helmet hit that wasn't called. According to MM concern over Hundley's health really screwed up that last series with the no-call.

If Rodgers got the bounces Hundley did, they would've won by 21 points.  I was all ready to give Hundley some praise but as soon as it gets a little hot the kid is completely shell shocked.  

I'm not going to rehash the defensive arguments.  It's not the talent level, it's The Wizard.  

"But there was a real bad stretch of play after the Adams touchdown that involved 2 critical turnovers where they generated -9 yards and zero points. Hundley avoided the big mistake, which is a an improvement. He played better, but it was far from great. Rodgers wins this game going away, I think. At least with the turnovers."

This. At times, Hundley looked competent, but there were also times where he played like he did against the Ravens. Missing easy passes. Crumbling in the pocket. Hesitating to throw.

Positives:

Hundley is making strides and I was very happy to see that he is starting to get it and played way better.  Some of his throws were clutch.

Return of the screen pass to the playbook

I thought the running game did a good job

Negatives:

The long FG was DUMB

Not scoring any points off of the turnovers.  You get some turnovers with that D you need to put up some points.

Regarding the playoffs, Tony Romo said on the Rams broadcast that he believes some NFC team will end up 10-6 and not make it in. We've got tiebreaker over Seattle and Dallas, but not Falcons. Carolina and Lions to be determined.

+ We have some tallant.

- We have sum dum coaches.

Why didn't Biegel play?

Because Kyler Fackrell had the best game of his NFL career against Baltimore. 

Henry posted:

If Rodgers got the bounces Hundley did, they would've won by 21 points.  I was all ready to give Hundley some praise but as soon as it gets a little hot the kid is completely shell shocked.  

I'm not going to rehash the defensive arguments.  It's not the talent level, it's The Wizard.  

Agree on the first, not so sure on the second. There was no pass rush against one of the league's most dynamic offenses, non-blitz guys were getting stonewalled constantly and the Packers were in it until the end. 

McCarthy  is ridiculously conservative, and it shows with little time left almost every time. I liked that Capers went for the blitz there, You won't cover Brown for very long and holding them to a stadium-longest field goal seems like a McCarthy play. Williams going Oob was a killer, arguably so was not going for 2.

Hundley was great.  Complete reversal from last week.  Maybe could knock him for 2 of the sacks but no turnovers and a QB rating of 134.3 in a tough road game.  Backup QBs don't get much better than that.

Defense was just as poor as the Detroit game.  Zero pass rush and the Steeler pass-catchers just had their way with the secondary.  Steelers had at least one first down on every drive.  Generally a defense that gets three turnovers had a pretty good day.  But not when that goes with allowing 462 yards, 28 first downs, 8/13 third down conversions (really 9/13 when one series went to fourth down which was successfully converted).  

Fair enough, see my Fackrell comment.  I don't think the defense is devoid of talent but they can never seem to overcome or at least patch their deficiencies.  You can't watch guys like Daniels grinding it out throughout the whole game only to watch the scheme fail again and again when it really counts.  

Ha Ha Clinton Dix looks like he's trying to play his way out of town. Dude is avoiding contact at all cost and he may have ended the game without a grass stain. 

Coaches and players must see that on game film. He's stealing out there. 

Hundley plays well when he they set up the scheme so that he has quick or very clear reads. When he has to think too much, he tends to freeze (like the Watt sack on the final drive). Overall, he looked like a guy who would start for 6-8 teams in the NFL right now. Before this game, he looked like a guy who might be out of the league in 2 years. I said this last night in the game thread, but why did it take 6 games to look like this? Maybe he just needed live game reps, but QBing even half this good gets us wins against the Lions and Ravens.

Hundley played well but Collinsworth and others who said it wouldn't have made any difference to have Rodgers are clearly smoking something. Hundley's TDs were to a wide open guy on a blown coverage, a screen, and a nice pass on a stop and go that Adams took to the house. Those are all throws any average NFL QB would make (although a lot of teams don't have guys that can make them). His best throw was probably the 4th down conversion to Adams on the game tying drive. If Rodgers was playing and the turnovers were 3 to 0, we win by 14 points.

PackerJoe posted:

Hundley was great.  Complete reversal from last week.  Maybe could knock him for 2 of the sacks but no turnovers and a QB rating of 134.3 in a tough road game.  Backup QBs don't get much better than that.

Defense was just as poor as the Detroit game.  Zero pass rush and the Steeler pass-catchers just had their way with the secondary.  Steelers had at least one first down on every drive.  Generally a defense that gets three turnovers had a pretty good day.  But not when that goes with allowing 462 yards, 28 first downs, 8/13 third down conversions (really 9/13 when one series went to fourth down which was successfully converted).  

The defense was a LOT better than against Detroit. Pittsburgh has two hall of fame players on their offense and a third guy (Bell) who'll be in the conversation if he plays another 4-5 years at this level. Their offensive line is top 5 in the league. I'm not sure if any player on the Detroit offense is better than the equivalent guy at their position for the Steelers. It isn't even close across the board.

The key play on the winning drive was a catch by Brown that maybe a couple other guys in the league can make. Sometimes the other guys are just too good.

That was a good enough defensive effort to win most games if Rodgers is your QB.

antiworst posted:

Ha Ha Clinton Dix looks like he's trying to play his way out of town. Dude is avoiding contact at all cost and he may have ended the game without a grass stain. 

Coaches and players must see that on game film. He's stealing out there. 

yep, I have no idea what's going on with him but none of it is any good.  AKA, The Invisible Safety.

Regarding comments that Rodgers probably doesn’t make that big of a difference last night. 

You’d be hard pressed to find anyone that would wager Rodgers can’t at least put Crosby in great FG position if he’s given 1:20 remaining and a couple timeouts. With that kind of time left AR probably scores 7. 

Hundley went 3 and out and didn’t manage the offense very well on that drive. So yes, Hundley put together a solid body of work last night. But to say Rodgers doesn’t make a big difference is quite a reach. 

A Dom defense did as well as could be expected.  But (somewhat) in Dom's defense, Bell and Brown are elite talents that are hard to stop.  That said, you have to sell out a bit to shut them down (doubling Brown) and take your chances on having someone else beat you.  The recurring injuries in the secondary (King, then Randall out with cramps), and lack of pass rush hurt in that effort.

As for Hundley, he took some steps today, but it's clear to me the offense is very limited with him. Some of his bad habits showed up in the 3Q, but he was also trying to step up instead of backing or bailing out of the pocket too soon.  It will be informative if he builds on that and progresses further in the next 2 games against weak opponents.

+ If Randall keeps his head on straight, he will be fine.  He's the best playmaking DB in the secondary.

- Lack of (available) changeup back to Williams makes the offense predictable. 

- Having to cover up for Spriggs as a liability also limited offense.

+ Glad Ahmad Brooks is back.  He's a fine player.

MichiganPacker posted:

PackerJoe posted:

Hundley was great.  Complete reversal from last week.  Maybe could knock him for 2 of the sacks but no turnovers and a QB rating of 134.3 in a tough road game.  Backup QBs don't get much better than that.

Defense was just as poor as the Detroit game.  Zero pass rush and the Steeler pass-catchers just had their way with the secondary.  Steelers had at least one first down on every drive.  Generally a defense that gets three turnovers had a pretty good day.  But not when that goes with allowing 462 yards, 28 first downs, 8/13 third down conversions (really 9/13 when one series went to fourth down which was successfully converted).  

The defense was a LOT better than against Detroit. Pittsburgh has two hall of fame players on their offense and a third guy (Bell) who'll be in the conversation if he plays another 4-5 years at this level. Their offensive line is top 5 in the league. I'm not sure if any player on the Detroit offense is better than the equivalent guy at their position for the Steelers. It isn't even close across the board.

The key play on the winning drive was a catch by Brown that maybe a couple other guys in the league can make. Sometimes the other guys are just too good.

That was a good enough defensive effort to win most games if Rodgers is your QB.

Wow, how the expectations defensive football have completely eroded after watching McCarthy/Capers brand of football the last few years.

462 yards allowed

8/13 on third down, 1/1 on fourth down

28 first downs

at least one first down on every drive

341 yards passing, 121 yards rushing (5.0 yards per carry)

73% completion percentage

red zone efficiency = 100%

But yeah, all that defensive poop but it still may have been good enough with Aaron Rodgers playing quarterback.  It's pretty obvious to most fans now, the Green Bay Packers are a mediocre to bad football team that happens to have a great QB who will bail them out the majority of the time.

packerboi posted:

The Packers IMO must win 3 straight to get to 8-6. Then Rodgers has a reason to return. That's a tall order.

Rodgers is eligible to begin practicing this week, Friday I believe. So, he has been throwing, 50 yarders, with no pain, but has yet to have an x-ray. I can see this team winning the next two with Hundley, if he continues what we saw last night. The @CAR game would be tough with Rodgers.

+ Martinez, Williams, Burnett, stepping up in the pocket Hundley, Adams, Daniels, Fackrel?

- Dix ('sup dude?), Dom - stick to man, man., the try at 57y FG - they had momentum from the TO, pin them deep and give your D a chance. Going 80+ yards changes the play caller early in the drive, compared to starting at mid-field.

Not defending Dom, because there is no way he/they should let Brown and Bell beat them the way those two did. That said, the way the league is now, really good offenses will always out-dual even top tier defenses. see Rodgers vs PIT (ranked #1) in the SB. Look what Hundley was able to do. Rodgers would have scored before the half and at the end of the game. Ben is tough and see defenses well.