Ted and Tallent

And here is 2015:

Round 1, Damarious Russell S

Round 2, Quinten Rollins CB/S

Round 3, Ty Montgomery WR

Round 4, Jake Ryan LB

Round 5, Brett Hundley QB

Round 6, Aaron Ripkowski RB

Round 6, Christian Ringo DE

Round 6, Kennard Backman TE

Still not a big fan of FA although it's fair to say that TT might well utilize it a bit more often. 

If you're going to use the draft and develop philosophy you need to draft well. Two bad picks there and, although it's early, two other picks who haven't contributed as expected and may well be trending in that direction. Need to hit in the middle rounds and TT has missed too often there. It's become evident this year that I badly overestimated the talent level of the roster TT has assembled.

And he will continue to build the roster the same way because he is a paradigm. You can't keep doing things the same way and expect different results 

This is practically the same roster that was an eyelash away from making & probably winning a Super Bowl last season.

Returned all 5 OL starters with an established RB & MVP QB.

Talent is not the issue. 

Talented teams don't necessarily win in this league. It takes more than talent

At ILB ( a serious need since losing Des Bishop in 2010):

DJ Smith Ricky Gilmore Terrell Manning Nate Palmer (not considered an ILB Sam Barrington Carl Bradford (not considered an ILB)

Sorry boss. Just taking that example alone, that is a pretty piss poor pool of talent by TT. So I beg to differ, that is most definitely a lack of talent.

At TE?

DJ Williams

Ryan Taylor

Richard Rodgers

Kenard Backman

I have no problem with draft n' develop. But like in the example of 2011, one player remains who we now have to at least wonder somewhat if Cobb is already overpaid. When you obsess on D&D as TT does, if you miss on a single draft it can set your franchise back years especially when you do not do anything in UFA.

2014 minus 2 players HHCD and Linsley is looking more shaky as well. Though I will give you at least Janis looks like a decent gunner on ST's.

This is such a tired topic on here. It's obvious that this team always seems to have a glaring need that likely could have been easily supplemented by a mid-range FA or a midseason trade for a pick or two. For some it fits their narrative to 'stand by their man' while the rest of the league passes the team by using other avenues more. As each year ticks aways, another year of a HOF QB evaporates and the window gets smaller.

Ron Wolf has lamented the 'fart in the wind' era of 4 and 92. If the AR era ends with only one bowl appearance, that will something worse in the wind.

Seriously, that's just bad.

This season of suck is brought to you by players who need to grow the **** up and be professionals and coaches who need to get a ****ing brain and whip them into ****ing shape.  

Bunch of prima donnas.  Do your ****ing job playing a god damn game.    

I hope you're available for the pre-game pep-talk Henry.

Boris posted:

This is practically the same roster that was an eyelash away from making & probably winning a Super Bowl last season.

Returned all 5 OL starters with an established RB & MVP QB.

Talent is not the issue. 

Talented teams don't necessarily win in this league. It takes more than talent

Then what do you think is the issue Boris? I've been listening all morning to the talking heads and they're all saying "this isn't the team you've seen in the past". I thought the same thing as you: this team was just an onside kick away from the Super Bowl. WTF happened? 

Well just to clarify, they were either an onside kick, a blown fake field goal or a hail mary wounded duck two-point conversion away.

The QB's skill level came back to earth.

For tallant issues just take a look at the 2014 draft.  Thompson drafted Davante Adams.  All of these guys were on the board at that time:

Allen Robinson - RD2 1300 yards, 14 tds

John Brown - RD3 - 960 yds, 7 tds

Jarvis Landry - RD2 - 1100 yds, 4 tds

Donte Moncrief - RD3 - 750 yds, 6 tds

Martavis Bryant - RD4 - 760 yds, 6 tds in 10 games.  Tall, athletic WR the Packers have never had.

This isn't just missing on 1 guy, that happens all the time.  This is whiffing on 5 guys who have had a big impact on their current teams.   Moncrief, Brown and Bryant were passed a 2nd time to draft Khyri Thornton.  

Cards had weaknesses last offseason (OLB, RB, OL).

They drafted OLBer Markus Golden who has been effective and signed vets LaMarr Woodley and Dwight Freeney. Woodley ended up in IR. In spot duty, Freeney has 7 sacks (3 yesterday and a game winner against Minny).

At RB, they Signed Chris Johnson who was effective until injured and drafted David Johnson who is having an excellent season.

On the OLine, free agent Mike Iupati came over from SF to add much needed stability.

The Cards have drafted well of late. They have also utilized free agency to stock their roster. Don't really understand why the latter option for acquiring talent is shunned in GB.

GBFanForLife posted:

The QB's skill level came back to earth.

I have to disagree. Rodgers' has incredible skill. I think the offensive roster has come back to Earth.

2009 Vikes were 1 boneheaded Favre throw from the Super Bowl.

In 2010, Minesota returned 21 of 22 starters. They did not get to the playoffs that season.

In 2014, the Packers were unbelievably healthy. Injuries have certainly contributed to this year's decline. 

I think the failure of the 2014 team to take advantage of that good health will forever haunt MM and possibly ARod & TT.

Where would an FA have made a difference on this team? You could argue a FA ILB would have made a difference, maybe a more competent backup OL. He found a mid-range FA WR who was probably the best we could ask for based on what was available (Jones).

Boris is right, this is a team that was blown onside kick away from a SB appearance and possibly a win just one year ago. They returned every starter except one, obviously that one guy is more important than anyone guessed. 

You guys know I'm the first one to call out players for not executing and although I think that's a big part of it, the biggest difference to point to is the shuffling of the coaching staff. Bennett is not coaching WRs and they have regressed. Van Pelt is spending more time with WRs and the QB is struggling. The HC isn't supervising the gameplan and the O is stagnant. The big mistake with this team is what McGinn pointed out recently, McCarthy is hoarding coaches rather than putting everyone in a spot where they are best served. Rather than let someone leave he is cramming guys at the top and it appears to be hurting more than helping. What do Bennett and Clements even do? We only need 1 OC! Who is coaching the WRs because I only see Van Pelt with Rodgers? McCarthy needs to straighten out the staff. Clements should go back to being QB coach, let Van Pelt actually focus on WRs, let Bennett be the OC, etc. This was a SB team a year ago and the biggest change is the coaching staff...obviously talent is needed, every team should add talent every year, but what good is talent if the staff is a mess!

Wow, you may be right GD. I never thought about the coaching changes. But I'll still say that NO SPEED at any of the skill positions is the biggest factor, but your point is a good one.

SteveLuke posted:

Cards had weaknesses last offseason (OLB, RB, OL).

They drafted OLBer Markus Golden who has been effective and signed vets LaMarr Woodley and Dwight Freeney. Woodley ended up in IR. In spot duty, Freeney has 7 sacks (3 yesterday and a game winner against Minny).

At RB, they Signed Chris Johnson who was effective until injured and drafted David Johnson who is having an excellent season.

On the OLine, free agent Mike Iupati came over from SF to add much needed stability.

The Cards have drafted well of late. They have also utilized free agency to stock their roster. Don't really understand why the latter option for acquiring talent is shunned in GB.

You can also look at Carolina. They signed Michael Oher on the cheap from the Ravens who has resurrected his career and is playing lights out. As is Ted Ginn jr another key FA pick up with 10 TD's and career high in yards

Then that same team lost their version of Jordy Nelson in Kelvin Benjamin and they also revamped their offense to feature Stewart and take the pressure off of Newton who unlike Rodgers isn't expected to play lights out.

Again, I have no issue with GB being a largely D&D team. But all of these other teams including the Cards, Seattle, and the Panthers in the NFC are sprinkling in some FA pick ups.

James Jones was a miracle he was available. Imagine what this offense would be like without him. Lord..

antiworst posted:

Wow, you may be right GD. I never thought about the coaching changes. But I'll still say that NO SPEED at any of the skill positions is the biggest factor, but your point is a good one.

Janis

GDs point is a good one and is likely one part of the problem. But it isn't all this or all that. It's a combination.

Not a good idea to call TT out on his WR draft history. Just isn't. And you don't double down in the 3rd round on Moncrief, Brown, or Bryant just in case your 2nd round WR pick doesn't shake out. The Thornton pick? That was another grade A eff up at DL. 

In a bizarre sort of way I admire AR continuing to go at Adams to try getting him out of this funk he's in. The kid didn't forget how to play football. He has zero confidence right now. To Henry's point though, he's a grown man and a pro and he needs to grow a couple stones and stop pouting like a small child.  

IMO...There is clearly something going on between Aaron and McCarthy. I don't think it's anything that's getting fixed in time to salvage 2015. I don't think it's anything just the two of them can talk out either. I think Ted is going to have to step in and decide if they can play nice going forward. I also think a lot of it is Aaron being a little bitch. MM **** the bed with Clements and AR needs to get square with that and set his Clements crush to the side. 

After this season is over MM needs to take a seriously long look at his staff. Campen, Moss, Clements. While I think Dom has acquitted himself fairly well in 2015. Things have gone horribly wrong when the coach that has kind of stood out in a positive way is Ron Zook. 

There was a really good column by McGinn a few weeks back talking about how Wolf would constantly cycle players through the bottom 5 to 7 spots on the roster until he found guys that could contribute.  Not sure if it got linked in this forum but it was well worth reading.  Thompson should be constantly searching for players who can help the team instead of basically just doing it one day a year.

Did the Packers cost themselves a contributor by wasting a roster spot on Carl Bradford all of last year?

Could the Packers have found themselves a better linebacker option instead of keeping Andy Mulumba on the roster all of this year?

Nate Palmer finally got his chance to play and he was terrible.  The guy who has replaced him has looked equally as terrible and yet it doesn't look like Palmer has any chance to get his job back.  So why is he still on the roster?

There might not be very much talent available when it gets a few weeks into the season, but talent is still out there.  The Cardinals signed Dwight Freeney halfway through October, and needless to say a guy like that has done more in a handful of games than what Bradford, Mulumba and Palmer have done for the Packers in all the years they've been here.

There have been missed opportunities in FA certainly, but Carolina signed FAs because they had injuries and no depth in place to fill the gaps. Free Agency is the price paid for drafting poorly, but free agency still has to match up with your needs. There was no need for a Michael Oher or Ted Ginn in GB when they were signed by Carolina, completely different circumstances. It's not always just TT refusing to sign players. There have been instances where need has matched up with FA, Jermaine Gresham came to mind immediately. We don't know the story behind that (maybe he didn't want to be in GB), but he is a talented TE who is now getting playing time in Arizona. Ted's not always right, but unless he wants to overpay I don't always think FA is an option.

Looking back, the one guy I wish GB went after hard before the trade deadline was Joe Staley. He was on the blocks. I say this with the disclaimer I have no idea whether or not Ted did or not. Maybe he did and SF was asking for too much. 

Someone thought Barclay and Walker could hold up if called on. I can't ever remember seeing two tackles get ragdolled play after play after play like yesterday. Neither of those two should be on an NFL roster in 2016. 

I think Ted is going to have to step in and decide if they can play nice going forward. I also think a lot of it is Aaron being a little bitch. MM **** the bed with Clements and AR needs to get square with that and set his Clements crush to the side. 

Word. The problem with MM creating all of these mini-promotions (and you can even include a useless asst HC in Moss) is he has all of these chiefs and not enough indians on his staff. And I also agree with this relationship between AR and MM.

If this is Survivor and you had to choose between keeping AR or MM and not both, I don't see how you don't keep AR. That kind of QB simply doesn't exist in the league. I just feel Rodgers has long, long tuned out MM. And it's not just this season. It's been evident since the Bengal game I believe in 2012. He gave AR a lot of power as a player he should have never gotten. Look no further than TJ Lang who got pissed at AR for the pass he threw to Adams yesterday. Lang told Jason Wilde it wasn't that he threw to Adams. It was that he changed calls out of a run play yet again and the series went nowhere.

Rodgers also apparently ignored MM's call to pull him from the game late in the 3rd Q. Fox showed Tolzzzz warming up. MM was just about to put him in. AR said fu** it put his helmet back on and went in anyway. If that's true then you have a serious employer/employee relationship problem.

They were discussing Megatron's future in Detroit yesterday, whether he will be in Detroit in 2016. How great of a signing would that be for GB! Rodgers to Megatron would be unstoppable! 

Gotta bring in a real ILB any way they can next year. I know Ryan is young, but he's already showing too many AJ Hawk qualities... read/react rather than attack, always tackling 5 yards downfield, no instincts, etc. Strangely it seems all the LBs we have had under Capers except for Bishop have played that way...coincidence? I don't think so. Winny Moss needs to be sent packing.

If Rodgers isn't listening to his HC then why is he the keeper over McCarthy? Why wouldn't he do the same to another HC? I'd keep McCarthy and sell Rodgers for someone's draft. I like Rodgers fine, but I don't think he's untradable. 

The GBP Rules posted:

For tallant issues just take a look at the 2014 draft.  Thompson drafted Davante Adams.  All of these guys were on the board at that time:

Allen Robinson - RD2 1300 yards, 14 tds

John Brown - RD3 - 960 yds, 7 tds

Jarvis Landry - RD2 - 1100 yds, 4 tds

Donte Moncrief - RD3 - 750 yds, 6 tds

Martavis Bryant - RD4 - 760 yds, 6 tds in 10 games.  Tall, athletic WR the Packers have never had.

This isn't just missing on 1 guy, that happens all the time.  This is whiffing on 5 guys who have had a big impact on their current teams.   Moncrief, Brown and Bryant were passed a 2nd time to draft Khyri Thornton.  

I'm sure you'd make a great after-the-fact GM.

Too many teams would pay a Herschel Walker price for a QB like Rodgers. But could MM win with Tolzien or Hundley?

After much thought and consternation. I'm torn on the whole Lang / Rodgers / Why throw? / Adams conundrum. 

In good times. AR changes out of a run to that call 9 times out of 10 because it's an easy pitch and catch which AR pitches and Adams catches and everyone skips off the field happily together arm in arm and it's a 20 point lead for the Packers and we all gawk in wonder at the ease in which this team scores. 

But these ain't good times. AR and MM have a little blood feud boiling. The team knows it. Some of them might be MM's guys. Some might be AR's guys. So when the line blocks perfectly and Kuhn can't find anyone to block which means Eddie would have walked in only Adam's somehow failed to even touch a pass that went directly through his hands. Of course Lang is going to turn and basically say "WTF Man!?!?!" to his QB that may or may not be taking his love of Clements on a one man crusade to the season dumpster. 

I think it would have been best if AR stuck with the call and run the ball there. Even if he did what's always worked prior to about 7 games ago.  

Firing MMwould rid the team of assistants weave overvalued.

If there is a schism, McCarthy and Rodgers have accomplished far too much for everything to fall apart now. 

Could you imagine Rodgers with a rookie head coach? 

It would be like Favre and Sherman again.

ChilliJon posted:

I can't ever remember seeing two tackles get ragdolled play after play after play like yesterday.

I was thinking of this the entire time (go to 2:07):

I have said for years, this team rarely hits on the 1st rounders.  Russell could be good, but Sherrod, Perry and Jone have not lived up with that pick.  I also know, that players rarely do and there are 1st round busts all the time.  They have however done great in rounds 3-5.  They need to start trading out of the 1st each year IMO, unless its someone like a Sanjay Beach or Perry Kemp.

ChilliJon posted:

 QB that may or may not be taking his love of Clements on a one man crusade to the season dumpster. 

Love of Clements, or his own ego? When McCarthy took back the play calling that was as much on Rodgers as it was Clements. Rodger's ego may be more at play here than the loss of Clements making the calls.

That all said, can't see someone like Rodgers (based on what we are allowed to see/hear about him) having a hissing tantrum with a chance at a Super Bowl win, which could elevate him in the discussion of GOAT. He talks about guys like Montana and Starr, but he won't be in that neighborhood if he is a 1-fer. His regular season play was putting him the discussion, but the playoffs are where the legacy gets cemented. Marino, great QB, but never won a SB.

Last tinfoil hat comment. Last week Rodgers said Abby deserves more playing time, but that would put Adams on the bench more... maybe AR throws to Adams to prove his point that Abby would be the better option? You know, since Adams can't catch chit right now.

Grave Digger posted:

I'd keep McCarthy and sell Rodgers for someone's draft. I like Rodgers fine, but I don't think he's untradable. 

I don't think any player is untradable if another team makes a Herschel Walker insane offer. But I would not keep MM over Rodgers at this point. He's mismanaged his staff by over promoting, refusing to allow his own guys to seek promotions outside the organization therefore not unlike AR has likely created disgruntled asst's, he's so lax in responding to change by the time he does you realize it should have been done weeks or even months ago, and lastly he's a coach who's been here 10 plus years. Andy Reid got tuned out in Philly after stagnating there too long. Trading AR changes none of the mismanagement MM has displayed in these regards.

I just don't know if AR/MM can be repaired. I'm strongly leaning towards no. If it can't be, I'd take my chances with AR, continue to groom Hundley and if Rodgers becomes unbearable just maybe you have a capable starting QB with number 7 in 3 seasons.

I think the offensive meltdown comes down to 3 things. Any one happening alone would have damaged the offense. The three happening simultaneously have crippled it. However, the WR problems are the main issue.

1. The WR group is probably the worst in the NFL right now. They invested 20 million dollars a year in Cobb and Nelson and used high draft picks on Adams and Montgomery. They supplemented that with mid round and late picks on Abbrederis and Janis. That's 6 guys (5 of which have been in the system for multiple years). While James Jones certainly has limitations, as someone said earlier in the thread imagine what the offense would look like without him. They got unlucky with injuries to Nelson and Montgomery, but in previous years they'd plug in a guy like Boykin and get 50 catches/700 yards. TT has invested well in this area so you can't blame personnel decisions here. I would argue that the measureables on Adams, Abbrederis, and Janis are all as good or better than Boykin's but they haven't produced. That's the development part of the equation and it's failed miserably on the WR front this year. There isn't a single WR that's improved this year. Drops, poor patterns, failure to even seem to know what to do on scramble drills (except for Jones).

2. The offensive line is beat up. Sitton is gutting it out, both centers have been dinged up, and obviously both tackles have been hurt. If healthy, this is a line with 3 Pro Bowl level players (Linsley, Sitton, and Lang); an above average RT, and an adequate LT. They also have a better than average first backup (Tretter). Granted, the backup tackles are terrible, but how many teams would fare well having to play backups at both OT positions? This part of the problem is just bad luck/injury. However, if the WRs could actually get open on some quick hitting patterns, the OL would look a lot better.

3. The one area you could fault TT on the most on offense is TE. Richard Rodgers runs a 4.87. Mike Daniels is faster - I looked it up. They went into the year with Rodgers and Quarless. Those guys are good guys to have on special teams or as your 2nd or 3rd TE, but they are not difference makers. TT and MM probably figured they'd done very well with 5 WR sets over the years, so TE wasn't a priority. TT knew this was an issue - why else would he take a flyer on a POS like Lyerla, but figured it wasn't going to be a major issue with the WR talent they thought they'd have.

So if you line up your most common lineup which is a single RB, TE, and 3 WRs you end up with three guys that can be single covered (R. Rodgers, Adams, and Jones) in press coverage and even if they get by you they can be run down from behind. Then you have a decent slot receiver, who now is essentially doubled. That leaves the defense to spy the RB with a guy (and neither RB is that fast either that they can't be covered by a LB), and rush 5 guys or drop another guy into coverage. No wonder no one can get open. If the defense rushes extra guys, the screen plays work. The only other thing that works is a back shoulder throw to Jones. That's literally the passing offense.

There is no easy fix to this. The only thing I can think of (just as a fan without seeing what goes on in practice) is to bench and Adams and play either Abbrederis or Janis. Abbrederis drops a pass yesterday and doesn't get any more chances. Same accountability seems to hold for Janis. Adams is terrible yet hardly ever sees the bench.