Other teams' success going for 2 has nothing to do with GB. GB O with serious limitations in the red zone all year, including this game. Especially considering the D appeared able to keep ARZ out of the end zone if having to go to OT. The D has had a high number of red zone defenses, keeping teams to 3 even with 3 downs GTG. I would have banked on the D too.
Boris posted:Jon Gruden did. And made it. Others have too.
Pittsburgh goes for 2 all the time, Make most of 'em
Sure they do. How often do they go for two points when the outcome will determine the game?
At the time I was also wondering the pros and cons of going for 2. The best I could come with was as follows:
Pros - you don't give them the ball or give them multiple chances in OT.
Cons - The offensive play was spotty for GB.
History - The last time I know that a coach decided to go for the win instead of a tie was the Ice Bowl. GB was behind 14-17 - a FG would tie it (and send it to OT) - a TD would win it. We all knew how that turned out.
Before GB kicked the extra point, I came to the conclusion that I would go for it if it were up to me. It would only take a 2 yard Hail Mary.
"Run the .... play and let's get the .... outta here!"
I understand banking on the D & as I said earlier in most cases I kick the 1.
The only way to win this particular game was go for 2 & make it.
You play to win the game
In the end, I'm glad they didn't win because Carolina would have destroyed them in the NFC CG unless the defense is going to score 3 touchdowns. Down our top 4 WR's? no chance
The Crusher posted:Monday Morning Hindsight...lol Not to mention you have Abby and Janis as your #1 and #2 for your 2 point conversion. I know Abby caught one but you wonder how many 2 point conversion plays that Janis had even practiced for. Janis was great on a couple hail mary's but I don't know if MM wants to put the entire game into a 2 point conversion fielding that receiving core.
Guess you forgot about Richard Rodgers, Kuhn, Starks & Lacy. Maybe even Tretter at tackle eligible play
It's 2 yards. 2 yards
Ghost of Lambeau posted:"Run the .... play and let's get the .... outta here!"
DING DING!
If the game would have been like the 2009 playoff game in Arizona and you'd have had the choice in a game that would have been 45-45 going into OT, you'd have gone for two because neither defense was stopping the other.
In this game, the Cardinals had scored two TDs the entire game. One required going for it on 4th and 1 from the 10 and the other was a ball batted up into the end zone. Our defense had held them in check all game. Even if you have to kick off, you make one stop and get the ball and you can win even by driving to the 35 yard line.
Our offense had scored 2 TDs all game and one obviously required a 4th and 20 conversion and what might have been the best Hail Mary pass in the NFL playoff history. We've struggled for years scoring TDs in the red zone instead of having to settle for FGs. What play would you have run from the 2 for the 2 point try with what might have been the worst 3rd/4th short team that made the playoffs? Here's the stats as of a month ago (from Demovsky at ESPN) on their 3rd and 1 success rate as of the Dallas game earlier this year.
http://espn.go.com/blog/green-...on-third-and-1-plays
So far this season, the Packers have been in third-and-1 situations 22 times. They have converted just 11 of them. Their 50 percent success rate is tied for 30th in the NFL. Only the Dallas Cowboys, who come to Lambeau Field on Sunday, have been worse (at 41.2 percent).
Now 50% doesn't sound so bad, but this is for all 3rd and 1s that include many situations in which the defense has to defend the whole field. The defense only has to worry about 12 yards of depth in this situation. Again, which play would you run.
1. The patented Kuhn dive
2. A fade to Janis? Not before this weekend, but that might have been the best play if it was required.
3. A slant to Abby? - they just showed this for the Redskins game.
4. The patented "Lacy dive into the middle of the line for no gain"
5. Richard Rodgers? James Jones vs. Patrick Peterson on a back shoulder? Rodgers on a QB draw?
It's easy in retrospect to say you'd go for two, but given the game situation and their offensive personnel, I think MM made the right decision. Capers makes a good play call and CM3 and Mike Neal both have chances to make plays for sacks. Then even after they blow a coverage - probably by Peppers, a hustling CM3, Sam Shields, and others have a chance to stop Fitzgerald at midfield. Burnett misses Fitzgerald at about the 15. That's 4-5 of your best defensive players that had chances to make plays that may have forced a FG.
Again, if you have Randy Moss, Gronkowski, Dez Bryant type guys that are basically unguardable on fades one-on-one, you'd think harder about going for it. You either take your chances on a fade route or the defense puts 2 guys on those guys and it opens it up for someone else to get a favorable matchup. No one on the Packers is going to get doubled in that situation.
Take 10 delay of game penalties and heave a 60yd bomb to Janis. No brainer.
After thinking about this a bit more, and knowing what happened in OT, I think they should have gone for 2.
Good points all around.
To me, I am not looking at this game in a vacuum. I am considering the history of this team with these coaches in OT.
Rusillo and Kanell just did a segment that said the Packers have now lost 3 consecutive OT playoff games where AR did not see the field in OT.
It is not retrospect. I am sure I am not the only fan that wanted to avoid OT and said so at the time. And I'll say it now for the future. With this team and these coaches, I want the to avoid OT whenever possible, win or lose in regulation.
After thinking about it a bit more and knowing what happened in overtime, I would have dropped all 11 back into coverage and made Palmer beat them with his legs.
You really want your season to come down to a 2 point conversion? I didn't think so.
Yes, I really did.
Jelly posted:You really want your season to come down to a 2 point conversion? I didn't think so.
You'd rather pin your hopes on a coin toss and a scenario where the road team has only won 39% of the time the last 3 seasons? Since 2013 the road team has won 39% of overtime games.
The 2 pointer is a 50/50 proposition. At some point you have to make a play to win the game. Forgetting everything that happened up to that point, that was their best chance to win the game.
At that point it is time to dig deep into your bag of tricks. Did you hear LF talking about the shovel pass TD? They hadn't run that play all year, they were saving it for just the right moment.
The Packers bag of tricks for this game probably included Cobb.
When you have em on the ropes go for the knockout punch. I'm with those thinking we should have gone for the 2 point conversion. We had just deflated them big time and had time to call a play that very well could have worked against a shell shocked, tired defense.
WolfPack posted:
The refs would have called Off Pass Int.
Just let us have ONE thing to smile about other than the fact a 49'er fan said to me, "You could be a Niner fan."
If MM goes for two and they don't get it the whole world is screaming how he was scared to go to over time and that lead him to botch the end of game decision process once again. Suddenly everyone calling for the 2 pt attempt here flips the script because "he should know better" as the coach. And they'd be right.
There's a package for 2 pt conversions. I will guarantee that Janis isn't anywhere near it. He already wasn't in sync with Rodgers earlier in the game close to the goal line. I've been singing 83's praises as much as anyone, but that's not the place for him.
How many drops has Abby had? No way I trust that guy with 1 play win or go home.
Jones is covered by Peterson. Attacking that is a lot lower than 50-50
The 2 pt package was severely limited by the loss of Cobb. It's not as easy as just plugging 84 in there if he hasn't had practice reps there.
The 2pt conversion would have been bold with Nelson/Cobb/Jones/Montgomery. Crazy to think they should have gone for it with 2 guys in Abby and Janis who have barely any experience on the field.
The GBP Rules posted:Jelly posted:You really want your season to come down to a 2 point conversion? I didn't think so.
You'd rather pin your hopes on a coin toss and a scenario where the road team has only won 39% of the time the last 3 seasons? Since 2013 the road team has won 39% of overtime games.
The 2 pointer is a 50/50 proposition. At some point you have to make a play to win the game. Forgetting everything that happened up to that point, that was their best chance to win the game.
At that point it is time to dig deep into your bag of tricks. Did you hear LF talking about the shovel pass TD? They hadn't run that play all year, they were saving it for just the right moment.
MM biggest liability is not being aggressive enough. However, I like my chances going into OT with the much better QB. And as stated above, the personnel was not on the field to even consider calling the play. Especially in the playoffs.
That's not how math works. If your personnel is all messed up due to injury, you have a better chance of converting a single play than you do of having sustained success moving the ball down the field for a field goal or touchdown in overtime.
I'll call the play. Abby out far left. Show run, with RRodgers blocking right side, Kuhn and Lacy in the backfield, Jones out far right, play action fake, Rodgers rolling to his left, Abby goes into end zone, shakes to his right. If he's open, Rodgers tosses it, if not Arod makes a dash for the goal line away from the strong side....
Offense had short yardage and red zone struggles all year. AR threw a fourth down pass into the dirt on the previous series and I'm not quite sure where all the confidence in the Packer offense is coming from. Defense was playing reasonably well and you kick the XP and take your chances in OT.
michiganjoe posted:Offense had short yardage and red zone struggles all year. AR threw a fourth down pass into the dirt on the previous series and I'm not quite sure where all the confidence in the Packer offense is coming from. Defense was playing reasonably well and you kick the XP and take your chances in OT.
Absolutely.
Going for 2 in my opinion is defeatist. Like, we need to win it now or else!
titmfatied posted:If MM goes for two and they don't get it the whole world is screaming how he was scared to go to over time
That is my whole point. Based on his history with this team and Dom Capers, he should be afraid of OT. Very afraid. He should avoid it whenever possible.
The offense had two possessions at the end of regulation to score a winning TD.
They couldn't even get a first down until the 4th and 20 hail mary. Why do so many people think this offense was gonna drive 80 yards and score? I just don't get that.
We could have had the ball at the 2 yard line with a chance to score and win, how is that worse than getting it at your own 20? Or maybe not getting it at all?
michiganjoe posted:Offense had short yardage and red zone struggles all year. AR threw a fourth down pass into the dirt on the previous series and I'm not quite sure where all the confidence in the Packer offense is coming from. Defense was playing reasonably well and you kick the XP and take your chances in OT.
Bingo.
If Mike McCarthy is worried about what a bunch of media pundits and keyboard warriors think then the Packers are in deep trouble.
michiganjoe posted:Offense had short yardage and red zone struggles all year. AR threw a fourth down pass into the dirt on the previous series and I'm not quite sure where all the confidence in the Packer offense is coming from. Defense was playing reasonably well and you kick the XP and take your chances in OT.
That's exactly the point. The offense struggled the entire 4th quarter, yet somehow driving 80 yards for the winning touchdown was a better option than 1 play for 2 yards?
heyward posted:It's easy to say go for 2 from your couch. Again, no coach would've made that decision.
Everyone goes to McDonalds. It must be the best restaurant in the world.
Yes they should have gone for two. The Cardinals had a better team, top to bottom, and the longer you draw a game out, the better team comes out ahead. IMO, the odds of completing a 2 pt conversion were probably 50%..........their odds of winning in overtime were easily less than that. But I don't blame MM - I blame the culture of the NFL, which pushes coaches to be over-conservative to alleviate blame.
AZ scored 4 times on 10 drives, but 3 of the last 4 drives they put up points. The GB defense played well, but the AZ offense was in moving the ball far better than previously.
GB scored 4 times on 10 drives, but only 1 of the last 4 drives put up points and that was as we know the miraculous 2 passes. The offense was not doing much other than that one Lacy run for much of the 2nd half.
Regardless of the data, which most certainly dictates you are much better off going for 2, I keep coming back to the fact that you had AZ reeling. The fans were stunned, the players were stunned. This was the time to end it. You had plenty of time to call run/pass option for AR depending on the look of the D. I want the ball game decided by Aaron Rodgers and 2 yards. Not a coin flip and a Dom Capers defense that while they played well for much of the game, hasn't exactly been a rock when we needed it most the past 5 years. Not a coin flip and a fluke fumble or turnover. Not a coin flip and an offense that didn't do much all day to try and drive 80 yards for a TD or 60 yards for a FG.
Look, I'm not confused. There is no football coach in the NFL that goes for 2 and the win. None. I get that. NFL coaches continually play to delay losing instead of trying to win. It's a function of job security, and not answering to critics that think there's a "book" to go by. It doesn't make it the right decision. It doesn't make it the most strategic decision. It doesn't make it the proactive decision. That's 3 consecutive OT games where Rodgers and the offense didn't even get to touch the ball.
Let me put it this way. Swap sides. If the Packers were on defense and the opponent with no time left on the clock had the opportunity to go for the win with a 2 Pt or kick it and play for overtime, I'd ABSOLUTELY want them kicking instead of going for 2. Absolutely would not want to try and stop that team from getting 2 yards. cough shovel pass to Fitz to win the game cough cough.
titmfatied posted:If MM goes for two and they don't get it the whole world is screaming how he was scared to go to over time and that lead him to botch the end of game decision process once again. Suddenly everyone calling for the 2 pt attempt here flips the script because "he should know better" as the coach. And they'd be right.
There's a package for 2 pt conversions. I will guarantee that Janis isn't anywhere near it. He already wasn't in sync with Rodgers earlier in the game close to the goal line. I've been singing 83's praises as much as anyone, but that's not the place for him.
How many drops has Abby had? No way I trust that guy with 1 play win or go home.
Jones is covered by Peterson. Attacking that is a lot lower than 50-50
The 2 pt package was severely limited by the loss of Cobb. It's not as easy as just plugging 84 in there if he hasn't had practice reps there.
The 2pt conversion would have been bold with Nelson/Cobb/Jones/Montgomery. Crazy to think they should have gone for it with 2 guys in Abby and Janis who have barely any experience on the field.
Looks like someone on this board graduated from high school.
Try saying something constructive.
Go for 2, win the ballgame (or not) & let's get the hell outta here.
Which player or facet of the team do you want to handle 1 play with our season on the line?
If your answer is anyone OTHER than Aaron Rodgers you need to follow another sport like curling.
You're on the road, and you're the lesser team. You just STOLE a touchdown and have the superior team on their heels and reeling. YOU GO FOR TWO.
There is a time to go for the PAT, and there is a time to go for two.
PAT: You've been the superior team and you know that the longer the game goes, the more likely your team will rise to the top.
2PT: You just scored a LUCKY touchdown putting you down by one, and the way your offense played the entire half (minus 2 lucky plays) if the game goes any longer you have no hope of winning.
All you PAT'ers need to go re-watch on your DVR's the first 28 minutes of the 2nd half. The Packers didn't even come close to scoring a single point. There was no "we win" overtime scenario.
As yourself 2 questions:
1. If there was a show of hands of the 11 guys that were on the field when we scored our last touchdown of who wanted to go to the sidelines for the PAT and overtime, how many hands would have been up?
2. What do you think 70,000 Cardinals fans were praying for after the hail mary touchdown? A. "Please Kick the extra point" - or - B. "Please go for 2."
You all know darn well what they were praying for. If that's what THEY wanted, why did YOU want it?
How many of you were screaming to go for two before the overtime like you are now? My guess is none.
Look... there's a reason it has never been attempted in the playoffs before.
Jelly posted:How many of you were screaming to go for two before the overtime like you are now? My guess is none.
Rong.
I was.
And I have about 10 witnesses.
This team with MM and Dan Compers are terrible in OT and I let everybody within earshot know it right after the hail mary TD.
CAPackFan95 posted:The fans were stunned, the players were stunned.
What does it matter that the fans were stunned? The only players who looked stunned were the Packers D, the Az players seemed to be OK. Make a couple of tackles and the ball is in the MVPs hand.......just where it should be.
The AZ defense was absolutely stunned. They just gave up 2 huge hail mary plays.
Make a couple of tackles and the ball is in the MVPs hand......
This team under Capers has proven not to able able to do that in recent years.
Pikes Peak posted:CAPackFan95 posted:The fans were stunned, the players were stunned.
What does it matter that the fans were stunned? The only players who looked stunned were the Packers D, the Az players seemed to be OK. Make a couple of tackles and the ball is in the MVPs hand.......just where it should be.
Typically louder than hell crowds tend to make it more difficult on offenses. But more importantly, you've locked on to the main premise of my post.
Great job.