Separating MM from TT

FreeSafetyI wonder what the poor people are doing?

I don't know if this is a fair or accurate thing to do but I think it is interesting to look at.

From taking over a mess of a team 5 years ago, for 2009 TT has given MM the following position groups:

DL...Jenkins, Pickett and Jolly...I can live with that.
LB...Kampman, Barnett, Chillar, Mathews with Popinga and Bishop as backups...pretty good group.
Secondary...Harris, Bigby, Collins, Woodson and Williams...most teams would love to have that group.
WR...Driver, Jennings, Jones, Nelson...most teams would love to have that group
TE...Lee, Finley, Havner...I have no complaints with them as a group
FB...Hall, Kuhn, and Johnson...TT has given MM and young punisher in Johnson, a all around good FB in Kuhn and a quicker option with good ST skills in Hall.
RB...Grant, Jackson, Wynn/Green...I think TT got suckered with Grant's 2007 production, he needs to make some improvements here.
QB...Rodgers, Flynn...Rodgers could be special and I can live without a veteran backup and stick with Flynn
OL...Clifton, Colledge, Spitz, Sitton, Barbre with Lang, Wells, and Tauscher as backups...TT's worst group but Colledge, Spitz and Sitton can play in this league for years to come, Lang may be a keeper as well...Barbre is still a real question mark. I really can't fault TT for not trying here, I mean he is not recycling other teams' veteran castoffs, he has brought in some young talent. What bothers me about this group is the fact that Lang has played so well, he has the ability, yet when Clifton goes down MM's solution is to put Colledge at LT and leave Lang on the bench....that is poor coaching.

How many teams are set up with a better 53 man roster?

My own personal conclusion is that TT has provided enough talent to put together a real good team. My biggest complaint is with the picks of Hawk, Harrell and now maybe Raji. A #5, #16 and a #9 that are all basically non factors on this team.

I think TT has shown that he is improving the talent of this team every year and a better coach would get a lot more out of what he has supplied.

11/2/0912:42 PM

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

lukeyMember

TT added Rodgers, Jennings, Woodson, Pickett, and not much else (despite the Pro Bowl, I think Collins is mediocre at best). Not impressive for five year's work--especially when you allow the offensive line to go from a strength to an utter sieve.

11/2/0912:47 PM

johnnie grayMember

i've concluded that mccarhty does not cut it as a head coach. if manages to go 10-6 and the team makes the playoffs, i'd give him another year. otherwise, time for a fresh approach. the team is sloppy, makes too many mistakes and appears to be undisciplined. this is the nfl. win or get out of the way.

11/2/0912:50 PM

kcpuckMember

quote:
Originally posted by FreeSafety:
I think TT has shown that he is improving the talent of this team every year and a better coach would get a lot more out of what he has supplied.

The only problem I have with this post is to even "maybe" Raji as a bad pick after 7 games into his career; especially when he hasn't been healthy.

11/2/0912:50 PM

GBP1Member

But is it "Fair and Balanced"?

11/2/091:05 PM

BorisPerson Man Camera Dildo Shop - NFLFU®

7 games in and not one statement win from the Packers and MM. Last year we had a couple of games vs. the Colts and vs. the Bears where we dominated. Those were "A" games.

We STILL haven't seen that this year against a good team. I'm throwing out the Browns/Rams/Lions games because those teams are really bad.

I'm very disappointed in MM and the entire coaching staff.

How do you leave Jared Allen unblocked? It's completely inexcusable

11/2/091:38 PM

SepMember

For that matter, Boris, how do you leave ANY blind-side DE unblocked on a pass play?

11/2/091:55 PM

PakrzFREEZE!

MM can't leave soon enough for my liking. Time for TT to get the head coaching position "fixed."

11/2/092:02 PM

grbaypackMember

They had all that tape plus a previous encounter with the *******, and still couldn't figure out how to slow down Allen, or Favre. They allowed 14 sacks in two games to them, and sat back as Favre posted all world numbers ... twice. It's ridiculous, and it definately calls into question a lot of things about that coaching staff.

11/2/092:04 PM

trumpMember

If MM doesn't find a woman, are we still having this chat?

It has gone downhill since he got married ... He's comfortable.

Murphy/TT needs to send a message that it is not a forever job in Green Bay just because the folks are so accommodating and obviously crazy about their Packers ...

11/2/092:16 PM

CUPackFanMember

TT has done a great job at getting very solid football players. The problem is that this team lacks the difference makers that take a team from good to great. Right now the only player on defense that could be considered a difference maker is Woodson. On offense, I don't see any (although Rodgers and Jennings are close). Time will tell but for this team to take the next step, some of the young guys like Rodgers, Jennings, Raji, Matthews, Collins, Finley, Lang and Sitton need to step up and become All-Pro's.

-Indy has Manning, Wayne, Sanders and Freeney
-Minnesota has Hutchinson, Peterson, K Williams, Winfield and Allen
-New Orleans has Brees and Sharper (there has to be more, but I don't know the Saints very well). And yes, I consider Sharper to be a difference maker with the season he has put together so far.

The Packers need a few guys like this if they want to be a Super Bowl contender.

11/2/092:43 PM

FreeSafetyI wonder what the poor people are doing?

What has Sharper done this year that Nick Collins didn't do last year?

Coaches get the best out of their players.

They don't whine and complain that they don't have enough "difference makers".

I am not saying this is the greatest team ever assembled, but there is a ton of underutilized talent here if you ask me.

11/2/092:58 PM

PackerRickMember

quote:
Originally posted by Sep Woodson:
For that matter, Boris, how do you leave ANY blind-side DE unblocked on a pass play?

That was my complaint last season against TB.The RDE came in unblocked, hit Rodgers as he threw, the ball was intercepted clinching the game for TB, and MM put the blame on Rodgers after the game for not picking up the hot read. Many in here supported MM saying that was the blocking scheme on that play. I still think it was BS. How can an OT line up as the last guy on the line and not realize or be assigned to block that DE?

11/2/093:06 PM

PackerRickMember

quote:
Originally posted by trump:
If MM doesn't find a woman, are we still having this chat?

It has gone downhill since he got married ... He's comfortable.

I started getting that same thought last season. The guy was working day and night the first year he got the job and you know when he got married, had a kid, plus scored a lifetime contract that those days were over.

11/2/093:09 PM

tsr86freeMember

quote:
Originally posted by FreeSafety:
I am not saying this is the greatest team ever assembled, but there is a ton of underutilized talent here if you ask me.

Agreed.

11/2/093:16 PM

SepMember

quote:
Originally posted by PackerRick:
quote:
Originally posted by trump:
If MM doesn't find a woman, are we still having this chat?

It has gone downhill since he got married ... He's comfortable.

I started getting that same thought last season. The guy was working day and night the first year he got the job and you know when he got married, had a kid, plus scored a lifetime contract that those days were over.

I mentioned this same thing to my dad yesterday, but had been thinking it for several weeks.

11/2/093:29 PM

FANtasticMember

quote:
Originally posted by kcpuck:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeSafety:
I think TT has shown that he is improving the talent of this team every year and a better coach would get a lot more out of what he has supplied.

The only problem I have with this post is to even "maybe" Raji as a bad pick after 7 games into his career; especially when he hasn't been healthy.

Raji is going to be a good one IMO. He's just gotten off to a rough start. Not exactly a unique experience for a rookie. Once he's completely healed, which may not be until the offseason, I think he'll be fine. Harrell on the other hand has a bad back - good luck playing in the NFL with that.

11/2/093:42 PM

PackerRickMember

quote:
Originally posted by CUPackFan:
TT has done a great job at getting very solid football players.

The problem is he's failed miserably building the OL. And that weakness kills the running game and partially negates a great QB like Rodgers. So some of the good units he's put together aren't that good because they're hindered by another unit they depend on. In short, a team is as strong as it's weakest unit so TT hasn't done a great job yet.

11/2/093:50 PM

The FerretMember

TT was a student of Wolf who also had rather shoddy lines. If nothing else Wolf seemed to believe in the plug-n-play principle instead of paying his better lineman and keeping them around to become a cohesive unit.

But at least Wolf's lines protected the QB.

11/2/094:33 PM

TDMember

The Packers offensive philosphy is awful and I don't think it's the player personnel. Look at the Texans for example of a team. They don't have a bunch of Top picks playing on the line. Duane Brown was a late first playing LT. I think the Packers would be wise to fire Campen and bring someone else in. Who was the coach that ran the OL in Denver in the 90's?

11/2/094:37 PM

H5Keyboard Warrior, troll hunter

quote:
Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:
Who was the coach that ran the OL in Denver in the 90's?

No thanks.

11/2/094:39 PM

lukeyMember

quote:
Originally posted by The Ferret:
TT was a student of Wolf who also had rather shoddy lines. If nothing else Wolf seemed to believe in the plug-n-play principle instead of paying his better lineman and keeping them around to become a cohesive unit.

But at least Wolf's lines protected the QB.

Wolf built decent lines form '95-'98. As that unit fell apart, he drafted the pieces of what would be an exceptional line from '01-'04.

11/2/094:41 PM

TDMember

Honestly, how do we know none of these guys are no good? I remember Rivera being ripped a new one on MJS and this forum. I believe good coaches can get guys on the OL to play.

You can't teach someone to throw the ball farther or Grant to run faster or WR's to act smarter. OL can be groomed into player's regardless of where they were drafted.

11/2/094:44 PM

CUPackFanMember

Just to clarify my original post, not having enough difference makers is a problem on TT and MM. This isn't a nature vs nurture argument, it's both. TT has to draft talented players and MM has to develop them. I don't think you can "separate" that. For example, does Barbre suck b/c he isn't talented (TT's fault) or because he isn't being taught how to succeed (MM's fault).

And last year Collins was making plays like Sharper is this year. But this year Collins just hasn't made those plays.

11/2/095:21 PM

Max HeadroomMember

Again, I'm anti-TT, but he should not get fired after this season if things fall apart or they fail to make the playoffs.

He should have a opportunity to hire a new coach, if it's necessary, and also protect our best player (Rodgers) regardless of who is coaching us in the future.

I think, despite out O-line, we can turn things around with playing to our strengths and converting to a more dink and dunk West Coast style (see the third quarter).

Thompson is a smart man and I don't know how he will do with a strong willed coach, like a Cowher, but a Tony Dungy (see Peyton Manning) would definitely be more in TT's style.

TT should get another few seasons to turn it around, but I think MM may be on his last rope however.

With that said, we have a decent shot at the playoffs and I think we can control our own destiny with it to a certain extent (when it comes to a wild card birth). No playoffs, then no MM.

11/2/095:33 PM

justanotherpackerfanMember

You know, FreeSafety, your list isn't too bad. I do like most of the Packers players on defense but the o-line just overtakes anybody there is on offense. The O-line is very very bad. We may be satisfied with Spitz, Colledge and Sitton, but that's just because that's the best we have. I can't believe that 5 years later we are still worried/complaining about the o-line (and not because of bad luck injuries or players leaving)...face it, if 5 years TT has not found a stud offensive lineman. Maybe, he hasn't tried to find one, but that doesn't make me feel any better about it.

I too, am not a huge TT fan. But, I give him his due for building a great receiveing corp, haveing a great young QB and finding talent for the defense (now if only that talent would start playing like they should).

To get back to the idea of the thread...is the talent capable of playing better than it has...definitely. And that has to fall 90% on the coaching. But the other 10% of the blame goes to the offensive line....and that is TT's fault.

*disclaimer: all percentages are merely estimates and have no scientific backing

11/2/095:46 PM

Rusty LarueMember

The one achilles heal that TT may have is an ability to assess talent along the offensive and defensive line.

In Thompson's tenure the Packers have had one very good year. In that year the offensive line was still being anchored by Clifton and Tauscher who were holdovers from the Wolf era. Favre was given time to throw that year and they had a decent running game. Sure, Rodgers will hold the ball too long from time to time, but most of the time he's running for his life.

The team is showing no ability to run block or pass block. The defensive line has struggled to get any type of pressure this year. So while the linebackers and secondary may be decent they cannot cover people forever and the Front 4 has been marginal this year.

The Packers are 4-3, but you have to wonder how good they really are. 3 wins were against the Lions, Rams and Browns. I'm guessing a good college team could handle those teams. The other win was a squeaker against the Bears where Jay Cutler seemed to be confused as to which team he was throwing to. Thankfully the schedule remains pretty soft.

11/2/096:41 PM

PackerRickMember

quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Larue:
The one achilles heal that TT may have is an ability to assess talent along the offensive and defensive line.

I'll agree about TT and the OL but not so sure about the DL.

I think we have decent players on the DL and they do well against the run. The lack of pass rush might be a LB problem because in a 3-4 a lot of the pressure should come from the OLBs. We have some guys miscast, most notably Kampman. He's never going to be fast enough to play LB in the 3-4. If we had two OLBs like Clay Matthews I think the defense would look much better.

11/2/099:28 PM

TDMember

TT's compounded the problem by holding onto Kampman instead of shopping him. An extra second plus could've made waves on getting someone like Clint Sintom or a hybrid OLB.

11/2/099:36 PM

TTmustStayMember

quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Larue:
The one achilles heal that TT may have is an ability to assess talent along the offensive and defensive line.

In Thompson's tenure the Packers have had one very good year. In that year the offensive line was still being anchored by Clifton and Tauscher who were holdovers from the Wolf era. Favre was given time to throw that year and they had a decent running game. Sure, Rodgers will hold the ball too long from time to time, but most of the time he's running for his life.

The team is showing no ability to run block or pass block. The defensive line has struggled to get any type of pressure this year. So while the linebackers and secondary may be decent they cannot cover people forever and the Front 4 has been marginal this year.

The Packers are 4-3, but you have to wonder how good they really are. 3 wins were against the Lions, Rams and Browns. I'm guessing a good college team could handle those teams. The other win was a squeaker against the Bears where Jay Cutler seemed to be confused as to which team he was throwing to. Thankfully the schedule remains pretty soft.

How does, Pittsburgh, Dallas, baltimore, San Fran, Arizona & Bears lean the schedule to "remaining pretty soft"? The sad part of this year is if TT gave us an average line we would have had a chance in every game. Look at what our offense has done with 30 sacks in seven games and AR running for his life. AR is just trying not to have a career ending injury behind our O-line, can't blame him. I am afraid this season is going to be one of "should have been", if you can't run or even have someone in backfield inside redzone, you cannot win in NFL. Tired of shotgun everytime we get inside redzone, IMHO, MM needs to give up play calling and work on disciplining his players and have consequences for repeating the same ol' penalities, they along with the O-Line are just killing our potentially better than last year season!!

11/2/0910:04 PM

GoallineLarge Antenna

Wow, TT must posting? Did the Packers lose or something?

11/2/0910:07 PM

Anthony DilweedMember

quote:
Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:
Honestly, how do we know none of these guys are no good? I remember Rivera being ripped a new one on MJS and this forum. I believe good coaches can get guys on the OL to play.

You can't teach someone to throw the ball farther or Grant to run faster or WR's to act smarter. OL can be groomed into player's regardless of where they were drafted.

usually that is evident on the field regardless of scheme. if a guy is getting beat like a drum, the best thing a coach can do is try and cover him up and help with a running back or TE.

just like you can't necessary coach a qb to throw the ball farther, you can coach him not to throw into triple coverage and simplify the game for him. but if he can't throw an accurate ball, he can't throw an accurate ball and odds are you can't do a lot about that.

i just rarely if ever see packer linemen winning head to head matchups - other than the guy they tried at left tackle this time did a lot better than the one last time. allen disrupted but not every passing play. so maybe that guy has a fighting chance.

i will say this, it doesn't make any sense to have one injury force multiple position changes along the line. you are asking for problems with a depth chart constructed in that manner.

11/3/0912:05 PM

Rusty LarueMember

TTmust stay,

The next 4 games for the Packers should be very winnable. They go on the road to play the Bucs and Lions. Both of those teams are horrible. They have home games against the Cowboys and 49ers. Neither of those teams, especially at Lambeau, should frighten anyone.

Then they get a tough 3 game stretch. They are home against the Ravens. While the Ravens are a decent team, they do not look to be world beaters.

They then go on the road against the Bears and Steelers. Winning those two will be tough.

Then it's back home against Seattle in a game they should win and then on the road to Arizona. Depending on which Cardinals team shows up they could win that one.

So they have 5 pretty easy games (@Bucs, Cowboys, 49ers, @Lions, Seahawks)

2 winnable games (Ravens, @Cardinals)

2 tough games (@Steelers, @Bears)

If this team is any good at all they should go at least 6-3 and finish up 10-6.

11/3/0912:58 PM

grbaypackMember

I think we'll all be feeling a little better again after the Packers stomp the Bucs, but upon the return to action at Lambeau the Cowboys will be there to hand us yet another home loss.

Sorry, but the only 'easy' games I see remaining are against the Bucs and Lions.

11/3/091:01 PM

Ubetcha

I think TT thought he go out and find some grunts to plug in tho O-Line and maintain a status quo. Losing Tauscher and a fading Clifton really left this line with no "glue", no real established experience to lead this group; he is now scrambling bringing back Tauscher, too little, too late. Combine this with A-Rod's reluctance to "throw it away" and you've got trouble.

11/3/094:03 PM

VApackfanMember

TT has had five years to field a winning team and I think many expect they would be a solid playoff team by now. Now we don't know how this season will turn out but if the Packers don't go pretty far in this years playoffs I think it's either TT or the Coach. I'd give TT one more shot but not MM.

11/3/094:20 PM

TTmustStayMember

quote:
Originally posted by Goalline:
Wow, TT must posting? Did the Packers lose or something?

I am Back...win or lose I love my packers. Just not a big fan of the "Dynamic Duo". Our Offense is so explosive, can only imagine what they would be like with an "average" O-Line, they would be unstoppable and we would have rolled the Vikes twice!! My problem is you knew it was going to happen even before they started the season, no chemistry, ZBS sucks and has to go, and finally to damn young with no veteran experience to lead the young guys. Straighten out the O-line, shore up our back 4 and we are here to stay for a long time, just not going to happen this year. Playoffs are a big stretch at this point, but that is why they play the games...

11/3/099:37 PM

Grave DiggerMember

Weren't people saying we didn't have talent on the DLine or at LB after last season? Suddenly with the addition of a couple good coaches, those positions became one of our strengths. Maybe there's something to this hiring good position coaches thing.

11/3/099:51 PM

Diggr14Member

quote:
Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Weren't people saying we didn't have talent on the DLine or at LB after last season? Suddenly with the addition of a couple good coaches, those positions became one of our strengths. Maybe there's something to this hiring good position coaches thing.

There is something to hiring good Head Coaches and GMs too. For all this supposed talent that we have it sure as hell isnt turning into wins with these goofs.

11/3/099:52 PM

HerschelMember

I saw the thread title and though "Oh lord, here comes a crowbar joke". Interesting thread though.

I guess it does come down to either McCarthy and Co. not developing the slew of guys he's been given or does TT draft bad linemen. Looking at the starters for TT where he relies so heavily on the draft:

Starters TT Drafted:
Rodgers
Kuhn
Jennings
Colledge
Spitz
Sitton
Barbre (although this should be Tauscher in teh other column on principle)
Jolly
Matthews
Hawk
Bigby
Collins

Starters he didn't:
Grant
Driver
Lee
Clifton
Pickett
Jenkins
Barnett
Kampman
Harris
Woodson

11/3/0910:09 PM

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