Tramon

quote:

Originally posted by Koopla Krash:
I'm not sure if I want to see more of Frank Zombo on the field. Like some others suggested earlier, I'd much rather see the most physical DB the Packers have - Jarrod Bush - on the field instead of Tramon Williams. After the first time Tramon plays like a puss, I immediately make the change. Let Chrissy Ponder burn Bush as opposed to having AP run at will toward Tramon.

I had that thought and then told myself it was silly. But it does make sense when you think about it. Injury or pussy, the fact is that Tramon isn't interested in tackling AP, where as Bush is physical and willing to stick his hat in there.

There would be a significant decrease in pass coverage but that's not Minny's game. They're going to run AP the entire game.

So what's worse? Having AP run at #38 for big gains all day or having Bush give up the occasional pass?

Bush it is... or Woody or ANYBODY other than #38. Just for this game though.

I tell you what...anyone that has seen Packer pre-season camp and watches the gunner drills knows that Bush has the ability to fight through any blocker. He will set the edge. He will stick his nose into AP's chest.

If I'm making the call, Tramon only gets one chance to puss out - then it's Jarrett Bush time.

It's been quite a while since I've seen a player get as universally abused by the Packers beat writers as Tramon has after this game. It's been brutal... and well deserved. If he has any pride at all, we should see a different Tramon come Saturday night.

quote:

Originally posted by mazrimiv:
It's been quite a while since I've seen a player get as universally abused by the Packers beat writers as Tramon has after this game. It's been brutal... and well deserved. If he has any pride at all, we should see a different Tramon come Saturday night.

I'm sure it's been quite a while since any of them saw a defensive player actually run away from contact.

quote:

then it's Jarrett Bush time.

They mayans WERE right.

Rusty is getting all is posting for the year done this morning.

Lots of wasted bandwidth

Bench him!

Jarrett Bush over Tramon? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Take our best special teams guy out of the mix and play him at a position WE KNOW he can't cover and I am thankful MM has the final say instead of fans.

The bottom line is that everyone except Raji played like garbage trying to tackle Peterson. Should we bench CMIII and Pickett and the rest of the D as well?

My guess is that Williams is going to come out and play inspired football because he is a proven guy and has a lot of pride. I just hope the rest of the D decides to do the same and I also hope we get Woodson back.

What nonsense! I'm here in defense of Tramon. Just watched every play of the game, twice, in slow mo... and all of this piling on is turning into mob mentality, everyone trying to validate himself. In the entire first half Tramon never missed a tackle he should have made. Most of the criticism is a result of two plays: After the miracle Minnesota play where three packers almost intercept and a Viking catches but doesn't catch the tip, Peterson breaks off a big run. Tramon is in the gap and barely lays a finger on Peterson and Aikman crucifies him. Most of you hate Aikman but suddenly here he's your guru when it comes to defense. Tramon might have done better on that play, but, but... Peterson puts a shoulder fake on him causing Tramon to stop his momentum forward for a split second, and Peterson is gone. He's a HoF back with power and speed... and shiftiness... and he went by Tramon. Never happened before?

The other play was the penalty which basically won the game for the Vikes. Tramon hit Simpson in the face away from the ball. Clearly he meant to shove him in the chest and Simpson bent low and the blow went to the face. Horrendous play by Tramon but it happened. There was anger there no doubt. On the second play of the game Simpson, for no reason smashed Tramon in the mouth, in front of a ref, than held his hands up like "Who me?" This continued throughout the game. Packers were pissed. I'm not even sure that when Simpson was layed out in the endzone later in the game it wasn't intentional on the Packers to try and hurt him. Tramon may or may not have hit him on purpose and it was stupid if intentional. But all this comparing him to a matador or even worse to Deion Sanders is over the top.

As to the rest of the game; the Packers were a machine on offense after the first quarter; Rodgers, every receiver, little Harris, Finley was laying people out. The defense wasn't even that bad; Raji and Pickett were great, but there were misses, as in every game; Shields and Hayward one each... but Burnett was sticking his nose in every play. Mathews was his usual and on Peterson's big run to seal the game he was about to tackle Peterson at the line but Rudolf pulled him to the ground. Easy call but no ref is gonna make that in Minnesota with seconds on the clock. Don't know why Dom didn't play Neal more as when he was in he had good push.

It wasn't the refs that lost the game for us it was, yes, some bad tackling, but mostly an assortment of plays that miraculously went their way, usually by inches. How did that ball ever get through to Jenkins for their last touchdown, it was in M.D. Jennings hands, wasn't it? How did 3 Packers miss an easy interception and the call went to the Vikes even though their player didn't catch the ball? Blame McCarthy and Rodgers for burning timeouts but that happens. Peterson fumbles and it's reversed because his knee touched the ground centimeters (that's less than inches) before the ball comes out. They score right after.

Be proud. I was thrilled watching Rodgers and the offense roll down the field at will for the last 3 quarters. 2nd and 22, no problem. Jennings (sign him) was playing not for contract but for the team and pride and fought like a lion. Jordy with all the passion of a rookie after he scored. Jones steady and tough. Rodgers brilliant. Held the ball?... sure, but didn't toss it away, came back immediately after 2nd or 3rd and long and made incredible reads and throws.

All that and the topic of conversation is Tramon? Look at the tape and you'll see it's not Tramon, but, and here I'll piss off half the forum, watch Hawk. Yeah, I'm Hawk bashing. Sure, he was all pro against the Titans. Here he was Hawk. Maybe Tramon missed a few tackles, but Hawk doesn't miss them because he's no where near the running back. There were plays where he was in the hole and got shoved into the sewers under the field, or shoved fifteen yards backwards where he does his patented spin move and than finds the running back downfield and waddles over to pile on. Watch on the Peterson's receiving touchdown, Hawk tries to get over to Peterson but looks like the quicksand won't let him go. We need a middle linebacker faster than Rosie O'Donnel and stronger than her as well.

Everyone talks about O'line and running back and defensive line... we need inside linebackers like the Niners and Seahawks have that can stand people up and cover. Meanwhile, lay off Tramon.

Well there you have it. If you go back and watch the tape, Tramon played well.

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando Wolf:
Woodson has a collarbone and House a shoulder. Tell me more about them being viable options to replace Williams on running plays.

Er, because Woodson has testicles?

Right. Bob McGinn and the rest of the beat writers that went out of their way to call Tramon out are all blind. It's a conspiracy... and the majority of fans that saw it are part of it as well. Tramon wasn't "missing" tackles... he was avoiding them all together. Fact.

quote:

Originally posted by FreeSafety:
IIRC after the Viking game at Lambeau, the NFLN showed "Soundtracks" from the game and the Vikes players and coaches were joking with AP on the sidelines saying "#38 don't want nothin' to do with you".

'
MM needs to put this track on a loop near Williams' locker.

If that's what the beat writer's and the majority say than I guess I'm wrong. The Packers lost because of Tramon's poor tackling. Can I rejoin the mob now?

quote:

Originally posted by Pakrz:
Right. Bob McGinn and the rest of the beat writers that went out of their way to call Tramon out are all blind. It's a conspiracy... and the majority of fans that saw it are part of it as well. Tramon wasn't "missing" tackles... he was avoiding them all together. Fact.

You are wrong. Don't take it personal. Tramon isn't THE reason GB lost, but he was a large part of it. He flat out sucked on Sunday.

So how do you explain the fact he gained 400+ yards against GB in two games?

Oh yeah- it's Tramon's fault. Give me a break.

We are fortunate to have him and Shields and Hayward- all guys that struggled on Sunday. That doesn't make them bad players. They had a bad game and it happens.

Put away the pitchforks already.

Tramon had a poor game, I can't see how you can argue otherwise.

Still, our DB's were asked to make waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to many tackles.

Not arguing he played great, all I'm saying is the level of animus is over the top. Here's what McGinn had to say about Tramon.

"There were eight missed tackles, including three by Tramon Williams (66) and two by Morgan Burnett (69). Williams had a brutal game. Against the run, he didn't really want in on the rough stuff and gave Peterson the outside once or twice. Against the pass, he got embarrassed by FB Jerome Felton on a sideline stop route, gave up a 21-yard dig to Jerome Simpson off a play-action fake that shouldn't affect a CB and picked a terrible time to drill Simpson in the face with an official positioned almost right next to him."

Three missed tackles... gave Peterson the outside once or twice... gave up a couple of completions and drilled Simpson in the face. Not a good day. But "brutal" and making Tramon the center point of the loss when Peterson gained 200 yards and was running over linebackers doesn't seem quite fair.

quote:

Originally posted by Pakrz:
You are wrong. Don't take it personal. Tramon isn't THE reason GB lost, but he was a large part of it. He flat out sucked on Sunday.

quote:

Originally posted by macdaddy:
Well there you have it. If you go back and watch the tape, Tramon played well.

No kidding. What game was he watching? Leroy Butler said in is X's an O's segment that the player in William's position needed to be aggressive and not hesitate against Peterson. This did not happen. Boy, was Leroy ever right.

What the few Tramon defenders are not grasping is the fact that we acknowledge everyone has a bad game now & then....but Williams obviously is avoiding contact, not just in this game, but numerous times during the season(which I've posted on before). The Vikes seem to actually game plan to run at Williams because of this. This is alot more than just missed tackles, which is a physical mistake (which no player purposely makes), this is a question heart & toughness.

Tramon had a bad game but he is a good corner. He's played well this season after a crappy 2011 (along with the rest of the D).

When I hear stuff like "bench him and put in Bush" it's laughable. I don't care how physical Bush is the guy is awful in coverage and we all know it. That doesn't excuse the poor performance by Tramon in run defense but when we are relying on our corners that much for run support we are in trouble.

People need to turn the page and hope that the D has a good plan to at least limit Peterson somewhat. He is going to get his yards but don't make it easy on him by missing tackles or committing dumb penalties. It might also help if they get after Ponder when they have the chance.

The best defense against Adrian Peterson doesn't involve Tramon Williams being on the field.

Or Sam Shields and Morgan Burnett.

Or Clay Matthews and BJ Raji.

The best defense against Adrian Peterson is the Packers offense. Keep him off the field and then score enough where you essentially take the running game away from the Vikings. If the Packers can get an early lead and maintain it, Ponder will be forced to throw. And the Vikes take AP off the field on many passing downs.

Hud, there was at least one play in the first half where Williams looked like he was doing the cha-cha with a Vajeen instead of manning up. I was a huge tw fan but that's Terrell Buckley style.

quote:

Originally posted by Hud:
Not arguing he played great, all I'm saying is the level of animus is over the top

McGinn ......


Three missed tackles... gave Peterson the outside once or twice... gave up a couple of completions and drilled Simpson in the face.....

How could you get much worse ?

"three missed tackles by Tramon Williams ..... Williams had a brutal game. Against the run, he didn't really want in on the rough stuff" ( what could be worse than an opponent targeting you and knowledgable observers saying you are a pussy - the ultimate crime in football ).....and gave Peterson the outside once or twice. "

"Against the pass, he got embarrassed by FB Jerome Felton on a sideline stop route, gave up a 21-yard dig to Jerome Simpson off a play-action fake that shouldn't affect a CB and picked a terrible time to drill Simpson in the face with an official positioned almost right next to him"


So he got embarrassed, got burned, committed a very costly and stupid penalty, and committed the ultimate football cowardice in avoiding contact....multiple times. Yeah not a bad game .

Not denying he had a bad game. But he's been demonized here far beyond anyone else. I like the post that said our corners shouldn't have been forced to make so many tackles. Our achilles heel is still linebacking. We've got Mathews and I think Jones has played well, but the rest; Walden, Moses and Zombo have been invisible. At safety, Burnett's been good but Jennings and McMillan haven't done much. I also think Dom coached scared. Against the Titans, who have a pretty damn good back, he blitzed so creatively that even Hawk seemed possessed. Than against Peterson and a mediocre qb he goes prevent. Not prevent in the classic sense of three rushers, but prevent as in I won't rush too many to prevent Peterson from killing us. Blitzes can also frustrate a running game. We played vanilla.

All that said I believe Dom will change his approach this time and if by chance a lineman or linebacker misses Peterson, Tramon will not only flatten him but rip his heart out and show it to the crowd. Ok, maybe that's too much.

Well there were 69 defensive snaps and he only screwed up on 7 plays. Not bad. Remember how Ahmad Carroll would screw up on 2 or 3 plays and we would bash him? We were wrong. Carroll was a hall of famer.

Hud/Tschmack/other Tramon backers:

There is a LOT more to run defense than just making the tackle - it's called TEAM defense. You set the edge; fight through a block; make an occasional tackle; don't be a target for the NFL MVP to cut toward because he knows you are playing scared. Bush is a BAAAADDD man challenging a play. Tramon is a scared woman.

I would much rather take my chances of Chrissy Ponder being forced to attempt complete passes to (insert Queen turd WR here) against Bush vs. watching AP real off 5, 6, 21 yard runs time and time again (with several of these coming at the expense of poor TEAM defense played by Tramon). Ponder is a 50% accuracy passer and if he is forced to pass more, chances are more clock will be preserved for AR12 to perform his magic. Against a real playoff-NFL QB, I'd want Tramon to start no doubt. As I mentioned before, I start Tramon until he plays pusscake defense. Once I see that, Bush goes in.

I will give you that the other Packer defenders need to also step up, but if you think Tramon is not a HUGE liability to stop the clear-cut #1 option for Minnesota's offense then you don't know what you are talking about.

Tramon had an amazingly crappy game, but it's one game. You make it sound like he's been sandbagging all season. "Liability"? Give it a ****ing rest. Get Woodson in the game and watch run support step up.

You sub in the players that best fit the package. I've like what I've seen from Bush when they send him as a blitzer. He is decent at the LOS but don't think for a second that Bush out in space against AP isn't going to be challenged like every other player in the NFL in that exact situation.

I'd love to be wrong. Williams is a fantastic cover corner that has played much better this year than last year. However he sucks vs. Minnesota's style of offense - it's been proven twice this year. If Woody in there to help shore up the safety position is enough to make the TEAM defense better to the point that AP doesn't go off, great.

All those converted rushing 1st downs chews up the clock and keeps the ball out of AR12's hands. I want AR12 to have the ball as much as possible against Minny's miserable pass defense. Build that lead. Make Minny play catch up. Watch CMIII rack up multiple sacks.

Don't disagree with your point about Bush around the LOS. That is exactly where Tramon has been isolated to set the edge and he doesn't fight the blocker at all - he reminds me of the absorb-the-blocker style of defense that Nick Barnett mastered.

I will disagree with your premise on the open-field tackling though - as a special teams ace, Bush is much more adept than Tramon.

Reality is ap and vajeens aren't going anywhere. Need to get a physical corner whether it's Tramon or plan B.

quote:

Originally posted by Hud:
Not denying he had a bad game. But he's been demonized here far beyond anyone else.

Because he was not only worse than anyone else, but he also played like a coward.

You are correct in that our LB's were awful, Hawk sucked again, Brad Jones always tackles too high, even Clay was poor in contain and got manhandled by Rudolph blocking him on several key plays. The secondary was poor in run support, Haywood missed a few plays, McMillan got burned in coverage, Burnett whiffed on multiple tackles, etc.... But no one was as bad a Tramon the coward.

Ironically, in a game where the defense looked bad again, I thought the D-line played pretty well.

All this bitching about Tramon and our corners give it a rest already.
Teams would love to have Tramon and Shields and Hayward on their team.
We have very good cornerbacks.

I wonder if Chicago fans were saying bench Tillman and Jennings after Peterson ran all over them too.

You put Jarrett Bush in there and he'll give up a lot more big plays than Tramon. That's a fact. He does his thing on special teams and does it well so leave it be.

Tramon's a good corner. And he's had a pretty damn fine year. But he played like a scared little school boy on Sunday. It's a performance I doubt he, or the coaching staff, will soon forget. Hopefully he comes out and gets his nose in there on Saturday.

And yeah, having Woody back will do wonders for the run defense.

Not having Desmond Bishop or Chuck Woodson in either game were huge factors. Those two might be the best tacklers on the defense.

I actually thought the LBs were just as bad as the DBs on Sunday.

Get it done on Saturday and no one will care about what happened last week.

Packers, for whatever reason, have trouble with AP and this is nothing new. Despite playing much better on D this year, they have given AP 1/5th of his yearly yardage in 1/8th of his games and played equally poorly against him both at home and in the Metrodome. Tackling him needs to be a team effort and everyone is having problems, but as stated many times in this thread there is a huge difference between trying and missing and just not trying.

linebackers were much worse.

Guess who was the lowest rated defensive player in the entire league in week 17?

PFF had a bad day