Aaron Rodgers will have more than one ring when it’s done. And McCarthy will be his coach.
Grave Digger posted:Like 2? Hayward and Hyde? Woodson and Peppers did about the same elsewhere.
Considering their VAST improvement simply by changing teams, yeah I'd call that a pretty solid sign your player development sucks.
As to your collection of scrubs and burnouts who accompanied some incredibly solid players I'll leave you with this statement:
(Pettine’s system) will make good players great. If you’re an average player, you’ll be good. There were times when Mike and I were together, we literally had no NFL corner, and yet we found a way to make it work… If you love the game, then these guys died and went to heaven in this system.
— Rex Ryan
The Wizard. "Let's call this defense the Whirling Spicy Meatball".
Or it could just be scheme fit. Gus Bradley (SD) and Sean McDermott (BUF) both run aggressive 4-3's that feature CBs heavily, similar to Seattle (Sherman) and Carolina (Norman). Hyde and Hayward are CBs with great instincts, I'm not surprised either are succeeding. They both had success in GB which is how they landed solid contracts elsewhere, TT ultimately made the decision to let them walk also, not Dom or MM. Look at what Gute has done for Pettine right away: bolstered pass rush with Mo Wilkerson, brought in 2 talented ball hawking cover CBs, brought in an athletic cover LB, and bolstered VETERAN depth at CB with Tramon and resigning House. TT had success with Sam Shields and thought he could moneyball a championship defense with UDFA's like Joe Thomas. I'm sure Pettine's D will have more success, but it won't be a apples/apples comparison of 2017 because of the talent upgrade and the lack of emphasis on UDFA's playing crucial roles. It doesn't really matter though, if we are having success on D who will actually give a sh*t what happened in the past? Enjoy the success.
Did you say scheme? Ultimately I don't give a **** if they succeed but you're essentially absolving one very important person who is still running the team. Like I said, you can blame TT for his FA approach and he was long in the tooth but this wholesale absolution of Capers and MM is just silly. Particularly after last year. That coaching staff ****ing sucked and there are small slivers of suck remaining.
Again, in regards to players excelling because of scheme.
(Pettine’s system) will make good players great. If you’re an average player, you’ll be good. There were times when Mike and I were together, we literally had no NFL corner, and yet we found a way to make it work… If you love the game, then these guys died and went to heaven in this system.
Here's another question. What is TT supposed to do with guys that underperform because of the scheme? Pay them because in any other scheme they would be good? Tell MM and Capers to get a scheme that works? If MM is being loyal to a Capers and horse**** scheme what exactly does a GM do? For **** sakes, how many different "player types" to fit The Wizard's "new scheme" year in and year were there? Like I said, you can blame TT for some issues but when you tell me Hayward and Hyde succeeded because of scheme how does that reflect on MM holding onto that turd bouquet? And then on top of it look so completely ****ing inept on offense when Rodgers isn't around?
MM doesn't get to walk away from this without some serious culpability.
Grave Digger posted:I'm sure Pettine's D will have more success, but it won't be a apples/apples comparison of 2017 because of the talent upgrade and the lack of emphasis on UDFA's playing crucial roles.
oh for ****s sake
And another thing, your talent acquisition has some serious holes. One, GoofySnoofy picked at the highest position since 2009. How many shotgun drafts did TT go through to strain out at least one solid player? Are you now saying you had all of those drafts pegged as failures? If you want to do your comparison then it stands a FA's and FA's only.
I like the Wilkerson signing as well but he is on a prove it contract.
Henry posted:Here's another question. What is TT supposed to do with guys that underperform because of the scheme? Pay them because in any other scheme they would be good? Tell MM and Capers to get a scheme that works? If MM is being loyal to a Capers and horse**** scheme what exactly does a GM do? For **** sakes, how many different "player types" to fit The Wizard's "new scheme" year in and year were there? Like I said, you can blame TT for some issues but when you tell me Hayward and Hyde succeeded because of scheme how does that reflect on MM holding onto that turd bouquet? And then on top of it look so completely ****ing inept on offense when Rodgers isn't around?
MM doesn't get to walk away from this without some serious culpability.
MM held on too long to fire Capers, we're not arguing that. Because that's a fact does not also mean he's a disappointing coach. Capers got fired because performed poorly, I don't think there's any argument about that. Just because I've maintained that firing Capers wasn't the 1000% solution to another SB does not mean I'm absolving him of performance issues. There was a talent issue, I already gave you a laundry list of suck that started multiple games for this team since 2011. Why did they start multiple games? Because they were the BPAs that this staff had to throw out there. That really fukkin sucks. TT consistently paid guys who underperformed (Hawk, Brad Jones) and didn't pay guys who actually did perform (Hayward, Hyde). Hayward and Hyde didn't underperform in GB, they got good contracts to go elsewhere. Maybe McDermott and Bradley are utilizing them better, those two are obviously better DC's than Capers. Gute is attacking the talent problem because he recognized it as well, same issue as TE and OT depth. He's bringing in vets instead of UDFA's because there was a problem bigger than Capers.
All offenses revolve around the franchise QB. It's how the NFL is built. It's why the Colts took a dump when Luck went down. Teams that aren't built around franchise QBs and can afford to pay quality backups without investing 50% of the cap in the QB position can handle that loss better than teams that are. Every team will look like sh*t when there's no quality backup, Matt Cassell's miracle 11-5 year was an outlier.
Evidence: Have not heard one rumor of any team being interested in hiring Capers... Whether you're given quality players or not, you find a way to get it done as best you can and your players can. You put them into positions to excel. That is a foreign concept to Capers.
This is the type of coach I hope Pettine is: "He can take his'n and beat your'n, and take your'n and beat his'n." (said by Florida A&M's Jake Gaither about Bear Bryant)
Grave Digger posted:Henry posted:Here's another question. What is TT supposed to do with guys that underperform because of the scheme? Pay them because in any other scheme they would be good? Tell MM and Capers to get a scheme that works? If MM is being loyal to a Capers and horse**** scheme what exactly does a GM do? For **** sakes, how many different "player types" to fit The Wizard's "new scheme" year in and year were there? Like I said, you can blame TT for some issues but when you tell me Hayward and Hyde succeeded because of scheme how does that reflect on MM holding onto that turd bouquet? And then on top of it look so completely ****ing inept on offense when Rodgers isn't around?
MM doesn't get to walk away from this without some serious culpability.
MM held on too long to fire Capers, we're not arguing that. Because that's a fact does not also mean he's a disappointing coach. Capers got fired because performed poorly, I don't think there's any argument about that. Just because I've maintained that firing Capers wasn't the 1000% solution to another SB does not mean I'm absolving him of performance issues. There was a talent issue, I already gave you a laundry list of suck that started multiple games for this team since 2011. Why did they start multiple games? Because they were the BPAs that this staff had to throw out there. That really fukkin sucks. TT consistently paid guys who underperformed (Hawk, Brad Jones) and didn't pay guys who actually did perform (Hayward, Hyde). Hayward and Hyde didn't underperform in GB, they got good contracts to go elsewhere. Maybe McDermott and Bradley are utilizing them better, those two are obviously better DC's than Capers. Gute is attacking the talent problem because he recognized it as well, same issue as TE and OT depth. He's bringing in vets instead of UDFA's because there was a problem bigger than Capers.
All offenses revolve around the franchise QB. It's how the NFL is built. It's why the Colts took a dump when Luck went down. Teams that aren't built around franchise QBs and can afford to pay quality backups without investing 50% of the cap in the QB position can handle that loss better than teams that are. Every team will look like sh*t when there's no quality backup, Matt Cassell's miracle 11-5 year was an outlier.
So if The Wizard is still here and Geekdafreek is GM this defense is lights out?
I've already stated The Wizard suck factor was a given. What exposed MM the most was the **** offensive staff. Nobody expects this team to be nearly as good with Rodgers out but that offense was a ****ing joke along with the coaches who were responsible for it. Did TT suck at getting offensive talent too? Was that entire team so devoid of talent that Rodgers is literally the whole offense and defense? And if that's the case why the **** would you hold onto a HC that's instantly bottom feeder material because one guy equates to 22? Why even have a coach?
He's an OC at best. That's it. He couldn't focus on defense without the offense sliding because his coaching staff sucks. He left a **** defensive scheme in play like it was it's own little island. He and Philbin can OC themselves into a coma while Rodgers makes them look like geniuses until they actually have to do something without him and fall flat on their faces.
Oh yeah, Tom "The Wizard of Offense" Clements. Did TT fail him too? Is Clements even employed in the NFL anymore?
Oh yeah, Alex Smith. I wonder what MM's career would look like if he stuck with the guy he wanted in Alex Smith.
He'd be coaching at a high school in Pittsburgh for the last 5 years.
I guess we just disagree Hank. I think McCarthy is one of the best HC’s in NFL history, top 25 for sure. He’s made staff mistakes, all HCs have, it happens. He will get another title before his career is over and enter the HOF at some point I think.
I'm with Hank on this one....
"The QB room is fine!!!" - MM
I can't begin to tell you how much that statement irks me.
3 years...3 effing years of Hundley in the QB room & he still hasn't thrown a TD pass in Lambeau.
There is only 1 way MM can make it up to me.
Win the whole effing thing!
I concur. He's above average, but his flaws were unveiled last year on offense.
Too conservative, plays not to lose, and gets out coached in tight games.
(no balls)
So if I'm getting this correct, Capers was way overdue t be replaced, McCarthy is nothing more than a glorified OC with a HC title, he's done a poor job hiring/firing his coaches, who were mostly poor at coaching up / developing young players.
And Rodgers hid a bunch of those flaws.
Yep. Thanks Ted. Another reason I place the blame on the Packers being very good but not great (with the exception of only 1 SB) with AR at the helm squarely on the shoulders of TT. I don't know if Gutekunst is the answer, but the last several years, Thompson was the WRONG answer.
Yup. Mike Sherman like at times in playing not to lose. Not BB like
GD:
MM held on too long to fire Capers, we're not arguing that. Because that's a fact does not also mean he's a disappointing coach.
I am guessing you are intending "coach" to mean what he does with the players. But, a head coach has to have management skills and in this case, McCarthy not dumping Capers sooner is horrific management, making McCarthy a very disappointing coach.
I am in the middle on this one. Sure MM has his issues as a coach but I would bet good money if he got canned in GB he would be unemployed for about 24 hours I do think he is that good. BUT his issue to me has always been the defense and just not getting it fixed and that I totally lay blame on him for not doing that. There is loyalty to one of your employees but when they fail over and over and over again at some point you have to pull the trigger and get rid of Capers.
PackLandVA posted:So if I'm getting this correct, Capers was way overdue t be replaced, McCarthy is nothing more than a glorified OC with a HC title, he's done a poor job hiring/firing his coaches, who were mostly poor at coaching up / developing young players.
And Rodgers hid a bunch of those flaws.
Yep. Thanks Ted. Another reason I place the blame on the Packers being very good but not great (with the exception of only 1 SB) with AR at the helm squarely on the shoulders of TT. I don't know if Gutekunst is the answer, but the last several years, Thompson was the WRONG answer.
So again MM and The Wizard take no responsibility for just flat out sucking ass. A hands off approach can be just as bad as a micromanaging approach. TT had his time, got long in the tooth and now he's gone. Funny MM is still there as HC and will never take any blame apparently. Outside of Marvin Lewis I've never seen a head coach continually get a pass as much as MM. Even Jeff Fischer gets fired.
MM blew it bigtime with Capers (as we all know) as well as with not knowing what he didn't have with Hundley.
Huge mishaps. Just huge.
His playoff push in 2010 was awesome.
Do you consider Mike Tomlin a disappointing coach Hank?
phaedrus posted:GD:
MM held on too long to fire Capers, we're not arguing that. Because that's a fact does not also mean he's a disappointing coach.
I am guessing you are intending "coach" to mean what he does with the players. But, a head coach has to have management skills and in this case, McCarthy not dumping Capers sooner is horrific management, making McCarthy a very disappointing coach.
When the defense was the very thing that failed this team year in and year out it's more than disappointing.
Let's look at it this way. TT ****ed up. The Wizard always ****ed up. MM ****ed up. So, of those 3 who is still around and why? Well, we know Rodgers likes MM's scheme and why wouldn't he, it's the only one he's played in. It's pretty safe to say it's as much as Rodgers scheme as it is MM's. So what else could possibly explain why MM takes no blame? Oh right, Rodgers contract is coming up. MM's job is as much a olive branch as it is anything. You aren't telling Rodgers everything is going to change right before he's due to sign. I don't think any QB likes that prospect and I've seen other very good QBs do the same thing in defending their current coaches. I would say with a large degree of certainty that HerdyGerdy saw the need for diplomacy as much as continuity in keeping Rodgers happy. Great. Rodgers is the guy who will get the Super Bowl victory but again he bails MM out.
Grave Digger posted:Do you consider Mike Tomlin a disappointing coach Hank?
Do you think he's one of the best HCs in league history?
I like answering questions with questions.
The Heckler posted:I am in the middle on this one. Sure MM has his issues as a coach but I would bet good money if he got canned in GB he would be unemployed for about 24 hours I do think he is that good. BUT his issue to me has always been the defense and just not getting it fixed and that I totally lay blame on him for not doing that. There is loyalty to one of your employees but when they fail over and over and over again at some point you have to pull the trigger and get rid of Capers.
That may be the case but that's what happened with Andy Reid, just to name one, and it was completely justified. Reid has done pretty well of late. Good for him. I can't imagine there are a whole lot of Philly fans clamoring for his return.
Lovie, great DC, not a good HC. Zimmer, great DC, not sure I'd hang great or even good HC on him just yet. Zimmer is riding years of Viking failure culminating in years of high draft picks. He's a great DC. Let's see what happens without Shurmur. There was a lot of The Norvening happening early on in his tenure as well.
Edit: As to The Norvening, Norv didn't stick around too long did he. Advantage, Zimmer.
MM is a great OC and maybe an average HC. Doesn't mean his time isn't up in Green Bay.
Henry, I was in the blow it all up camp. It seemed everyone was in the camp of getting rid of everyone or everyone but MM.
I agree that TT certainly deserves blame as well. He should have dumped Capers with or without MM's approval. I'm also not a big fan of the recent drafts. Unpopular, but he should have signed Moss.
This is wild. It's almost like we're discussing Dan Devine at times.
His record: 66% winning %, 0 losing seasons in 10 years, a SB, and lots of personnel mistakes covered up by a franchise QB. Yeah I do think he is. Your turn.
So do I. Crunch these just about any way you want. He's in the discussion.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/
That all doesn't magically disappear after on very disappointing season. The moves have been made, now we get to watch it play out. I have very, very high hopes.
Keeping Capers as long as he did likely costed championship(s). His good qualities do not negate that.
So he fired Capers and hired Pettine. But no matter what happens, it's the ifs that matter, not the whats.
OK. That's just not how I roll.
Grave Digger posted:Rodgers record : 66% winning %, 0 losing seasons in 10 years, a SB, and lots of personnel mistakes and hampered by a **** defensive scheme due to ineffectual management. Yeah I do think he is. Your turn.
That was Mike Tomlin's record actually. Also McCarthy's record predates Rodgers, he in fact is responsible for Rodgers development. McCarthy's record is 63% winning %, 1 championship, 2 losing season in 12 years. For comparison sake, HOF coach Mike Holmgren had a 59% winning %, 1 championship, 2 losing seasons in 17 years.
Brak posted:So he fired Capers and hired Pettine. But no matter what happens, it's the ifs that matter, not the whats.
OK. That's just not how I roll.
But did he? It's really hard to say MM was in the driver seat when Murphy made some serious organizational changes and bringing in a new GM. Murphy didn't just clean house, he remodeled it. I'm pretty sure MM, being the equivalent of the harvest gold dryer in the corner, had no choice in the matter. Let's refer to the "starting from page 1" comments about the offense. Well, why the hell would you do that MM? Is it because your old playbook and coaching methods proved to be pretty horse**** without Rodgers? Not just bad, but avocado green bad.
I really don't even mind that MM survived by clinging to Rodgers skirts. They work well together. Philbin seems to help MM as well. Like I said, two OCs and Rodgers with a new GM and competent DC will get you a Super Bowl.
That still doesn't excuse years of failure after being so thoroughly exposed last year.
Grave Digger posted:That was Mike Tomlin's record actually. Also McCarthy's record predates Rodgers, he in fact is responsible for Rodgers development. McCarthy's record is 63% winning %, 1 championship, 2 losing season in 12 years. For comparison sake, HOF coach Mike Holmgren had a 59% winning %, 1 championship, 2 losing seasons in 17 years.
Yeah, I don't care about Tomlin. Talking about Tomlin is as good as ducking the subject at hand. Not happening.
Oh and BTW, isn't this whole discussion predicated on what MM hasn't been able to do, including competent management, with a celestial type talent like Rodgers?
All TT right? Of course.
I believe MM fired Capers and hired Pettine, yes.