I'll Admit It: These Days, I'm a Favre Fan First

quote:

Originally posted by GBFanForLife:

My comments are only because people are acting as if it was the simplest catch in the world and like it was some major turning point in the game. Favre missed on more passes than were dropped and also made some piss poor decisions and even got lucky that the Giants fumbled the ball back on the one interception.

In other words, the one mistake Favre made in regulation was of no consequence. The biggest problem with Favre yesterday wasn't his decision making. It was his downfield accuracy.

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Originally posted by lukey:

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Originally posted by GBFanForLife:

My comments are only because people are acting as if it was the simplest catch in the world and like it was some major turning point in the game. Favre missed on more passes than were dropped and also made some piss poor decisions and even got lucky that the Giants fumbled the ball back on the one interception.

In other words, the one mistake Favre made in regulation was of no consequence. The biggest problem with Favre yesterday wasn't his decision making. It was his downfield accuracy.

....and I believe it is the cold that really affected him in this game(and the game in Chicago).

We rushed for 28 frickin yards...Favre didn't play that well but Tom Beauty Boy Brady also threw three picks at home in decent weather. The difference is he had a running game he could lean on. This game was a team failure. I don't think there is any QB who is going to carry a team in that weather with 28 frickin' rushing yards.

Rushing yardage in Championship games:

149 yards - New England
134 yards - New York
104 yards - San Diego
28 yards - Green Bay

I will love the Packers when Favre is gone but it will be tough to seem him go. He brought the franchise back from the grave.

Hey, single players don't mean a thing...just ask Chicago Bulls fans how much fun it is to watch Joakim Noah instead of Michael Jordan.

quote:

Originally posted by The Crusher:
We rushed for 28 frickin yards...Favre didn't play that well but Tom Beauty Boy Brady also threw three picks at home in decent weather. The difference is he had a running game he could lean on. This game was a team failure. I don't think there is any QB who is going to carry a team in that weather with 28 frickin' rushing yards.

Rushing yardage in Championship games:

149 yards - New England
134 yards - New York
104 yards - San Diego
28 yards - Green Bay

I will love the Packers when Favre is gone but it will be tough to seem him go. He brought the franchise back from the grave.

Hey, single players don't mean a thing...just ask Chicago Bulls fans how much fun it is to watch Joakim Noah instead of Michael Jordan.

McCarthy's gameplan was to throw the ball.

I am a Rob Davis fan.

Dude deserves a ring.

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McCarthy's gameplan was to throw the ball.

and Belicheat's wasn't?????

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Originally posted by The Crusher:

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McCarthy's gameplan was to throw the ball.

and Belicheat's wasn't?????

Do you even watch football?

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Do you even watch football?

OK, want to play football trivia tough guy?

Listen, of course you can have a game plan to "throw" but you still need balance. MM even admitted he "probably abandoned the run too early"

Passing attempts/ Rushing attempts

New York 43/39
New England 35/31
San Diego 38/22
Green Bay 35/14

It's no coincidence the teams with the larger disparity lost.

quote:

Originally posted by The Crusher:

quote:

Do you even watch football?

OK, want to play football trivia tough guy?

Listen, of course you can have a game plan to "throw" but you still need balance. MM even admitted he "probably abandoned the run too early"

Passing attempts/ Rushing attempts

New York 43/39
New England 35/31
San Diego 38/22
Green Bay 35/14

It's no coincidence the teams with the larger disparity lost.

My God, the Giants had 82 plays! To our 49! How the hell did the game get to OT?

I still cannot bring myself to watch the game. Reading many of the responses here, I know it'll be too painful.

That said, if McCarthy's game-plan was to attack the Giants down field, then shame on him. I told another fellow Packer fan who I work with that Green Bay would win IF Favre played within himself. IOW, don't force him to make the big plays at the beginning of the game.

This is especially true once the running game obviously went into the tank. Let the short passing game BE that running game.

If Joe Average Fan can understand this--can understand that the best way to see Brett Favre have a successful game--especially under such situations--is to get the man into a rhythm, you'd've thought McCarthy and Philbin would've understood this as well, too.

It's just a recipe for disaster to have called the game the way they did.


Now, all that said, to get back on the topic at hand, I've been a Packer fan all my life--literally a little over 48 years. I always believed every single season would be a great one; back in the day, I can remember getting the Packer guide from our local Ford dealership, and I'd devour it.

I always wanted to see the Green & Gold succeed, but it was so hard during the lean years of the 70s/80s.

So I'll always be a Packer fan, first, but I'm a Brett Favre fan almost as equally. Call it 1/1a.

I wanted this season to end in the Super Bowl equally for him and the Packers--mostly because Brett helped to put the Packers in the position of having that chance that I so desperately wanted the Packers to have in the 70s/80s.

quote:

Originally posted by Floridarob:
With that said, thru 40 yrs of watching the Packers, watching them with Brett Favre as QB has brought more joy to my football watching than any other time in my life. He his like my kid. He makes mistakes and I want to ring his neck and when it is all said and done I want to hug him.



I want him to keep it going as long as he can.

This is how I feel right now; I want Brett Favre to have one more chance @ Super Bowl glory because of all he's meant to the Packers ... BUT if it can't be, it can't be.

Because if Brett cannot be the QB to get it done, then I'll be just as ecstatic if they get back because I'm such a diehard Packer fan.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
Actually, I'd become a big fan of MM this season. But he picked a bad time to call his worst game of the season.

I keep coming back to this.

Again--on a night when the elements were so horrid, knowing what you know about your QB--why on earth do you call a game where you attack so much down field?

It's going to be awhile before I can watch this game.


---

Finally, and yes this is long-winded, as much as I wanted this for Favre, I also wanted it for Driver, for Tauscher, for Clifton, for Davis, for Kampman, for KGB.

With the exception of Clifton (drafted #2), these guys basically made themselves into quality players for the Packers. In many respects, they all have over-achieved--even Clifton, coming back from that devastating hit put on him by Sapp.

---

I hope and pray that the way this season ended is a wake-up call to the team. That they search within themselves and channel their disappointment, their hurt--into becoming an even better team in 2008/9.

Over the past several years, it's taken a devastating loss such as this to elevate teams the following year. Several years ago, it was the Steelers. Then it was the Colts. This year, it is the Patriots.

We can only hope that next year it'll be the good guys, the Green & Gold of Green Bay.

quote:

Originally posted by RB87:

quote:

Originally posted by Music City:
Brett Favre has been a lot of things in his career- most of them great- but the one thing he has not been is clutch in the biggest games.

I don't know if that's entirely accurate. Granted, he did have some rough games recently (St. Louis, Atlanta, and Minnesota stand out) where he clearly was trying to do too much.

But he's also shined in some of his biggest games. For example:
*The first playoff game on the road at Detroit, where he finds Sharpe in the final minute to win the game
*The divisional playoff win at San Francisco, where the Packers knocked off the defending champ Niners. He posted a 133 QB rating in that game -- a game that put the Packers on the map and ended the Cowboy / Niner stranglehold
*Two of his four conference championship games (Carolina and at San Fran) where he had a 108 and 98 QB rating respectively
*The two Super Bowls -- he posted a 108 QB ranking in his 1st one and a 91 in his 2nd one

All in all 1/2 of his 22 playoff games have QB ratings over 90. Maybe he lacks the last second comeback of a Montana or Elway, but I don't know if that makes him unclutch.

Being clutch means to me the ability to orchestrate a drive to win a game when it matters the most. The closest he came was the '98 season of the Catch II game, where he drove the Packers down the field and scored with less than 2 minutes left or whatever. They lost that game anyway.

Favre in 1995. Favre in 1997. Favre in 2001. Favre in 2002. Favre in 2003. Favre in 2004. Favre in 2007.

I think people chose to omit a lot of things when they nthink of Favre's greatness. As I said before, there will always be a part of his legacy that will include almost as many monumental failures as triumphs. This is not to say he is undeserving of the mantle of greatness that has been put on him. He has achieved heights that very few QBs will ever approach. It's just that last night was another in a growing list of examples when Brett Favre has failed to produce in the biggest game. It's his nature- he is what he is. As a QB, he stands in the top 5 of the list of all-timers. But as a big game QB, he falls way down that list.

I was a bit disappointed in the thread title and some of the postings. I could never be a fan of a team just because of a particular player. I always liked Emmitt Smith, but there's absolutely no way I was going to become a Cowboys fan!
I can see where our younger fans "see" a different identity of the Packers, but when the dust settles, no one player will ever be greater than the team. IOW, how can one say Brett's history is any more/less meaningful than Bart's? Sure there are players who clearly stand out in a crowd of the very best, but they accomplish what they do because of the team.
It's great that players like Brett can bring new Packers fans, but if they don't take a little time to learn some history, appreciate our struggles, and continue to root for the team-and no other-after Brett retires, then you ain't a fan! Simple as that, IMO.

Ya know, I feel as though my perspective on this is completely 100% different. Being a "young" Cheesehead, I've grown up knowing Brett baby as the *one and only* QB that Pack has ever seen.

It seems to me odd to even imagine a GB team without Brett--through the years faces have come and gone, all but his.

Given all that, I feel as though I was raised a Packers fan for sure. However, I wasn't raised a Favre fan... I'd like to think of it that it came moreso as natural instinct

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:

quote:

Originally posted by PackOly:
I may have mistaken Lukey as one of the Favre bashers. It just seemed he was only coming around after losses lately, much like CoP, only to a lesser extent. It just gets tiring when that happens.

Lukey is in second place to Badgerzfan for the "I wish Favre would molest me" prize. Max is coming up fast though.

Can I get in on that?

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:

quote:

Originally posted by phaedrus:

quote:

Keep yawning half wit.

Stop the personal attacks or get your ass out of this board - for good.

I have no idea why you have the leash you do. You transgress forum policy at a frequency that no one has rivaled.

Blow it out your ass closeted conspiracy priest. You want to play make believe with your life you go right ahead. I have no time for it.

I'm a Henry fan. I think he's smart, a straight shooter, and pretty funny sometimes.

But does anyone else find it at least mildly ironic that the guy with 20K+ message board posts in the last five years is playing the "I don't have time" card?

quote:

Originally posted by Vincent Vega:

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:

quote:

Originally posted by phaedrus:

quote:

Keep yawning half wit.

Stop the personal attacks or get your ass out of this board - for good.

I have no idea why you have the leash you do. You transgress forum policy at a frequency that no one has rivaled.

Blow it out your ass closeted conspiracy priest. You want to play make believe with your life you go right ahead. I have no time for it.

I'm a Henry fan. I think he's smart, a straight shooter, and pretty funny sometimes.

But does anyone else find it at least mildly ironic that the guy with 20K+ message board posts in the last five years is playing the "I don't have time" card?

Let me rephrase it for you. I don't have time for phony politeness. Don't hate me because I bob and weave like Muhammed Ali.

I have 1 Favre jersey which I recieved as a present. I have many many Packer clothing items, none of which say "Green Bay Favres". You decide which one I am more of the fan of.

It's too bad Favre didn't have the stones Cal Ripkin had. I was thinking after the Dallas game Brett should have just went to MM and quietly said, "Have Aaron start Sunday. Let's not make a big deal, don't tell anybody but Aaron, just have him go out for the 1st half." It would have been the perfect time. Suddenly a lot of pressure is off Brett. Who knows what would have happened, Brett could always have started the second half or the next week, depending how Aaron did. We may not have finished 13-3 but the Packers may have been better off in the end. We may have had another option on Sunday.

quote:

Originally posted by Furius:

quote:

Originally posted by The Crusher:

quote:

Do you even watch football?

OK, want to play football trivia tough guy?

Listen, of course you can have a game plan to "throw" but you still need balance. MM even admitted he "probably abandoned the run too early"

Passing attempts/ Rushing attempts

New York 43/39
New England 35/31
San Diego 38/22
Green Bay 35/14

It's no coincidence the teams with the larger disparity lost.

My God, the Giants had 82 plays! To our 49! How the hell did the game get to OT?

Pure luck ... I couldn't believe the Packers were still in the game .. they were dominated.

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:
I have 1 Favre jersey which I recieved as a present. I have many many Packer clothing items, none of which say "Green Bay Favres". You decide which one I am more of the fan of.

It's too bad Favre didn't have the stones Cal Ripkin had. I was thinking after the Dallas game Brett should have just went to MM and quietly said, "Have Aaron start Sunday. Let's not make a big deal, don't tell anybody but Aaron, just have him go out for the 1st half." It would have been the perfect time. Suddenly a lot of pressure is off Brett. Who knows what would have happened, Brett could always have started the second half or the next week, depending how Aaron did. We may not have finished 13-3 but the Packers may have been better off in the end. We may have had another option on Sunday.

unfortunatley arron "the ironman" rodgers hurt his hammy in pratice after the dallas game and was unavailable to start the next week even if they needed him to.

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:
We may have had another option on Sunday.

So...at what point would you have benched Favre for Rodgers? The start of overtime? When we were trailing 6-0? 20-17? I'm curious at what point you think our head coach should have considered replacing the starting quarterback; at what point it would have made sense to you.

quote:

Originally posted by johnnie gray:

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:
I have 1 Favre jersey which I recieved as a present. I have many many Packer clothing items, none of which say "Green Bay Favres". You decide which one I am more of the fan of.

It's too bad Favre didn't have the stones Cal Ripkin had. I was thinking after the Dallas game Brett should have just went to MM and quietly said, "Have Aaron start Sunday. Let's not make a big deal, don't tell anybody but Aaron, just have him go out for the 1st half." It would have been the perfect time. Suddenly a lot of pressure is off Brett. Who knows what would have happened, Brett could always have started the second half or the next week, depending how Aaron did. We may not have finished 13-3 but the Packers may have been better off in the end. We may have had another option on Sunday.

unfortunatley arron "the ironman" rodgers hurt his hammy in pratice after the dallas game and was unavailable to start the next week even if they needed him to.

I know you've got your little hardon for Rodgers but that's untrue. He could've went if they needed him. They didn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:
We may have had another option on Sunday.

So...at what point would you have benched Favre for Rodgers? The start of overtime? When we were trailing 6-0? 20-17? I'm curious at what point you think our head coach should have considered replacing the starting quarterback; at what point it would have made sense to you.

I believe he meant before the game even started.

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Originally posted by Max:

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Originally posted by ammo:
We may have had another option on Sunday.

So...at what point would you have benched Favre for Rodgers? The start of overtime? When we were trailing 6-0? 20-17? I'm curious at what point you think our head coach should have considered replacing the starting quarterback; at what point it would have made sense to you.

I most likely would have had Rodgers warming up right before the 1st half ended. Instead of taking a knee (which I thought was stupid in it self, there always could have been a PI penalty) I would have had Rodgers throw a deep pass to see if he may have been more effective than Brett. Or maybe when Brett should have had the guts to tell MM, " I don't have it coach. I'm not comfortable out there. Let's try Aaron. Maybe he can do a better job."

Brett sure looked uncomfortable out there. You can be just as ineffective from cold as from any other injury. Aaron did the job in Dallass, he may have gotten the job done Sunday too.

ammo - With all due respect, IMO that is a real reach.

Not a reach at all. Who is nearly the same age as Aaron Rodgers? Why it's Eli Manning, who seemed quite effective despite the cold.

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Originally posted by pacfan:
ammo - With all due respect, IMO that is a real reach.

With more due respect, I don't think it is. Seriously, Favre looked so miserably uncomfortable on the field in both this game and the Chicago game. I'm not saying it was the whole issue but if your head isn't in the game it's hard to execute effectively, even if it's a crappy game plan.

If the whole board hadn't figured it out, I'm absolutely pissed MM didn't factor in the weather at all, especially after Chicago.

I am going to pull the curmudgeon farmer card here. I, and I'm sure others here, spent a good deal of time working in weather like that. You get yourself acclimated to it and when you're comfortable you get work done. Practicing indoors all week and not spending any time practicing in the weather is just stupid. It probably took the whole first half just to get used to it. You have 4 quarters, it doesn't do you any damn good taking 2 of them to adjust.

Freezing a couple of balls in practice ain't squat. Does that get you used to getting hit in that cold? Does it get you ready for making catches that you normally could make? No. Favre stuffing hand warmers all over his body in that facemask was too much. Eli is a Mississippi boy and he didn't look that helpless. I'm sorry, the proof is in the pudding and the pudding was smeared all over the camera for 3 hours.

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:
I believe he meant before the game even started.

"Despite Favre's near-perfect game against Seattle last week, as well as his MVP-caliber season, the zero-degree temperatures make me think I should start our green young quarterback out of Cal over him"?

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:
I most likely would have had Rodgers warming up right before the 1st half ended. Instead of taking a knee (which I thought was stupid in it self, there always could have been a PI penalty) I would have had Rodgers throw a deep pass to see if he may have been more effective than Brett. Or maybe when Brett should have had the guts to tell MM, " I don't have it coach. I'm not comfortable out there. Let's try Aaron. Maybe he can do a better job."

Brett sure looked uncomfortable out there. You can be just as ineffective from cold as from any other injury. Aaron did the job in Dallass, he may have gotten the job done Sunday too.

Wow, that's about the craziest thing I've ever heard. "Well, we're ahead 10-6, but the cold is bothering Favre. Screw his season and game against Seattle last week; Rodgers' game against Dallas makes him the right call now."

Favre should have had the "guts" to ask out of the NFC Championship Game? I wish you were kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:
Not a reach at all. Who is nearly the same age as Aaron Rodgers? Why it's Eli Manning, who seemed quite effective despite the cold.

So our head coach should consider age the most important consideration when determining which quarterback to use? "What's the weather today? Zero? I think Rodgers is our guy. Somebody tell Favre to get ready to hold a clipboard."

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Originally posted by Henry:
Freezing a couple of balls in practice ain't squat. Does that get you used to getting hit in that cold? Does it get you ready for making catches that you normally could make? No. Favre stuffing hand warmers all over his body in that facemask was too much. Eli is a Mississippi boy and he didn't look that helpless. I'm sorry, the proof is in the pudding and the pudding was smeared all over the camera for 3 hours.

See, this makes sense, but that doesn't have anything to do with whether Rodgers should have entered the game ahead of Favre.

I'm sure there are plenty of other Green Bay Favre fans that will find another team to root for or they will have less interest in the Packers once Favre retires. You surely aren't alone.

Favre has been a great packer and surely a top 5-7 QB in history. Plus he's always been entertaining to watch. But, he's come up short more often than not as of late in the big games and more importantly the big playoff games.

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Originally posted by TheFavreRules:
I'm sure there are plenty of other Green Bay Favre fans that will find another team to root for or they will have less interest in the Packers once Favre retires. You surely aren't alone.

Who the F said that? I was a diehard Packers fan before Favre and I'll be one after. All I said was that after a loss like Sunday's I feel worse for Favre, because I figured it was his, personally, last chance. He's the only 38-year-old guy out there. (And sure, I also feel bad for veterans like Woodson, Driver, et al.) As for the franchise, I don't feel as bad because they'll have a lot more chances. Not the same thing as abandoning them after Favre retires.

If you are as uncomfortable as Favre looked then yes you should take yourself out of the game. In case you don't know football is not like baseball. The starter can go back in if the relief guy isn't good either. Favre says it's all about the team, prove it.

Wow, I didn't realize how truly clueless this board is.

Favre didn't play great but he didn't play awful. We put 20 points on the board with zero rushing attack. Manning had 3rd and 5, 3rd and 3 because they had a balanced offense. Does anyone realize the pressure that takes off the QB and the entire offense...especially in those conditions? The Giants are an all around better team than Green Bay...better offensive line, better defensive line, their LB's made more plays, their WR's made more plays...our defense couldn't stop them all day.

Favre is still a better QB than Aaron Rodgers, that is why he is our starter and most likely will be our starter in 08'.

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Originally posted by Henry:
Seriously, Favre looked so miserably uncomfortable on the field in both this game and the Chicago game. I'm not saying it was the whole issue but if your head isn't in the game it's hard to execute effectively, even if it's a crappy game plan.

I'd buy the Favre didn't like the cold if he looked like crap the whole game, but he didn't. He had some good throws and some bad throws. Did the cold effect him? Probably. My joints work slowly in the cold and I expect his do as well.

I'm with you on the game-plan... The INT in OT is as much on McCarthy as it is Favre IMO. Driver was open and he was the primary read - but that is the problem. Those types of throws are tough in good conditions and to have any QB throw those after being out there for 3+ hours was the wrong call.


ammo - were you suggesting that the Packers try Rodgers for one throw before the half, or to have him come in for the 2nd half?

We'll never see Favre tell McCarthy (or any coach) that he does not have it and he should be benched. Just not gonna happen.

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Originally posted by Henry:...Freezing a couple of balls in practice ain't squat. Does that get you used to getting hit in that cold? Does it get you ready for making catches that you normally could make? No. Favre stuffing hand warmers all over his body in that facemask was too much. Eli is a Mississippi boy and he didn't look that helpless. I'm sorry, the proof is in the pudding and the pudding was smeared all over the camera for 3 hours.

You just practice in cold weather (BTW - how cold was it out east early in the week?) for a week and you're a cold weather freakin team? That's just an excuse, not a reason. The Giants outplayed and out coached the Packers. Why didn't Favre cave in in the Seattle game. It was snowing and nasty. Why didn't they let him go in and sit by the fire, the nasty weather wuss?

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Originally posted by Hungry5:
We'll never see Favre tell McCarthy (or any coach) that he does not have it and he should be benched.

Will we ever see any NFL quarterback tell any NFL coach that he does not have it and should be benched? In 80-plus years of professional football has it ever happened? My guess is no. Because it would be viewed as cowardly and stupid, and for every person like ammo who apparently would applaud such a thing as gutsy, there are probably a million others who would say the exact opposite. But hey, everyone is welcome to their opinion.

From my days past as farming I know what it means to work in the cold for several hours at a time. So what I'm saying is this: I would have had Rodgers throw a deep pass right before the half to see if he could have been more effective in those conditions. I know 1 pass does not make a game. I also know when you are properly warm you work more effective. Maybe Brett should have stayed in the lockeroom longer at the half and gotten properly warmed up. Rodgers could have played for a while and if he was ineffective too Brett could have gone back in and may have played well being he was more comfortable, at least for a while.

I guess you didn't watch the game only 3 hours earlier where the best running back in the NFL took himself out of the game because he was ineffective. Never in 80 years....ha ha ha only 3 hours before.

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:...So what I'm saying is this: I would have had Rodgers throw a deep pass right before the half to see if he could have been more effective in those conditions. I know 1 pass does not make a game. I also know when you are properly warm you work more effective...

Rodgers, who has not played should come in off the bench "cold" and wing one to determine if he could be more effective and comfortable than Favre?

Read my 1st post on this page.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:
Not a reach at all. Who is nearly the same age as Aaron Rodgers? Why it's Eli Manning, who seemed quite effective despite the cold.

So our head coach should consider age the most important consideration when determining which quarterback to use? "What's the weather today? Zero? I think Rodgers is our guy. Somebody tell Favre to get ready to hold a clipboard."

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:
Freezing a couple of balls in practice ain't squat. Does that get you used to getting hit in that cold? Does it get you ready for making catches that you normally could make? No. Favre stuffing hand warmers all over his body in that facemask was too much. Eli is a Mississippi boy and he didn't look that helpless. I'm sorry, the proof is in the pudding and the pudding was smeared all over the camera for 3 hours.

See, this makes sense, but that doesn't have anything to do with whether Rodgers should have entered the game ahead of Favre.

Personally, I don't care about if Rodgers started or not. It was a failure as a whole. I can't say Rodgers would've been better equipped but if watching Orton and Eli was any indicator as to what youth offers to the game in those situations ammo's point isn't without merit.

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:
I guess you didn't watch the game only 3 hours earlier where the best running back in the NFL took himself out of the game because he was ineffective. Never in 80 years....ha ha ha only 3 hours before.

Saw the game. It was a coach's decision because he had an INJURY. Sprained MCL. Few, incidentally, thought Tomlinson was "gutsy": In fact, people are ripping him for “lack of toughness,” his “negative impact,” his “childlike demeanor,” his being a “spoiled brat” and his having “no heart.”

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/sullivan/20080122-9999-1s22sullivan.html

As for Favre, in the three series prior to the half Favre had thrown the TD to Driver and then had a perfect throw clang off Martin's hands that at worst would have set them up for another TD opportunity. Then they kicked a field goal, putting us up 10-6. I still don't get you thinking he should have pulled himself for ineffectiveness at that point, or that putting Rodgers in would have made a lick of sense. I guess Grant should have taken himself out too. And Al Harris.