So, what I am reading is that R&R played while very injured and that's the sole reason for the collapse of the secondary. Many other posters have not given other GB players the same pass (no pun intended). Every player gets injured because its a rough game. Kudo's to them for toughing it out. But if we see the same scheme on defense this year I will pull my hair out so hard I will need one of Dom's spare toupee's to cover it up.
Grave Digger posted:So you admit he can run a successful defense. Glad we're in agreement.
Dude is good for 1 good defense every ten years. McStupidface just knows he is due
The BIGGEST thing--by far, IMHO--that needs "fixed" (and is not related to injury) is to teach those guys to get their eyes out of the backfield.
That's been a problem for several years; Shields even suffered from that same malady often enough, but had the speed to get himself back into the play.
Randall and Rollins don't, and need to be on top of the play from the snap, or opposing WRs will be blowing right by them.
I hope that it was all about being injured with Randall, but I do have some concern that he lacks the temperament to reach his potential. Some of his body language (seemingly not being in a stance in pre-snap) & comments ("ask the coaches") do concern me. I just hope that, like Adams, it was mainly a result of being injured, and / or some immaturity that will correct itself.
PackerPatrick posted:So, what I am reading is that R&R played while very injured and that's the sole reason for the collapse of the secondary.
What you're reading is a bunch of fan opinions, not the gospel truth.
And it's unlikely there's only 1 reason for the secondary's problems.
PackerPatrick posted:So, what I am reading is that R&R played while very injured and that's the sole reason for the collapse of the secondary. Many other posters have not given other GB players the same pass (no pun intended). Every player gets injured because its a rough game. Kudo's to them for toughing it out. But if we see the same scheme on defense this year I will pull my hair out so hard I will need one of Dom's spare toupee's to cover it up.
Yes. Lost the #1 CB, the #2 and #3 are at 50% most of the season, the #4 gets elevated to #1 and is expected to cover OBJ, Julio Jones, Dez Bryant, etc. WTF scheme can function with the best CB being a #4 AT BEST? None. This idea that there is some magical scheme that can cover up such dramatic personnel issues is moronic...just like demanding a scheme cover up for MD Jennings, AJ Hawk, and Brad Jones all starting at the same time. That doesn't exist. Defenses suck when all you have available are below average players, there's no scheme or belly fire motivator that can make chicken salad out of that kind of chicken sh*t. Tom Landry and Buddy Ryan couldn't have schemed SB defenses with some of the starting personnel we've had.
El-Keston-Hiura posted:Grave Digger posted:So you admit he can run a successful defense. Glad we're in agreement.
Dude is good for 1 good defense every ten years. McStupidface just knows he is due
In 2009, Dom's 1st year in GB they had a top tier D. 2nd in yards allowed, 7th in points allowed.
In 2010 they had another top D, they were 5th in yards and 2nd in points allowed.
So by EKH's logic, we have to wait about 2-3 more years for the cycle.
Grave Digger posted:PackerPatrick posted:So, what I am reading is that R&R played while very injured and that's the sole reason for the collapse of the secondary. Many other posters have not given other GB players the same pass (no pun intended). Every player gets injured because its a rough game. Kudo's to them for toughing it out. But if we see the same scheme on defense this year I will pull my hair out so hard I will need one of Dom's spare toupee's to cover it up.
Yes. Lost the #1 CB, the #2 and #3 are at 50% most of the season, the #4 gets elevated to #1 and is expected to cover OBJ, Julio Jones, Dez Bryant, etc. WTF scheme can function with the best CB being a #4 AT BEST? None. This idea that there is some magical scheme that can cover up such dramatic personnel issues is moronic...just like demanding a scheme cover up for MD Jennings, AJ Hawk, and Brad Jones all starting at the same time. That doesn't exist. Defenses suck when all you have available are below average players, there's no scheme or belly fire motivator that can make chicken salad out of that kind of chicken sh*t. Tom Landry and Buddy Ryan couldn't have schemed SB defenses with some of the starting personnel we've had.
GD, you make a good argument. I hope you are right. But the question remains about how best to use the people we have. Press Man or Zone. I think there is plenty of blame to go around for last year. I wonder if R&R's skill set precludes press coverage. Even before they were hurt they were not exactly tackling machines and were often manhandled. A first and second round draft pick outshone by a UDFA the next year. Maybe with the addition of House and King and the safety covering closer to the LOS the scheme will change this year. Or maybe not, because we are thinner at the OLB and when one or more of them get hurt we are back to the same situation.
I think House is the only guy in the group who excels in Press. He has the strength and attitude to disrupt WRs at the line and the speed to make up ground. King, Randall, Gunter, and Rollins are all guys who who probably are better suited to Off Man coverage. They're all quick, with great feet and hips who can stick with receivers, but they all either lack the strength or make-up speed to bully WRs at the line AND not lose ground. None of them belong in Zone heavy scheme, none of them have shown the vision or IQ to drop on a regular basis and not leave gaps in coverage. You need to have to be able to see the QBs eyes and diagnose the routes instantly to be truly effective, that's why Peanut Tillman was so effective in Chicago. He knew where QBs were going with the ball as soon as they knew. Our guys are still pretty young except for House.
Randall is going to be in the Slot from now on it sounds like, that's good IMO. I don't see him as the kind of physical boundary corner we need. He has great quickness and an aggressive attitude that is well suited for the Slot.
I remember House being the only CB who was able to limit J. Jones when here a few years back. I also remember Gunter frustrating OBJ last year. Those guys can do well in the right situation. As much as I wished for Watt to be drafted I am happy that we got a two-fer with King and Josh Jones. So once again, a pseudo first and second round pick. This year we take a former first round pick and put him as a slot CB and sit the second round pick. A stronger pass rush would have been good yet better coverage from DB's is better. Now the question from me is, do we have a DC who can make best use of them? We have given Dom lots of high draft picks, can he use them to the best of their abilities? Time will tell.
Gunter is ideally built to play press and I think King will be too when he fills out a bit. Rollins probably has the mindset for it and Randall is thick enough IMO, but a bit short, but as GD alluded to, the latter two will probably play more slot and are probably more scheme versatile. Hyde was built for zone, as was Hayward.
Disclaimer: I hate zone as the primary coverage on the back end. I got spoiled by Evans, Newsome, McKenzie, Harris, etc.
Hungry5 posted:El-Keston-Hiura posted:Grave Digger posted:So you admit he can run a successful defense. Glad we're in agreement.
Dude is good for 1 good defense every ten years. McStupidface just knows he is due
In 2009, Dom's 1st year in GB they had a top tier D. 2nd in yards allowed, 7th in points allowed.
Then they gave up 274,543 yards and 765 points to AZ in the playoffs. Which is surprising because Dom Capers defenses in GB have historically been bulletproof in the postseason.
PackerPatrick posted:So, what I am reading is that R&R played while very injured and that's the sole reason for the collapse of the secondary.
I wonder if R&R's skill set precludes press coverage. Even before they were hurt they were not exactly tackling machines and were often manhandled.
Sounds like manufacturing a talking point. No one said they were the sole reason. And they were excellent and physical tacklers as rookies. This isn't an insult but it almost sounds like you didn't watch them play their rookie season.
The Packers defense started the season allowing the lowest number of rushing yards in NFL history for a certain stretch of games. It might have been 4 games... then the Cowboys went for a buck eighty.
But to start the season when all we're healthy, the defense was playing really good ball. Then the injuries piled up, and they were vulnerable.
This year's draft addtessed depth and talent. The secondary should be very good going forward.
765 points? I must have missed that AZ playoff game.
DH13 posted:PackerPatrick posted:So, what I am reading is that R&R played while very injured and that's the sole reason for the collapse of the secondary.
I wonder if R&R's skill set precludes press coverage. Even before they were hurt they were not exactly tackling machines and were often manhandled.
Sounds like manufacturing a talking point. No one said they were the sole reason. And they were excellent and physical tacklers as rookies. This isn't an insult but it almost sounds like you didn't watch them play their rookie season.
No insult is taken. I rather enjoy a good counter argument. I learn from them. It was not a talking point just a muse of a thought. Yet I did not see physical tackling even before injuries. There were some good stops now and then but they were hardly tackling machines. And GD did say that he was convinced injuries were the most important factor in the drop in production. Not the scheme. In any case, arguing for it defeats my point on playcalling. The counter to my argument has been that "Dom has done the best he can with what he has". And I don't think so.
" We have given Dom lots of high draft picks,"
BJ Raji was the last high draft pick (#9). Everyone since is #21 or lower. The talent difference between the first third of the 1st round and the last third is a gulf. The Packer's first round picks are a bit better than average. (edit: I mean they are slightly more talented than the average NFL player.) They are not closeted HOFers nor should we expect them to be.
You can argue that Capers has not made the porridge as savory as possible but it's still porridge, not a filet.
heh- I just realized capers are an excellent way to improve flavor. I say let him simmer a while longer.
Matthews, Clark, Perry, Clinton-Dix, Randall. First round picks.
King, Rollins, Josh Jones. Second round picks.
Adams, Fackrell, Burnett. Third round picks.
Thats essentially the starting defense all selected in the first three rounds. The only key guy not listed above might be the best player on the defense. Mike Daniels. Taken in round four. Dom has been given a lot of assets to work with. Its pretty sad that the hope is the 2017 defense is average at the very least. But given the picks on the defense they better damned sure be better than average.
When you are always contenders anything above #60 is a "High Draft Pick". Its the highest picks we have. But I agree not exactly top 10.
Capers are a bit salty for my taste and adding them to porridge sounds awful.
Sliced Lox on a Jalapeño bagel. Hold the Capers
Capers on Lox, ugh. Its hard to find good lox in the south. And I love salmon but got a bad batch this year. I ate it anyway. "If it wasn't for bad lox I wouldn't have no lox at all".
"Capers are a bit salty for my taste and adding them to porridge sounds awful."
Booyah would have probably been the better metaphor.
Capers are (is?) really salty but I, on the other hand, could add them, motor oil or play sand to porridge and count it an improvement.
ChilliJon posted:Matthews, Clark, Perry, Clinton-Dix, Randall. First round picks.
King, Rollins, Josh Jones. Second round picks.
Adams, Fackrell, Burnett. Third round picks.
Thats essentially the starting defense all selected in the first three rounds. The only key guy not listed above might be the best player on the defense. Mike Daniels. Taken in round four. Dom has been given a lot of assets to work with. Its pretty sad that the hope is the 2017 defense is average at the very least. But given the picks on the defense they better damned sure be better than average.
And the bulk of our recent best starters at CB were UDFA. #Whittness
I see the light now. The only way to give Capers a fighting chance is to lose 15 games for the next 3 years so in 7 years (when those early picks are not rookies anymore), Dom can put a solid, consistent defense out there.
So, it's McCarthy's fault?
#winning #somuchwinning #tiredofwinning
PackerPatrick posted:No insult is taken. I rather enjoy a good counter argument. I learn from them. It was not a talking point just a muse of a thought. Yet I did not see physical tackling even before injuries. There were some good stops now and then but they were hardly tackling machines. And GD did say that he was convinced injuries were the most important factor in the drop in production. Not the scheme. In any case, arguing for it defeats my point on playcalling. The counter to my argument has been that "Dom has done the best he can with what he has". And I don't think so.
Then you weren't watching them. They weren't "tackling machines" maybe because they weren't starters and didn't see enough snaps? Just a wild guess. When on the field they were sure tacklers, in stark contrast to the secondary as it existed before they arrived. They were also strong tacklers in college, I think "aggressive" was even used in pre-draft analysis. Rollins showed it more as a rookie than Randall but they were both strong.
Of the players it's actually fair to judge (3+ years in the league):
2014: Round 1: HaHa Clinton-Dix - Good Player
Round 3: Khyri Thornton - Bust/No Longer With Team
2013: Round 1: Datone Jones - Bust/No Longer With Team
2012: Round 1: Nick Perry - Good Player
Round 2: Jerel Worthy - Bust/No Longer With Team
Round 2: Casey Hayward - Good Player/No Longer With Team
2010: Round 2: Mike Neal - Bust/No Longer With Team
Round 3: Morgan Burnett - Good Player
2009: Round 1: BJ Raji - Good Player/No Longer With Team
Round 1: Clay Matthews - Good Player
10 Round 1-3 draft picks:
- 6 good players
- 3 good players have been retained, 1 is in a contract year
- 1 good player was allowed to walk and have an All-Pro season, 1 good player retired prematurely
- 4 are straight up busts and no longer with the team
But yeah I see your point about having all the tools to succeed. 3 players who should be in the prime of their careers coming from the early rounds in 8 years.
Exactly. Since players drafted after the 3rd round don't count, this team needs to commit to losing hardcore if they want to give Capers a fighting chance.
Biggest speed-bump I see is McStupidface who keeps taking the **** Ted drafts for him and turning it into an effective offense.
It's hard for Packer fans to hear this, but we need to adopt the viking way and get those early draft picks if we want to see any kind of success
The Capers system is what it is precisely to compensate for a dearth of dominant talent. It uses 3 down linemen instead of 4 because quick, strong, HEALTHY giants are the rarest athletes. It tries to get mismatches/overmatches by deceit and misdirection because the push goes to the offense.
There are, historically, coaches who seem able to do wonders with most players. Tom Landry and Bill Belichek aren't available to become Packers DC.
Is Capers the best possible option? Probability says no. It also says his replacement is at best an even bet to improve.
The Packer have won far more than they've lost since he came aboard. In the end, that's all that matters to me.
Sorry, I didn't realize the "early defensive picks within the past three year" don't count rule was in effect.
You were the "rules say you have to find kids dressed in blue first on weekends not including Friday" kid when you played hide n go seek weren't you.
I operate under the impression that defensive picks in the early rounds are expected to come in and contribute day one but that's just me.
Oh sorry sir, but since you asked we can dive into the full list of draft picks available from 2009-2014:
- 2014: Round 4: Carl Bradord - Bust
- 2014: Round 6: Demetri Goodson - Bust
- 2013: Round 5: Micah Hyde - Good Player/No Longer With Team
- 2013: Round 5: Josh Boyd - Bust/No Longer With Team
- 2013: Round 6: Nate Palmer - Bust/No Longer With Team
- 2013: Round 7: Sam Barrington - Bust/No Longer With Team
- 2012: Round 4: Mike Daniels - Good Player
- 2012: Round 4: Jerron McMillan - Bust/No Longer With Team
- 2012: Round 5: Terrell Manning - Bust/No Longer With Team
- 2011: Round 4: Davon House - Good Player/Lost For 2 Years
- 2011: Round 6: DJ Smith - Bust/No Longer With Team
- 2011: Round 6: Ricky Elmore - Bust/No Longer With Team
- 2011: Round 7: Lawrence Guy - Average Player/No Longer With Team
- 2010: Round 7: CJ Wilson - Average Player/No Longer With Team
- 2009: Round 6: Jarius Wynn - Bust/No Longer With Team
- 2009: Round 6: Brandon Underwood - Bust/No Longer With Team
- 2009: Round 7: Brad Jones - Bust/No Longer With Team
So in total:
- 27 total defensive draft picks
- 9 good players
- 4 good players have been retained
- 3 good players, all CBs, were allowed to walk after their rookie deals expired
- 1 is in a contract year
- 1 was retained but is now retired
- 2 average players whose best years have been with other teams
- 16 total busts
You probably should have stuck to rounds 1-3 because when you look at the big picture, Ted is only batting .333 with finding defensive talent. I don't think it's a development issue with any of them either because not one of the busts has gone on to contribute anything more than Khyri Thornton's 1 sack for Detoilet in 2016. Ted has sucked at finding talent in the draft since 2009. He did well early finding guys like Collins, Bishop, and Tramon and retaining guys like Cullen Jenkins and Nick Barnett, but it's taken years for Ted to find replacements for all of those guys.
Also I didn't include players from 2015, 2016, or 2017 because it's too soon to say whether any of them are busts or good players. AJ Hawk looked great early on and then sucked. We have 1 year of production and 1 injured year from our CBs, that's not enough to form any kind of rational opinion.
You forgot the rookie UDFAs. They need to be considered as well.
I couldn't care less how they acquire a player, as long as that player contributes.
- 2014: LB Jayrone Elliot - Good Player
- 2014: LB Jake Doughty - No Longer With Team
- 2014: DE Carlos Gray - No Longer With Team
- 2014: LB Adrian Hubbard - No Longer With Team
- 2014: NT Mike Pennel - Average Player/No Longer With Team
- 2014: LB Joe Thomas - Average Player
- 2014: CB Ryan White - No Longer With Team
- 2014: S Tanner Miller - No Longer With Team
- 2014: S Charles Clay - No Longer With Team
- 2014: DE Luther Robinson - No Longer With Team
- 2014: LB Shaun Lewis - No Longer With Team
- 2013: S Ben Erickson - No Longer With Team
- 2013: NT Gilbert Pena - No Longer With Team
- 2013: OLB Andy Mulumba - Average Player/No Longer With Team
- 2012: OLB Dezman Moses - Average Player/No Longer With Team
- 2012: OLB Jaymar Latchison - No Longer With Team
- 2012: DE Drew Vanderlin - No Longer With Team
- 2012: S Sean Richardson - Average Player/No Longer With Team
- 2011: S Anthony Bratton - No Longer With Team
- 2011: S MD Jennings - No Longer With Team
- 2011: LB Elijah Joseph - No Longer With Team
- 2011: LB Jamari Lattimore - Average Player/No Longer With Team
- 2011: CB Brandian Ross - No Longer With Team
- 2011: LB Vic So'oto - No Longer With Team
- 2010: CB Sam Shields - Good Player/No Longer With Team
- 2010: LB Frank Zombo - Average Player/No Longer With Team
- 2010: LB Alex Joseph - No Longer With Team
- 2010: LB Tim Kinicky - No Longer With Team
- 2010: LB John Russell - No Longer With Team
- 2010: S Anthony Levine - No Longer With Team
- 2010: NT Aleric Mullins - No Longer With Team
- 2009: LB Cyril Obiozor - No Longer With Team
- 2009: LB Ronald Talley - No Longer With Team
- 2009: DL Dean Muhtadi - No Longer With Team
2 good players, 1 of which we had from 2010 through 2015. 7 average players with Zombo being the only one who has actually contributed to another team.
Holy **** he sucks at developing players
His chicken salad (made with pure chicken ****) recipe isn't very good either.
We can both agree to that. Dude sucks at everything
