Finley - Good Riddens - or franchise

quote:

Originally posted by Grave Digger:
The celebrations don't bug me, I'm actually excited when he does it because it means he caught a pass. If guys are producing, they can dance all they want (provided they don't get flagged).

That's missing the point. After the first celebration Fandame mentioned, you just knew he was going to drop the next pass. Sure enough, he did. He's all distracted and living on the glory and not thinking seriously about what needs to get done.

That's the problem. Lack of concentration caused by immaturity. He just needs to grow up and he will.

I don't see the correlation between him dancing after a catch and then dropping another. It's just as likely he drops a catch and than catches the next one or drops both or catches both. He's a 24 year old millionaire who only spent 2.5 years at college (and probably didn't get a thing out of it), he's going to be brash and immature...that's almost to be expected. I don't think immaturity is at the root of his lack of concentration though, I think he just has the yips. I don't know if it's injury related or contract related, but I don't think it's immaturity. I think he's worried about that Safety or LB blasting him right after the catch and him getting hurt effectively killing any hopes of a big contract. I understand why that would be distracting, if he gets hurt again then his chances at getting a big contract are dead. That's a lot for a 24 year old who just started a family. And maybe it's not about the money, maybe he's just worried about getting hurt again. I don't know, but it's going to be a tough decision for Thompson. If he's scared of getting hit and hurt then I don't think he will ever be the same. It's hard to want to throw good money, even the franchise tag, at a guy who may have alligator arms the rest of his career.

I can't wait to see Driver and his first down celebrations go away

Digger - I'm on board with the tag going to Wells IF you cant tag and trade one of the other two.

Wells has been the best OL this year. We play DET twice a year and interior linemen are going to be critical to winning our division. On top of that, OL should be your top priority when you have a guy like Rodgers as your franchise player.

As far as J-Mouth is concerned. He is not a top 15 TE. In his entire career he has had 4 really good games and boat load of bad games. On top of this, his personality does not fit well with the team or coach. If he gets "Jones'd" in free agency and comes crawling back, I wouldn't be opposed to signing him to a short term deal. Thats it though, and I think TT will handle it this way..

quote:

Originally posted by BrainDed:
his personality does not fit well with the team or coach.

exactly, and they showed him repeatedly by keeping him off the field and not throwing him the ball

Pretty ridiculous response to a common and easily supported argument. Try again.

quote:

I also think it would help Finley an awful lot to quit with the sophomoric "fin" thing he does after getting any sort of decent reception.

If he'd make fin gestures with his hands instead of on his head it would make complete sense.

Fins'ley.

let's agree to give him a new contract if he agrees to legally change his name to Catchley. Everyone wins.

quote:

Originally posted by Paperboy-Ka-Bong:
I can't wait to see Driver and his first down celebrations go away

Even DD pretty much stopped the "shoulder shiver" this year. Now he just points. I can live with that. I can't live with dancing down the field, which also takes time.

quote:

Originally posted by ChilliJon:
let's agree to give him a new contract if he agrees to legally change his name to Catchley. Everyone wins.

I like it.

quote:

Originally posted by BrainDed:
Pretty ridiculous response to a common and easily supported argument. Try again.

then support it. The internet is full of moronic arguments, being common doesn't make it right. If it is easily supported that Fin doesn't fit with the team or coach, support it. I know that other players who did not fit the coach and team were cut from the team, Finley was not. I would also assume a "non fit" would struggle to see the field, not be targeted the third most times on the team. Perhaps his fit doesn't match his cost and he plays elsewhere next year, but I'll have to speculate in the meantime and wait and see to be certain.

I support the angst over Finley talking to much and dropping balls, most of the rest of it is common and unsupportable arguments.

So you agree that he talks to much, as you said above, but don't disagree that his personality doesn't fit?

Seems hypocritical or am I missing your point?

The talking and selfish comments is what I was referring to when I say personality is not a fit. Immaturity, whatever you want to call it, it is part of his personality and it doesn't jive with the rest of the team. There are plenty of other 24 year olds in the NFL with talent who don't partake in that nonsense, so its not as simple as age.

As far as supporting it, I'm not going to take the time to find links to stories that have been discussed here repeatedly for his 3 year tenure.

I think the main problem with the 'fin' is we did not see enough of them

I personally don't like the 1rst down celebrations but one of my all time favorite Packers is known for a shimmy and gleaming smile.... so.... I can't get too upset about it.

But other than throw twitter tantrums, what has Finley done? He seems like a pretty nice guy to me off the field, but I dont follow the players like celebrities.

Like I said, at 24 with his talent, which is proven, I think he just had a bad year. Driver retiring, Jennings a FA in 2012, I would try and secure the big man. Also have no idea what MM really thinks of him. How would we know. Probably finds his antics annoying, but may love him like a son at the same time.

quote:

Originally posted by Pikes Peak:
I think the main problem with the 'fin' is we did not see enough of them

lol this was the real problem.

Oh yes, I guess I made an error above. Driver is not retiring, but moving on. Godspeed, DD

The only thing that bothers me about Finley is his inconsistency. There's absolutely no evidence that he's a disruptive force in the locker room. Everything I've read indicates he works hard, cares about the game and is a good teammate.

quote:

Originally posted by BrainDed:
So you agree that he talks to much, as you said above, but don't disagree that his personality doesn't fit?

Seems hypocritical or am I missing your point?

I'd rather he not be such an available sound bite (or the self aggrandizing on the field). Not sure how that would be hypocritical. I also don't see how that is immediately and reasonably translated into "his personality does not fit well with the team or coach." Clearly you are comfortable perpetuating fabrication that he is a bad teammate and not liked by the coaching staff. Again, I can't imagine a "not fit" being such a large part of the weekly game plan (i.e. if he wasn't a fit, he wouldn't be targeted so much). I've never heard he wasn't liked by teammates or ostrasized or difficult to be around, but you feel, because it "has been discussed" that it must be true (despite being unwilling to validate your position with evidence). That is pretty weaksauce IMO. Show me something from a coach or player which give that kind of indication and I'll agree with you.

quote:

I can't imagine a "not fit" being such a large part of the weekly game plan

HAHAHAHAH

T. Owens never fit in with his teammates, and every coach he ever played for still put him on the field and in the game plan.. That's a lousy rebuttal.

.. and I am not fabricating anything. If you want to ignore the articles where the beat writers have said MM has had to call Finley up the office, where Rodgers has called him out, where he talks trash on Rodgers as a rookie or the superbowl picture belly aching... fine... But how about his temper tantrums on the field directed toward the leader of the team the past couple weeks? Do you see any other player doing that?

If the guy was on any other team 99% of you would tear into him.

I really don't want to ignore them. Post them here and I will examine them closely

And because TO saw the field, we can assume being a "bad fit" isn't a reason to pull a guy? In fact, "bad fits" regularly get targeted? You may need to examine TO's career a little more.

google.com


For your convenience.

weaksauce

No comment on Owens or the temper tantrums?

weakersauce.

J-Mouth talking trash on Rodgers... Philbin and MM respond..
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/bl...ideri?urn=nfl-120138

Sits out practice... MM miffed
http://www.jsonline.com/sports...3jmlp-136356983.html

Bitching about getting the ball early in the year.
http://www.totalpackers.com/20...ot-getting-the-ball/

"Shaming" TT and MM on twitter the week before the Super Bowl.. Solid team first move.
"We got hurt playing for the team. Its not like we got injury bs'in around…And its a team rule! Shame.”

"I'm never going to tackle" tweet after his injury.. Nice TEAM rally cry..
I didn't find a link because he deleted it from his twitter account, but I'm sure there is a thread here with the exact quote. I think I recall some of the apologists blaming the tweet on pain killers...LOL.

I could go on and fill an entire page.. but thats all the sauce you get for now. You just don't see articles like this written or tweets of that nature from 99% of the other players.

At the risk of sticking my neck where it doesn't belong, this isn't about Owens or his temper tantrums. That's beyond strawman territory what you just did there.

I will say this...Finley does talk more than most players on this team. He's the most demonstrative player on offense. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a non fit with the team. In my circle of friends, there are some more reserved folks, and some real gregarious people, yet we all get along pretty well. I fail to see how different personalities absolutely equates to locker room strife.

quote:

At the risk of sticking my neck where it doesn't belong, this isn't about Owens or his temper tantrums. That's beyond strawman territory what you just did there.

The reason I brought Ownens in as a comparison was because PB's reasoning for thinking the coaches didn't have a problem with is personality was that he got put into the game plan.. I disagree and cited Owens as an extreme example to prove most coaches will put a guy with personality issues into the game plan.

The tantrums have nothing to do with a comparison... I just cited them as evidence that his personality is a issue..

quote:

I fail to see how different personalities absolutely equates to locker room strife.

Different is fine... demonstrative or abrasive can lead to problems... See my post above..

I'm glad you were able to find some evidence to back up your statement. Much less weaksauce.

Anywho...

Your first link is to his rookie year. I guess you can speak to its relevance, but really, you are bolstering your position with a quote from his rookie year? Rodgers was a dumbass as a rookie too, he admits it. Rookies are (common knowledge) stupid.

Your second link. Better evidence. From that article, it does seem like Mike was miffed Fin pulled himself from practice. This may actually be legitimate. Sounds like Fin failed to communicate with the staff what was going on and made his own decision.

Third link.

“Double-teams,” Finley said, shaking his head. “That’s something that we have to go back and look at and create ways to get (me) the ball, somehow.”

DAMN HIM FOR WANTING THE BALL.

“For sure, they took me out of the game,” Finley told Demovsky. “I don’t know what I came out with, but hopefully we can go back and dial something up for the double teams. We’ve got to have something for it.

“We’ll have to go back, not being selfish or nothing, but go back and dial up something so you can get your playmaker the ball in games like that when it’s close.”

yeah, pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty damning stuff. I can see why his teammates don't like him.

My only problem with a quote like that is he needs to catch the damn ball.

From the source of that quote...

"Their main focus you could tell was stopping Jermichael. Every time he was split out, they made sure they had a guy high and a guy low,” quarterback Aaron Rodgers said. “They were (even) dropping down a defensive end on that side to stop him. (But) then Jordy and James and Greg and and Donald had touchdowns. Those guys got it going, and J-Fin had more of a quiet day."

So, having a guy like Fin on the team opened up one on one coverage for the wide receivers. Seems like a good thing, even if Jermarcus wanted the ball more.

Jermichael is young and brash, and immensely talented. He had a year below expectations (lets not pretend he had a "bad" year) and still had consistent impact on the offense. Mike's tone about the skipping practice is a concern, but there doesn't seem to be a pattern to that behavior, and we've heard Mike be stern about other players as well. Not good, but if that is the best you've got....

Since you brought a blog (opinion piece) into play, here is another link.

Despite his ego, Finley is worth the risk. Yes, it gets old, but Finley does not isolate his teammates like Terrel Owens or Santonio Holmes. Finley is with a great group of players that are mature, and the longer he stays with this group, the more he will become like them. He'll learn.

As I've said a few times, he needs to mature and catch the ball. But I don't think he teammates don't like him and I think the coaching staff would rather game plan with him than against him.

anyone find the Driver interview where he talks about making faces when the ball isn't thrown his way. He explains it like the consummate vet he is, but essentially he said he felt the ball should always be thrown his way.

Sounded like a football player to me.

quote:

? Rodgers was a dumbass as a rookie too, he admits it. Rookies are (common knowledge) stupid.

Talk about weaksauce... Provide me links of rookies who ran their mouth like that to their QB and then turned into good teammates.. You might find 1, but I am sure I could find more that don't lose the personality.

As far as the double team quote... You dont hear the other guys saying a peep when it wasn't there day to get targeted.

No comments on T. Owens and the game plan rebuttal yet?

No comment on the selfish tweets pertaining to tackling and shame on the TT and MM?

quote:

He had a year below expectations (lets not pretend he had a "bad" year) and still had consistent impact on the offense.

I'm not saying he isn't a talented player or has an impact on they defend the other guys.. Maybe he had a down year production wise because he was coming off the injury.. We know he left a lot of yards on the field with his completion per target percentage.. But... that was Jordy last year and he came back in a big way.

So all things considered.. I go back to my original stance... 1 - If you can tag and trade, great. 2 - If not, let him test the market and hope he gets the JJ treatment.

quote:

Originally posted by BrainDed:

quote:

I can't imagine a "not fit" being such a large part of the weekly game plan

HAHAHAHAH

T. Owens never fit in with his teammates, and every coach he ever played for still put him on the field and in the game plan.. That's a lousy rebuttal.

I don't know. San Francisco sent him packing when his antics became too much to handle. After one productive season, Philly suspended him for conduct detrimental to the team. Dallas seemed to work out ok when Bill Parcells was in charge (despite rumors he wanted nothing to do with T.O.)...and then was sent packing when Wade Phillips took over. Basically, all these teams stopped targeting him when he became more headache then his on the field production was worth.

What I'm trying to say here, is that if Finley really was this "not fit" that you allege, I think he would have been released a long time ago. Kind of like when TT sent Ahmad Carroll and Joey Thomas packing, despite the salary cap hit he suffered for doing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Fond Du Arrigo: Kind of like when TT sent Ahmad Carroll and Joey Thomas packing, despite the salary cap hit he suffered for doing it.

I'm not sure Finley needs to be lumped in with two stiffs.

just for historical accuracy:

joey thomas got sent to the curb after allowing a minny WR OOB with no timeouts left that led to longwell kicking the GW FG. Sherman was still in charge.

Oops. I thought TT let them both go together.

quote:

Originally posted by chickenboy:

I'm not sure Finley needs to be lumped in with two stiffs.

My point was that if a guy is a locker room cancer, he doesn't stick around very long in Green Bay under TT. Carroll was released in the middle of his, what was it, 2nd season (?) with a 1st round contract that was accelerated onto the salary cap. Justin Harrell, another stiff, stuck around a lot longer. The main difference being that he wasn't a complete waste of a human being.

Still. Turds don't last in GB. Jolly seems to be the only exception, but he was basically loved in the locker room by the players. He was hardly a cancer to what the team was trying to do. Primadonnas get sent packing if they even get to GB in the first place now. I don't know if Finley is that or not, and I think Ted wants the rest of the league to be just as uncertain about that aspect of him. That and his drops on film could bring the guy back for one of those one-year-type prove-it deals. At least that's my hope. He is a threat, but he stunk it up this year when you compare his tallant to his results.

Here is a fairly recent article from May of 2010 talking about Finley's past and his commitment to the future, both at home and on the field

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/93864379.html

.

Once Terrell Owens became TO he started to move from team to team and when he wore out his welcome his stats dropped. He called his QB gay.

Not seeing the parallel to Fin wanting the ball thrown to him more.

I said I didn't like how accessible he made himself or his thoughts. That doesn't make him a bad teammate.

As for your rookie quote. IT WAS A ROOKIE QUOTE. If you don't believe rookies say disproportionately dummer things than vets, then we'll just have to leave it at that.

Relationship with Rodgers now

Rodgers motivates tight end Jermichael Finley by asking him to do everything the right way instead of just relying on his elite talent.

"He did jump me a couple of times, but nothing too brutal. Nothing I can't handle," Finley said. "Like if you didn't get your depth on running a route, he'll jump you for that.

"He's the quarterback, and if you want to get the ball, you've got to do it right."

That was said this past year (not his rookie year). It is possible that even Fin can mature a little.

As for your last caveat- I don't disagree. Never did disagree. Not was the point I was ever contesting. I simply feel your statement that he is a poor fit to this team and coach is more grounded in mythology than reality. When pressed, you came up with one instance where the coach wasn't happy with his taking an off day. In my opinion, a guy who other teams gameplan around defending is probably a good fit. A guy our QB targets the third most on the team is probably a good fit. I can live without the self aggrandizing, but I'm confident we have a different type of teammate than TO or Randy Moss (common and easily supported).

I've said it before, but I don't know why Packerfans feel the need to make this more than it actually is. It is popular with some fans to create more out of the situation that it really is. A quote from his rookie year and a blog from guys who also don't like Finley? Where are the quotes from teammates that say anything other than positives?

quote:

Originally posted by Paperboy-Ka-Bong:

I've said it before, but I don't know why Packerfans feel the need to make this more than it actually is. It is popular with some fans to create more out of the situation than it really is.

You know why....Fans and their brains are hardwired to look for patterns and then apply them in new areas. That's partially why we see TO and Moss brought up in this context and its also why some of the mensa's around here equate Neal with Harrell

Its much easier to simply apply the pattern and affix the label than it is to take a critical look at the actual facts of each case on its own

I hope we keep Finley; and if he and his agent are smart about it, they'll take a 3-4 year deal, win more Titles and be able to take another bite of the apple while he is still in his prime

quote:

Originally posted by Paperboy-Ka-Bong: It is popular with some fans to create more out of the situation that it really is.

Or less as in Capers has been "saving schemes" and gonna "flip the switch" at some point. Sometimes fans are right about situations and sometimes obvious issues that "will be fixed" won't be. I guess that makes both sides fans.

so we've gotten to the point where CB is justifying stupidity.

I guess we've effectively reached the end of the internet