Need to get bigger. Need to get stronger. Need to get faster. 

Bob doesn't know what the **** needs to happen. 

Get a defensive coaching staff. Coach them up. This defense has talent. And **** Bob McGinn. 

Need to get bigger. Need to get stronger. Need to get faster. 

Then it should only take $6M.  Good thing the Packers have more cap space than that.

Bishop was slower than what we have now, he just had a knack for being around the ball and making plays. The piece about the 2013 season illustrates the problem well. Worthy cost the Packers a second rounder and a fourth rounder to move up. We you build almost exclusively through the draft those type of mistakes are extremely costly and difficult to overcome. TT's defensive drafting of late has been very lackluster and the team needs better talent on that side of the ball and certainly speed is an important part of it.

Bob should apply for a job. He seems to have all the answers.

I cant say that I disagree with the link Fedya and thanks for posting that.  The need to be faster and more physical is not something new for this team especially on defense.  So often I see teams on defense taking it to the other team being fast, physical, and have a mean edge to them.  In your face hard nosed defense.  When was the last time we could say that about the Packers?

Coaching

Thank ChiliJon. I just quotes the link. 

Dr.-Ka-Bong posted:

Coaching

and conversations.

McGinn saying the Packers need speed on D is not some revelation. We all saw what the lack of speed on the defense did to them in the 4 game losing streak and in the buzz-saw of ATL. You can scheme for speed to an extent, and you go slow down the offensive speed with quick pressure from your front 4. But, going out and drafting or signing FA guys that have speed isn't the only answer. 

Buckley ran a 4.34...

I do enjoy Bob's "this team is missing X each year" as a fun new postseason tradition. But it doesn't take a stopwatch to see this team could stand to be a bit faster on both sides of the ball.

from what I witnessed, Jake & Blake were doing fine early in the year before injuries starting taking their toll, once again.  would we like a long reach, powerful, fast assignment-sure ILB?  sure, who wouldn't.  is there a tree Bob knows of that they are growing on?

Last season I maintained that no team in recent NFL memory had offensive skill players as slow as the Packers did. (mainly Lacy, J. Jones, an injured Adams, & R. Rodgers having to play major roles). I wonder if without Shields & Randall showing nothing like the 4.46 forty he ran at the combine, was there a slower defense in the league than we fielded this season?  

As someone else pointed out, Des Bishop was slower than any of our current ILBs (4.77 at the combine). The aggressiveness and the instincts are what set him apart from guys like Hawk. Ryan, Martinez, and Thomas have all shown they have the instincts to play ILB and they're all aggressive, they just need to get stronger and improve their technique. The biggest struggle for all 3 was shedding OL, they just couldn't do it. None of them could get off blocks and attack the ball. Instincts can make a slow player look faster, a fast player who no instincts is useless. 

Hungry5 posted:

Dr.-Ka-Bong posted:

Coaching

and conversations.

McGinn saying the Packers need speed on D is not some revelation. We all saw what the lack of speed on the defense did to them in the 4 game losing streak and in the buzz-saw of ATL. You can scheme for speed to an extent, and you go slow down the offensive speed with quick pressure from your front 4. But, going out and drafting or signing FA guys that have speed isn't the only answer. 

Buckley ran a 4.34...

I used to refer to Buckley as Terrell F-up-ley when he played for Green Bay, but he did stick around the league for 14 years and intercepted 50 passes with 6 pick sixes. He also contributed to one of New England's Super Bowl wins and played over 200 games in the NFL. He wasn't really a bust.

He had two problems - first I think he was Wolf's highest draft pick in Green Bay which elevated expectations (the AJ Hawk effect) and second - he liked to talk about himself being the second coming of Deion Sanders. If he had just shut up and played, he'd have been much better off.

As much as I hated seeing Buckley continually abused by Alvin Harper during playoff games, he was exponentially better than what Randall and Rollins showed this year. I think we'll look back in a few years and appreciate more just how poorly they played this year.

If dom is leaving, we will know by next week. Super bowl is done and assistants are back in office. Believe that was around the time sanders and gb parted ways too.

I don't think there will ever be a point during the rest of forever that I will look back and appreciate how poorly anyone on the 2016 defense performed. 

FLPACKER posted:

Last season I maintained that no team in recent NFL memory had offensive skill players as slow as the Packers did. (mainly Lacy, J. Jones, an injured Adams, & R. Rodgers having to play major roles). I wonder if without Shields & Randall showing nothing like the 4.46 forty he ran at the combine, was there a slower defense in the league than we fielded this season?  

Burnett and Dix have decent speed for safeties (although nothing like Nick Collins). I don't think Randall or Rollins lack speed - they just played like deer in the headlights for large parts of the year.

The Packers offense isn't the fastest either but having Jared Cook on the field (and Jordy Nelson after he started trusting his knee) made an enormous difference. They are both 4.50 type guys - not sprinters but enough to keep people honest. They essentially replaced RichROd and James Jones. RichRod ran a 4.8 and James Jones probably wasn't much faster in 2015.

Orlando Wolf posted:

If dom is leaving, we will know by next week. Super bowl is done and assistants are back in office. Believe that was around the time sanders and gb parted ways too.

He is not going anywhere.....unless he wants to.  He is an outstanding football coach.

The biggest problems were Shields being out & Randall playing hurt (I hope). That left the only other two guys to play the outside (Gunter & Rollins) with 4.7 & 4.57 speed (Hyde & our safeties ran as fast, if not faster).  I have to believe that a healthy Randall & Shields manning the outside would have given our pass defense a whole different look. 

Pikes Peak posted:

Orlando Wolf posted:

If dom is leaving, we will know by next week. Super bowl is done and assistants are back in office. Believe that was around the time sanders and gb parted ways too.

He is not going anywhere.....unless he wants to.  He is an outstanding football coach.

Disagree

With me or Mike?

Faster players on defense will just get out of position faster. I think slower players is the answer. Or 11 stationary pylons. 

Dom has just the defense for the pylons. It's in his thick book.

FLPACKER posted:

The biggest problems were Shields being out & Randall playing hurt (I hope). That left the only other two guys to play the outside (Gunter & Rollins) with 4.7 & 4.57 speed (Hyde & our safeties ran as fast, if not faster).  I have to believe that a healthy Randall & Shields manning the outside would have given our pass defense a whole different look. 

They should move Gunther to safety. It's not his fault they had to miscast him because of how inept/hurt Randall and Rollins were.

He's a good guy to have around to cover big possession type receivers with middling speed (Anquan Boldin, Brandon Marshall, Alshon Jeffrey). Expecting him to run with Julio Jones 1x1 is amost like expecting me to guard LeBron James one on one in a pickup game.

ChilliJon posted:

Faster players on defense will just get out of position faster. I think slower players is the answer. Or 11 stationary pylons. 

I like that. We could pay a lot less for roughly the same results. Put the money into the offense and try to score 60 a game. Onside kick all the time and go for it every 4th down.

The last two playoff games the defense had 17 drives against it when Cowboys or Falcons were actually trying (the Falcons ran into the line 3 times when they had already scored 44 points).

17 Drives

9 TDs

4 FGs

1 interception (Hyde jumping the WR screen)

3 punts - Atlanta punted on 4th and 2 at midfield, the Cowboys punted after a 15 yard penalty during a drive, and one other punt.

The last 14 drives of the playoffs were 9 TDs, 3 FGs, Hyde's int. and one punt.

Seriously, why not just onside kick at that point?

Yeah, but I've read Dom's an excellent coach.

SO MANY PLAYOFF games say otherwise.

It's hard to win a horse race when all you've got is Clydesdales. 

Dom Capers horse race. Illustrated. 

ChilliJon posted:

Faster players on defense will just get out of position faster. I think slower players is the answer. Or 11 stationary pylons. 

MichiganPacker posted:

I used to refer to Buckley as Terrell F-up-ley when he played for Green Bay, but he did stick around the league for 14 years and intercepted 50 passes with 6 pick sixes. He also contributed to one of New England's Super Bowl wins and played over 200 games in the NFL. He wasn't really a bust.

He had two problems - first I think he was Wolf's highest draft pick in Green Bay which elevated expectations (the AJ Hawk effect) and second - he liked to talk about himself being the second coming of Deion Sanders. If he had just shut up and played, he'd have been much better off.

As much as I hated seeing Buckley continually abused by Alvin Harper during playoff games, he was exponentially better than what Randall and Rollins showed this year. I think we'll look back in a few years and appreciate more just how poorly they played this year.

Buckley and Hawk, appropriate correlation.

My point for Buckley was obviously in regard to his speed. All that speed didn't guarantee all-pro.

Also, I think the missed expectations his rookie year shut him up some. From there he seemed to figure things out some. I agree, if he came in and just played people would likely remember him differently.

I always enjoy Bob's work and he loves to find and work an angle. Last year the Packers needed to be more like Team X, and the year before the Packers needed to be more like Team Y. Next year the Packers need to be more like some other team. Its a great journalistic strategy and you never run out of new teams that the Packers need to emulate. More size ! More toughness ! More Speed ! More vets ! More young players ! More Simple Scheme !

But this part puzzles me:

"Another factor working hand-in-hand with the Falcons’ 40 times, according to one general manager, was the simplicity of the Cover-3 scheme that Quinn brought from Seattle. "  “They’re not scheming that much on defense,” the GM said. “Part of playing fast is the 40’s and part of it is having guys playing decisively and instinctively.”

The Seahawks run the exact same Cover 3 scheme, yet ATL blew them out of the water the week before. Dropping 36 points on a top 2 defense that is loaded with all- stars and have been in the same "simple" defense for 5+ years. The Packers also beat the crap out of that simple scheme, dropping 38 pts on Seattle. And the seahawks are lauded for their team speed on defense. See below:

http://www.seattletimes.com/sp...e-nfls-best-defense/

“I’m telling you, when you stand on the sideline of this team and watch Seattle’s defense, it is overwhelming,” former NFL fullback Heath Evans said. “The speed from the sideline is uncanny. I played this game for a decade and saw the Steelers defenses and the Tampa Bay Bucs, some of the fastest defenses ever. And yet when I see this team, it’s crazy what goes on.”

Maybe having a simple scheme and fast players isn't the entire answer ?

In the case of Seattle. Having hot nasty bad ass speed and a simple scheme works. Right up to the moment Earl Thomas breaks his leg. It's pretty stunning what happened to that defense when they lost one player but still had 5 legitimate studs on defense. Sherman, Bennett, Wagner, Chancellor, and Wright. Avril and Rubin are no slouches either. 

RE Seattle, agree on Earl Thomas. When he or any of the "legion" are not playing together, Seattle's record goes into the schitter and they just look like a different defense, period. Sherman also was playing with an injury nearly all year that Petey decided not to mention on the injury report either. So that may have factored in somewhat in how he played.

I don't disagree with Bob on needing more speed on defense but do we really want to emulate the Falcons D as he suggests? That's the defense that 25th in total defense, 27th in scoring defense (25.4 points per game) and 28th in passing D.

Thomas' value isn't that he's fast though, he has an extremely high football IQ. Chancellor or whoever is in for Thomas don't see things the way Thomas does, they don't his instincts. 

Didn't they improve as the season wore on though?  Almost since their bye.  Maybe they are currently better than their season rank.

i think you're right DH, and that improvement+ health are why ATL are in Houston this weekend. I hope they win it all. 

Falcon defense used to be horrid, but he added FOUR big contributors. AND fired the old DC.

More Speed, sure.  Better instincts, you bet.  Better tackling, dam right.  Green Bay 20th in the league in missed tackles, 1114 defensive snaps 120 missed tackles.

Again I'm not looking for a number one rated defense, just got to be able to hold them to 17 or less.  that should be enough for cripes sakes.

Falcons D turned a serious corner after their Week 11 bye:

First 10 Games 
Record 6-4
Points per game 32.0
Passer Rating 100.9
Takeaways per game 1.1

Last 8 Games
Record 7-1
Points per game 20.5
Passer Rating 79.5
Takeaways per game 1.9

PackerBackerDPM posted:

Again I'm not looking for a number one rated defense, just got to be able to hold them to 17 or less.  that should be enough for cripes sakes.

Anything under 30 in the playoffs would be a sight for sore eyes.