these are some real fascinating thoughts and speculations!
I think it was all the result of birefringence myself. It's always birefringence.
This is the summary of my argument. MM failed as much as The Wizard and TT. He's already shown he can't manage both elements of a team and when the bottom falls out things get even more questionable. Great OC, glad to have him. Quit giving him a pass.
Tdog posted:these are some real fascinating thoughts and speculations!
I think it was all the result of birefringence myself. It's always birefringence.
I thought it was all ball bearings these days?
Last comment (lies are OK now), but one of my favorites from the Gravedigger excuse generator is that Dom Capers is a fine coach, but who could expect him to make chicken salad out of chicken ****? Lets just indulge the idea Dom was handed chicken **** (which is potentially useful if applied correctly), Dom somehow managed to turn chicken **** into radioactive, airborne ebola.
El-Ka-Bong posted:...Dom somehow managed to turn chicken **** into radioactive, airborne ebola.
Also, potentially useful, IMO.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Last comment (lies are OK now), but one of my favorites from the Gravedigger excuse generator is that Dom Capers is a fine coach, but who could expect him to make chicken salad out of chicken ****? Lets just indulge the idea Dom was handed chicken **** (which is potentially useful if applied correctly), Dom somehow managed to turn chicken **** into radioactive, airborne ebola.
Yes, all things are relative.
Please, pass me the chicken****.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Last comment (lies are OK now), but one of my favorites from the Gravedigger excuse generator is that Dom Capers is a fine coach, but who could expect him to make chicken salad out of chicken ****? Lets just indulge the idea Dom was handed chicken **** (which is potentially useful if applied correctly), Dom somehow managed to turn chicken **** into radioactive, airborne ebola.
You're so triggered by my differing opinion. I don't get it. I think he's an okay coach who could field a top 10 defense if guys like Josh Hawkins weren't the best guys available at their positions. I think our GM agrees with me which is why he brought in 3 new CBs.
No, it's just coincidence after the entire front office was shaken up after the defense failed for 9 years running. I'm sure Original AG wasn't feeling any heat at all since he restructured the entire front office anyways.
What I don't get is why didn't Murphy just make AG the GM? I mean this guy is Belichek good or at least Andy Reid good. Maybe AG was feeling magnanimous and wanted to give that little rascal gurfenturd a shot at GM and make Murphy feel like he had some juice too.
Wait so it's plausible this rookie GM is forcing a DC on MM, but you say the veteran GM with a SB couldn't possibly have forced the former DC on MM (which I don't believe either)?
Grave Digger posted:El-Ka-Bong posted:Last comment (lies are OK now), but one of my favorites from the Gravedigger excuse generator is that Dom Capers is a fine coach, but who could expect him to make chicken salad out of chicken ****? Lets just indulge the idea Dom was handed chicken **** (which is potentially useful if applied correctly), Dom somehow managed to turn chicken **** into radioactive, airborne ebola.
You're so triggered by my differing opinion. I don't get it. I think he's an okay coach who could field a top 10 defense if guys like Josh Hawkins weren't the best guys available at their positions. I think our GM agrees with me which is why he brought in 3 new CBs.
All the previous GM brought in were bums like Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde. Guys who have busted elsewhere. Why can’t we get Capers just one decent corner? Sad! 
BTW, anyone else notice how much less racist Micah Hyde is since he got away from Capers?
I think McCarthy has a bit of pressure on him this year. Not nuclear inferno pressure, but he needs to produce after having things go his way this off-season. New power structure at 1265 - where's my silo ?, New (preferred ?) GM with less clout than the last one, New OC (Philbin should raise McCarthy's game day IQ), New DC (how could it take this long ?), etc... except for HC that's a clean sweep. Time for results.
After last year where his 3yr QB pupal was an embarrassment, it seemed more evident than ever that Rodgers is carrying this team...and McCarthy. Was Thompson at fault for some of the shortcomings, definitely yes. But McCarthy has some real blemishes on his record while having a generational QB at his disposal....One of the worst failures in Wisconsin Sports history(NFCC loss to Seattle) where he was severely out-coached and went turtle up. Mind numbing use of timeouts, clock management, challenge use, "we do what we do" stubbornness, Capers, etc....heard he was visibly upset when asked by a reporter if any of the training methods are changing due to the occurrence of repetitive injuries - defiant, "not changing anything" , we do what we do. WTF ??
I'm sure the above is seen as being overly critical of a guy that's had McCarthy's success. He is a good coach, but, Again, he's had a generational QB at his disposal and has gone to 1 Super Bowl. Hopefully this off-seasons changes will help negate some of McCarthy's shortcomings, cause he does have a few attributes ! 
Grave Digger posted:Wait so it's plausible this rookie GM is forcing a DC on MM, but you say the veteran GM with a SB couldn't possibly have forced the former DC on MM (which I don't believe either)?
Didn't we just get through how many pages saying how completely inept TT was? I'm sure this is how it played out for Original AG as he was picking out drapes for the FO.
Considering TT gave AG the one year contract extension, yeah, I think Wile E. McCarthy is under the microscope.
I didn't say TT was inept, I think he failed at player acquisition in several areas, but succeeded in many others. I'm not sh*tting on people just because they've recently failed, TT's overall body of work speaks for itself.
JMHO:
Mike was told to fire Dom by Murphy.
Moss became a bargaining chip to retain gainful employment regardless of who was hired as DC.
Pettine agreed to take the job but Moss’ pass has an expiration date after this year.
Moss is salty as **** because of all of it.
Tramon is going to be the best FA stop gap FA signing after Rodgers shreds the chicks in camp and Tramon sits them down and tells them they’ve seen end of days as corners but trial by fire matters. Means something coming from Tramon and not Rollins.
Gute gave Mike more than he expected on offense with FA acquisitions to remove excuses while spending wisely for that talent.
Net result:
Mike has what he wanted and now it’s on him. Defensive players can’t blame Dom. Rodgers has Philbin. Moss has to coach. Pettine has to produce. OL is better than 2017.
Super Bowl or bust.
We'll be using the Winston Moss Stare-ometer to judge Original AG's footing within the organization at any given time.
ChilliJon posted:JMHO:
Mike was told to fire Dom by Murphy.
Moss became a bargaining chip to retain gainful employment regardless of who was hired as DC.
Pettine agreed to take the job but Moss’ pass has an expiration date after this year.
Moss is salty as **** because of all of it.
Tramon is going to be the best FA stop gap FA signing after Rodgers shreds the chicks in camp and Tramon sits them down and tells them they’ve seen end of days as corners but trial by fire matters. Means something coming from Tramon and not Rollins.
Gute gave Mike more than he expected on offense with FA acquisitions to remove excuses while spending wisely for that talent.
Net result:
Mike has what he wanted and now it’s on him. Defensive players can’t blame Dom. Rodgers has Philbin. Moss has to coach. Pettine has to produce. OL is better than 2017.
Super Bowl or bust.
Agreed.
And to clarify for GD, I don't think Grendel told The Avocado Genius to get rid of Capers but it sure the **** wasn't his decision outside of the fact he decided he wanted to be employed.
Packdog posted:I think McCarthy has a bit of pressure on him this year. Not nuclear inferno pressure, but he needs to produce after having things go his way this off-season. New power structure at 1265 - where's my silo ?, New (preferred ?) GM with less clout than the last one, New OC (Philbin should raise McCarthy's game day IQ), New DC (how could it take this long ?), etc... except for HC that's a clean sweep. Time for results.
After last year where his 3yr QB pupal was an embarrassment, it seemed more evident than ever that Rodgers is carrying this team...and McCarthy. Was Thompson at fault for some of the shortcomings, definitely yes. But McCarthy has some real blemishes on his record while having a generational QB at his disposal....One of the worst failures in Wisconsin Sports history(NFCC loss to Seattle) where he was severely out-coached and went turtle up. Mind numbing use of timeouts, clock management, challenge use, "we do what we do" stubbornness, Capers, etc....heard he was visibly upset when asked by a reporter if any of the training methods are changing due to the occurrence of repetitive injuries - defiant, "not changing anything" , we do what we do. WTF ??
I'm sure the above is seen as being overly critical of a guy that's had McCarthy's success. He is a good coach, but, Again, he's had a generational QB at his disposal and has gone to 1 Super Bowl. Hopefully this off-seasons changes will help negate some of McCarthy's shortcomings, cause he does have a few attributes !
Talking heads on ESPN were debating this today and Stephen Smith, a long time Arod backer, sounds a lot like you.
No one really needed to tell anyone Dom Capers needed to go. Someone did. That’s missing the bigger point.
Dom getting the **** gone presented accountability to a lot of folks that needed a reintroduction to the concept. Players and coaches included.
Mike saying he’s tired of the defense being the teams step child after this season was a horrible look for a guy trying to get in front of a solution he willingly allowed. While watching Hundley get nothing done.
It’s a new world. Mike should make the most of the crazy good opportunity he’s been handed.
So there’s no world where you all think McCarthy told TT “we need a veteran backup, I’m not sold on Hundley...” and TT told him he had work with Hundley? Then he freaks out when Rodgers goes down and overcompensates with his QB ROOM IS FINE tirade. I’m not making excuses, could just as well be McCarthy fukked up sticking with BH, but I think TT was more out of touch with the staff’s requests than we think.
Why would he refuse his HC asking for specific players? Do you honestly believe TT wouldn't go sign a journeyman QB? TT became more active in FA towards the end. In part due to missed draft picks but it wasn't like FA was a complete non starter. Did you ever think it was the coaches over valuing their "development" projects just as much as TT? I do. It was a cooperative cluster **** and that includes MM. He's the last one standing and as CJ said he should relish the opportunity. Winston Moss agrees.
Backup QB problem happened twice. Years apart. “The QB Room is fine” is 100% on Mike.
Maybe it’s a failure to communicate. But it’s absolutely a failure to plan accordingly by a guy that should have been better prepared.
YATittle posted:Packdog posted:...
I'm sure the above is seen as being overly critical of a guy that's had McCarthy's success. He is a good coach, but, Again, he's had a generational QB at his disposal and has gone to 1 Super Bowl. Hopefully this off-seasons changes will help negate some of McCarthy's shortcomings, cause he does have a few attributes !
Talking heads on ESPN were debating this today and Stephen Smith, a long time Arod backer, sounds a lot like you.
A generational QB is just not an assurance of making it to the Super Bowl, much less winning it. HOFers Marino and Lamonica made it to only one Superb Owl each and lost; a notable non-HOFer who did the same was Ken Anderson. Guys who made it to only one and won included HOFers: Namath, Stabler, Steve Young, and Johnny U. Another notable not in the HOF who went to one and won was Doug Williams.
I would have thought that at least Marino, Stabler, and Young would have appeared in more SBs than just one, given their talent level. (Maybe Johnny U. as well, but he was already 33 in 1966.)
Heck, John Madden (HOF), John Gruden, Sean Payton, Tony Dungy only coached in one SB each. Interestingly enough, they all won. That puts MM in some pretty good company.
Do we want more? Of course, we do. We're fans, and we're never satisfied. 
Henry posted:Why would he refuse his HC asking for specific players? Do you honestly believe TT wouldn't go sign a journeyman QB? TT became more active in FA towards the end. In part due to missed draft picks but it wasn't like FA was a complete non starter. Did you ever think it was the coaches over valuing their "development" projects just as much as TT? I do. It was a cooperative cluster **** and that includes MM. He's the last one standing and as CJ said he should relish the opportunity. Winston Moss agrees.
I honestly believe it’s getting easier to get you riled up!
Stabler and Madden would cite immaculate reception. And the Steelers in general. So would Bum Phillips. Competition does matter. Ask Steve Young.
Rodgers is good enough to have more than one SB. Rodgers just couldn’t drag Capers lifeless corpse across the finish line first more than once thus far.
Madden retired at 42. He keeps coaching and MM isn't in the same zip code. Gruden won on Dungy's build in Tampa and Dungy won by building defenses. Dungy built a solid defense to go a long with Manning. Sean Payton is comparable.
Young, he really had about 5 year window until he ran into the buzzsaw of the 90's Packers. In 5 years he racked up MVPs and Super Bowl. That's pretty impressive in that time frame. Marino? That's fair. Guys like Stabler and Johnny U, they got the piss beat out of them. 1 Super Bowl is impressive.
With the passing rules as they are and the talent Rodgers himself has there's a fair argument to be made. There are some things Rodgers has done that I have never seen in this game. Absurd things. He isn't just great, he's absurd.
I'm not going to say the Packers should be waltzing in every year like some other team with not as good a QB but the criticisms are more than fair.
Grave Digger posted:Henry posted:Why would he refuse his HC asking for specific players? Do you honestly believe TT wouldn't go sign a journeyman QB? TT became more active in FA towards the end. In part due to missed draft picks but it wasn't like FA was a complete non starter. Did you ever think it was the coaches over valuing their "development" projects just as much as TT? I do. It was a cooperative cluster **** and that includes MM. He's the last one standing and as CJ said he should relish the opportunity. Winston Moss agrees.
I honestly believe it’s getting easier to get you riled up!
You don't get to play that card. Who doesn't love a good sparring match to get the spicy humor rolling?
Besides, I broke my other chew toy.
Henry posted:Grave Digger posted:Henry posted:Why would he refuse his HC asking for specific players? Do you honestly believe TT wouldn't go sign a journeyman QB? TT became more active in FA towards the end. In part due to missed draft picks but it wasn't like FA was a complete non starter. Did you ever think it was the coaches over valuing their "development" projects just as much as TT? I do. It was a cooperative cluster **** and that includes MM. He's the last one standing and as CJ said he should relish the opportunity. Winston Moss agrees.
I honestly believe it’s getting easier to get you riled up!
You don't get to play that card. Who doesn't love a good sparring match to get the spicy humor rolling?
Besides, I broke my other chew toy.
This chew toy?
I don’t agree that McCarthy’s legacy is somehow set. His mistake was keeping Capers, sure- undeniable. But he also is adressing that mistake. If the Packers flounder now, the franchise is in serious trouble. I think Rodgers wants to see the results before he goes long term. There’s a lot of serious uncertainty in Green Bay right now.
And if they succeed, and I believe they will, McCarthy will be why. I think he knows it. Rodgers knows it. The whole organization knows it. This is his show, and it’s all banking on a “prove it” year.
If you succeed in that scenario, you deserve to be considered one of the greats.
I've been a MM hater for a while. What makes me think that it's time to move on is that he wasn't able to rally the team against adversity this season. He has a ton of flaws, poor game mgt, stubborn beyond comprehension, loyal to a fault, stale offensive philosophy and so on. But what he did well was get the scrubs to play with all they had when their backs were against the walls.
That did not happen last year. The team knew #12 would be there in the end, all they had to do was will their way to a W here or there. They did that countless times throughout his tenure, but not last year.
Will see if adding Mr Clean and turning over the roster is enough to make the message fresh again. I have a lot of doubt.
When your star QB goes down, your defense has to step up big-time and pull off a couple of wins by shutting down the other team. If you played on last year's team, BD, would you rally around the defense that Capers installed and called the past couple of years? It would have been hard to be motivated as an offensive player to know your D will cave; it would have been hard to believe in your DC if you were a D player. The team was cooked with Capers, just like a chicken.
With Rodgers you always stand a chance to win; with Hundley (in essence, an untested-one-step-above-a-rookie QB that MM had too much faith in), it rested on the D to grab a win or two and Capers couldn't get it done.
This year, with Pettine and Philbin, if MM doesn't get it done in convincing fashion, then he's not up to the job and needs to go. Some other team will hire him within 24 hours, and they will get an excellent coach as I think MM learns from mistakes in retrospect, even if his loyalty button sticks too often.
BrainDed posted:
Will see if adding Mr Clean and turning over the roster is enough to make the message fresh again. I have a lot of doubt.
I have very little doubt that turning over the roster and bringing in a DC will make the message fresh again. I would bet that if the D can stay healthy we are going to be very happy with how much progression the defense makes.
I agree with many posters here that this year is definately a prove it year for MM but I am not in the he has to go camp just yet. So a question for those who want him gone is who do you want as a replacement?
Too many rooks and unproven players in critical spots to expect a SB this year. But we do need to see improvement on D. Much improvement by Dec.
It is true that a great QB doesn't guarantee SB's, not even one like AR because it is generally very difficult to get to and win them. But the problem hasn't been that we've missed out on more SB's because of flukes and simply being beaten by a hotter, better team. It's more often been due to failures on D. There have been other factors like ST gaffes, running out of WR's, running out of OL, etc. that have contributed. Those are things are nearly impossible to fix or avoid. It happens to every team. But it's been the yearly D collapse that from the outside looks like something that should have been fixed years ago but just kept chugging along.
Music City posted:I don’t agree that McCarthy’s legacy is somehow set. His mistake was keeping Capers, sure- undeniable. But he also is adressing that mistake. If the Packers flounder now, the franchise is in serious trouble. I think Rodgers wants to see the results before he goes long term. There’s a lot of serious uncertainty in Green Bay right now.
And if they succeed, and I believe they will, McCarthy will be why. I think he knows it. Rodgers knows it. The whole organization knows it. This is his show, and it’s all banking on a “prove it” year.
If you succeed in that scenario, you deserve to be considered one of the greats.
It was his show last year. The only difference, no Rodgers. So if you're talking about Rodgers as one of the greats, we already know that. If you think MM is "addressing" the DC position like is was some sage move, you're as delusional as GD.
McCarthy was given a damn gift as far as the upcoming season is concerned. Great OC, try not to **** up everything else.