Apologizing for Dom

For all the TT love, most of it deserved, he's been very bad at drafting front-seven talent. He's gotten the same number of long-term, productive players (2) as Mike Sherman (Matthews/Daniels vs. Kampman/Barnett) and about the same proportion of league viable starting players (front seven) in his drafts. His front-seven drafting has been pretty damned brutal, regardless of his terrific track record on offense and in the defensive backfield.  

The Raji guy sucked.

DH13 posted:

Can "championship caliber" D have lapses in crunch time?  The 2014/15 D was playing better than the offense at the end of the year and into the playoffs.  They had their foot on SEA's throat for 50m.  Hell, if you subtract 2 giant ST's gaffes they still did enough to win that game.  They should have beat NE two weeks later.

That F game will live longer and harder than 4th and 26.

I still feel the gorge rise in my throat.  

Other games like 4th and 26 are heartbreaking, even maddening.  That ****ing game defies explanation.  That game alone is a franchise scar/joke the likes of the Vajeen collapse of 98.

Raji had one very good year and part of another.  That's a little under Corey Williams and I counted as a viable starter. 

I question your comparison of Barnett to Matthews.  Nobody could get to the hole only to get washed out faster than Barnett.

Otherwise the complaint is legit.

Edit:  Actually, I take it back. Sherman ****ing sucked at drafting, implementing and running defenses.  TT's guys are pretty average at times but they are on the field and performing.  Sherman had none of that.  He ****ing blew at defense.

My take on Dom: his coverage schemes used to be overly complex and when he was given too many young players, it caused a ridiculous number of blown assignments.  8 year vets who have played together for years would excel in the scheme but rookies don't.  I think he simplified the scheme a bit in recent years as he realized that with TT's approach to building a team, that he was always going to have young players.  Complex zone blitzes don't work when a good number of players in coverage are first and second year players.  

I think he's a good DC but IMO, he's not a guy that will do more with what he has.  Some coaches will make an offense or defense better than the sum of it's parts and I don't Dom is that guy.  Give him good players, and he'll make a good defense.  Give him below average players, and he produces a below average defense.  

Fair assessment but I would add when the it really counts seems to be when his defenses have the biggest breakdowns.  Surely it's amplified by the stage but The Wizard gets outwizarded to often and that isn't all players.

I have no love for Dom, and while players bear some responsibility, there's no question that it is not just players.  Year in/year out, the same problems recur: communication issues on the back end, inability to shut down or at least slow down top tier QB/WR combos (e.g., Manning/D.Thomas, Rivers/Keenan Allen in 2015), inability to close out games where the O has provided a lead, 3-man rushes on third and long, and awful run D.

Henry posted:

Fair assessment but I would add when the it really counts seems to be when his defenses have the biggest breakdowns.  Surely it's amplified by the stage but The Wizard gets outwizarded to often and that isn't all players.

I think Henry makes a good point, but this (the playoff games) when they are playing teams with the highest talent level that can take advantage of weaknesses.

I would argue that the loss in the Kaepernik-goes crazy game was a schematic weakness that Dom should have made adjustments but seemed utterly incapable of doing so. That loss was almost entirely on coaching and scheme.

Most of the other times, the other team went after specific players that were physically overmatched (for years, our safeties and inside linebackers). It's been endlessly debated whose fault it was for running AJ Hawk, Brad Jones, and Charlie Peprah types out there for years, but well-coached playoff teams with talent will take advantage of those types of players.

Henry posted:

I question your comparison of Barnett to Matthews.  Nobody could get to the hole only to get washed out faster than Barnett.

Otherwise the complaint is legit.

Edit:  Actually, I take it back. Sherman ****ing sucked at drafting, implementing and running defenses.  TT's guys are pretty average at times but they are on the field and performing.  Sherman had none of that.  He ****ing blew at defense.

The days of Ed Donnatell and Bob Slowik are still fresh enough for me to keep my fussing and kvetching about Capers to a minimum.

Henry posted:

DH13 posted:

Can "championship caliber" D have lapses in crunch time?  The 2014/15 D was playing better than the offense at the end of the year and into the playoffs.  They had their foot on SEA's throat for 50m.  Hell, if you subtract 2 giant ST's gaffes they still did enough to win that game.  They should have beat NE two weeks later.

That F game will live longer and harder than 4th and 26.

I still feel the gorge rise in my throat.  

Other games like 4th and 26 are heartbreaking, even maddening.  That ****ing game defies explanation.  That game alone is a franchise scar/joke the likes of the Vajeen collapse of 98.

The common denominator in both games was two key situations when they played not to lose instead of to win. In both situations there was relatively little risk in being aggressive.

The 4th and 26 game would have been over had they gone for it on 4th and 1 from the 40 with Ahman Green and the best run blocking GB has ever had. Green is probably a 75% chance of getting that yard. Instead, punt into the end zone to gain 20 yards.

The Seattle game is probably over if Morgan Burnett keeps running with that 4th quarter interception. Instead, Peppers tells him to slide with at least 15 yards of extra field open to him even if he runs directly at an angle to the sideline. Heck, he may even score. Instead, he slides so as not to risk a fumble with no one near him.  If he runs to his left he gets 15 yards. If he runs to his right, he probably takes it to the house.

Pretty sure Dom Capers will ruin Jared Cook

You wish. I know you're looking for one more reason to finally assassinate the Wizard. 

EKB hasnt been the same since Hawk and Capers gratified Mrs. Bong simultaneously.

https://www.facebook.com/31553...790/518926838137874/

Henry's real name is Mike?

Henry posted:

I question your comparison of Barnett to Matthews.  Nobody could get to the hole only to get washed out faster than Barnett.

Otherwise the complaint is legit.

Edit:  Actually, I take it back. Sherman ****ing sucked at drafting, implementing and running defenses.  TT's guys are pretty average at times but they are on the field and performing.  Sherman had none of that.  He ****ing blew at defense.

I think you're being pretty generous calling most of TT's guys average and on the field. Harrell, Worthy, Thornton, Neal, Jeremy Thompson and Hodge were all high-round players who never really did dick, though Neal eventually at LB has been an okay rotational guy. Hawk was never really any good, but he was on the field. Bradford, Palmer, Elmore, DJ Smith, Brad Jones, Jarius Wynn, Mike Montgomery and probably a few other guys I'm forgetting never made up for any of them either, and Barrington is still on that fence. 

I paid that guy to add Campen.  He was all pissed off at Capers and Trgo so I figured I'd get him to throw Campen in there.

Herschel posted:

Henry posted:

I question your comparison of Barnett to Matthews.  Nobody could get to the hole only to get washed out faster than Barnett.

Otherwise the complaint is legit.

Edit:  Actually, I take it back. Sherman ****ing sucked at drafting, implementing and running defenses.  TT's guys are pretty average at times but they are on the field and performing.  Sherman had none of that.  He ****ing blew at defense.

I think you're being pretty generous calling most of TT's guys average and on the field. Harrell, Worthy, Thornton, Neal, Jeremy Thompson and Hodge were all high-round players who never really did dick, though Neal eventually at LB has been an okay rotational guy. Hawk was never really any good, but he was on the field. Bradford, Palmer, Elmore, DJ Smith, Brad Jones, Jarius Wynn, Mike Montgomery and probably a few other guys I'm forgetting never made up for any of them either, and Barrington is still on that fence. 

And TT has rolled the bottom of the roster and gotten some production.  Is it stellar?  No but there is no way you can even make the comparison between Sherman's defensive drafting and TT's.  Sherman sucked across the board when it came to defense.  Some of those stiffs didn't even get on the damn field and if they did they were freakin' horrible.  Guh, those defenses were a joke.   I mean he was ****ing horrible.

I generally agreed with your assertion TT hasn't hit in all areas but then I was like, "Wait a minute, Sherman was a ****ing trainwreck on defense".  And not a little bit either and across the board.  

Seriously, I can't say it enough how otherworldly horrific Sherman was with defense.

No really, he sucked.

Sherman made it to the NFL due to his offensive line knowledge. And that was mostly in run blocking.

I'm not claiming Sherman was good at drafting front-seven talent, far from it, he only had a few hits also, but there's a reason the guys that actually got on the field for TT churned instead of sticking. TT has been pretty proactive about re-signing even marginal talents who were at all reliable (*cough* Hawk *cough*). There's been a fairly substantial dearth of talent there since the mid-nineties.  

May be more useful to compare the D players each GM hit rather than missed.  How many blue chip D players did Sherman draft or acquire?  As a reference, here are MS's drafts:

1 10 Jamal Reynolds DE Florida State
2 41 Robert Ferguson WR Texas A&M
3 71 Bhawoh Jue SS Penn State
3 72 Torrance Marshall LB Oklahoma
4 105 Bill Ferrario G Wisconsin
6 198 David Martin TE Tennessee

2002:
1 20 Javon Walker WR Florida State
3 92 Marques Anderson SS UCLA
4 135 Najeh Davenport FB Miami (Fla.)
5 156 Aaron Kampman DE Iowa
5 164 Craig Nall QB Northwestern State-Louisiana
6 200 Mike Houghton G San Diego State

2003:
1 29 Nick Barnett MLB Oregon State
3 79 Kenny Peterson DE Ohio State
5 147 James Lee DT Oregon State
5 166 Hunter Hillenmeyer LB Vanderbilt
6 212 Brennan Curtin T Notre Dame
7 245 Chris Johnson DB Louisville
7 253 DeAndrew Rubin -- South Florida
7 256 Carl Ford WR Toledo
7 257 Steve Josue LB Carson-Newman

2004:
1 25 Ahmad Carroll CB Arkansas
3 70 Joey Thomas CB Montana State
3 72 Donnell Washington DT Clemson
3 87 B.J. Sander P Ohio State
6 179 Corey Williams DT Arkansas State
7 251 Scott Wells C Tennessee

So...Aaron Kampman and Nick Barnett were his best D players.  Jebus.  I never looked at this list before and it appears that 4 total players were decent starters out of 27.  I didn't realize the rest of his drafts were so bad.  Wasn't Mike McKenzie drafted in 04?

"there are only so many big athletic men on the planet"

Which has been worse since 2010.

Playoff defense or Playoff offense?

Ouch.

You kind of miss the point, but Kampman, Barnett, Corey Williams and probably Hillenmeyer were all starting-caliber, front-seven players in Sherman's three drafts. The Jamal Reynolds draft was Ron Wolf's. Sherman had coached the Senior Bowl and really wanted either Marcus Stroud and Chad Johnson, supposedly. TT in 11 has had Matthews, Daniels, Raji, Poppinga, Jolly and Bishop.

The point isn't that Sherman was masterful, but that TT has really struggled finding front-seven players. Compare that with TT on offense where he's done really well. 

I don't think there are many or any GMs who are really adept at consistently finding front 7 talent. Find a star player like CM3, Von Miller, Haloti Ngata, Terrell Suggs, Vince Wilfork and then keep throwing bodies out there to support them until you strike gold with a Jamie Collins or Mike Daniels. 

Herschel posted:

You kind of miss the point...

The point isn't that Sherman was masterful, but...

That's probably why I missed the point.  Mine was that Sherman wasn't just bad drafting front 7, he was bad across the board.

Hillenmeyer was so good they ****ing cut him so he could become a starter for the Bears. Great talant evaluating.

DH13 posted:

So...Aaron Kampman and Nick Barnett were his best D players.  Jebus.  I never looked at this list before and it appears that 4 total players were decent starters out of 27.  I didn't realize the rest of his drafts were so bad.  Wasn't Mike McKenzie drafted in 04?

Drafted in 99, traded in 04

Rusty posted:

DH13 posted:

So...Aaron Kampman and Nick Barnett were his best D players.  Jebus.  I never looked at this list before and it appears that 4 total players were decent starters out of 27.  I didn't realize the rest of his drafts were so bad.  Wasn't Mike McKenzie drafted in 04?

Drafted in 99, traded in 04

1999 was the year that Ron Wolf basically just decided to draft a bunch of DBs at the top because he thought they had no chance to beat Randy Moss twice a year if he didn't get better DBs. McKenzie was the only one that turned out (but they were able to trade Vinson for Ahman Green).

Craig Nall isn't counted as a "plus" draft pick?

this thread is null and void

Hater.

Great post above, michiganpacker. Although this part is open to some debate (not in this thread, though).

"the best run blocking GB has ever had"

Ahem.

Henry posted:

The path from scheme to execution looks something like this.  

 

Clearly AJ Hawk shouldn't have been training in Molasses Swamp and Johnny Jolly spent too much time at GumDrop Pass.

In 1999 the Packers drafted their all-time leading receiver and Fred Vinson whom they traded (along with a fifth round draft pick) for their all time leading rusher.

Not a bad draft.

Sandwich

Uncle Ted tries to draft BIG hand guys.  And we all know what that means.  

3 cups spinach sautéed in garlic. Scramble in 2 eggs with a dash of pepper.

@Whole30