Is this the turning point?

Pack-Man posted:

McCarthy would immediately get another job if the Packers fired him, but it would be with a team like the Browns or Jets. He'd be fired in 2 or 3 years, and it would be the last NFL head coaching job he would ever get.

Only if he panicked and took the Browns job without having a QB. I think he'd be more like Andy Reid and hold out for a job where he'd have a much higher likelihood of success. The Bears come to mind as an obvious landing spot once John Fox is done cashing his paychecks.

ilcuqui posted:

Pack-Man posted:

Mike McCarthy sucks at recognizing QB talent and developing it. He is the nitwit who watched and nurtured Brett Hundley for 3 years and thought he was an NFL quarterback. That "QB guru" garbage we always hear in the media is a BS myth that needs to die.

All I know is that he resurrected Rich Gannon's career, retooled Favre, and took Rodgers (who was TERRIBLE his first couple seasons) from potential bust to the best player in the league. 

So I don't agree with you. H5 mentioned earlier in an other thread that Mike's QB school was scuppered by the new CBA a few years ago. I think there is a lot to that.

Rich Gannon couldn't even take the starting job from Elvis Grbac while he was in KC, some "resurrection". He was still a nobody until he went to Oakland.

Ask Gannon what MM did for him. 

I am pleased to see you know more about how good MM is for QBs than a guy like Steve Young who is a straight shooter and also praises MM in that role. And just about every other knowledgeable observer of the league. Mike has a lot of deficiencies as an HC which have gotten worse because of Aaron papering over the team's weaknesses, but let's not reinvent things here. Put more blame on Van Pelt for not developing the kids. Which goes to the points about Mike having a mediocre staff.

ilcuqui posted:

Pack-Man posted:

McCarthy would immediately get another job if the Packers fired him, but it would be with a team like the Browns or Jets. He'd be fired in 2 or 3 years, and it would be the last NFL head coaching job he would ever get.

Billy B loves him some MM. It's far fetched, but if MM was shown the door I could see BB offering to make him the highest paid OC in the league with the mission of developing Brady's successor. He sells it to Kraft by telling him that when Tom retires, BB can either play with the new kid or have MM in the queue to succeed him. Appeal if any to MM is that he gets to QB coach, which he loves, make coin while not being the front man, and learn from the best coach in the league since Vince.

It will never happen though.

What if Kraft asks how MM developed Rodgers successor?  Will Billy burn the tapes?

My point is that if Mike full time works with QBs he is pretty darn good. As HC he spends more time putting out dumpster fires.

He's had as much time to work with Brett Hundley as any other coach in the league has to work with a player. Other teams manage to select and develop backup QBs who don't look like a trash fire under those rules, but somehow, the guru struggles. Every young QB not named Aaron Rodgers he has developed during the past 12 seasons has looked like trash. It's almost like he just lucked out and had a talented player fall into his lap....

This team would still be in playoff contention if they had a Jacoby Brissett or Colt McCoy backing up Rodgers, but the guru can't even deliver that much. He was stupid enough to think Brett Hundley was an NFL quarterback.

ilcuqui posted:

Put more blame on Van Pelt for not developing the kids. Which goes to the points about Mike having a mediocre staff.

This is such dumb argument. You don't want to blame Mike because he won a Super Bowl 7 years ago and his offenses continue to be great (at least when a HoF QB is taking the snaps, they suck ass without one of those), so you want to scapegoat the guys he personally hand-picked to help run his team. Why do you imagine all of Mike McCarthy's assistant coaches are so bad? I'll tell you why. No one with any talent wants to work under Mike McCarthy. Guys like Dom Capers stick around because no one better wants the job. If all of Mike's assistants have been trash, what makes you think he is even capable of hiring better coaches?

ilcuqui posted:

Ask Gannon what MM did for him. 

I am pleased to see you know more about how good MM is for QBs than a guy like Steve Young who is a straight shooter and also praises MM in that role. And just about every other knowledgeable observer of the league. Mike has a lot of deficiencies as an HC which have gotten worse because of Aaron papering over the team's weaknesses, but let's not reinvent things here. Put more blame on Van Pelt for not developing the kids. Which goes to the points about Mike having a mediocre staff.

Have you ever listened to the commentators during a game when the Packers are on defense? They gush over how "brilliant" and "knowledgeable" Dom Capers is too, you know. He is also called a "guru" by those dopes. Maybe you haven't noticed. Clearly, Dom Capers is a football genius because Troy Aikman or Chris Spielman gush over how clever some of his blitz packages are.

Sigh.

Go ahead, just keep telling me what I think in addition to bringing your unquestionable analysis to the board. 

Enjoy the rest of the season.

I can't argue much with the other vectors of this thread but "MM not knowing Hundley isn't an NFL QB" can come down to the fact Hundley had rarely seen real game action before MIN.  Someone pointed this out before; easy to make reads, step up in the pocket and matriculate through your progressions when you're wearing a red vest in practice.  Even though it's not the whole picture, what else can you grade your backup QB on when he hasn't been in the fire?  His scouting report had some red flags but so did AR's.  He may not have exhibited any of his real game shortcomings while practicing.  Especially if practicing vs. Dom or better yet, Dom's scout team simulating BAL's D.

Meathead McYinzer still thinks Brett Hundley is the right guy for the job. I don't want Callahan though (at least not until they're out of mathematically eliminated from contention), I actually believe the Guru completely when he says Callahan isn't fit to play over Hundley. I have no trouble believing he has a QB even worse than Hundley on this roster.

There comes a time to move on, I thought it was after the Seattle debacle.

Bring in Nick Saban, he will only come to a team with a star QB if he comes back at all. He is ready to win in the NFL now.

I can’t agree with the point that coaches with talent don’t want to work under MM. A good OC is going to hitch their wagon to Aaron Rodgers immediately if given an opportunity. That’s because QBs like Aaron Rodgers are the single fastest route for a good coordinator to a head coaching position elsewhere. Ask Philbin and McAdoo. It’s concerning that Bennett’s name never comes up when “possible HC” discussions come up. A good DC would eye GB simply because it’s a pretty low bar. And again, Aaron Rodgers. 

Now. Regarding the question / point  if MM is capable or wants to hire a better staff? That’s a discussion worth having. 

Most troubling aspect about yesterday is Hundley looked like he regressed from play that wasn’t exactly stellar to begin with. He didn’t need to light up a pretty good pass defense or even win. But he did need to look like he was capable of keeping GB competitive. When Baltimore took the 2nd half KO for 7 to make it 13-0 it was tough to imagine Hundley making a game out it. Turned out he couldn’t. 

Mike hasn't produced any noteworthy assistants who have gone on to do great things with other teams, that is something that we can agree on. I don't know why his assistants are all so bad, honestly. My guess is that no one wants to work under him. Maybe that isn't it, though. Maybe he just sucks at identifying talented assistants. Does it really matter if it's because he just sucks at hiring guys or good guys refuse to work for him? Either way, it's a bad spot to be in. He's just going to keep hiring bad coaches either way.

excalibur posted:

There comes a time to move on, I thought it was after the Seattle debacle.

Bring in Nick Saban, he will only come to a team with a star QB if he comes back at all. He is ready to win in the NFL now.

Saban didn't do too well while he was in the NFL, and the way he left the Dolphins was less than honorable. 

He is also a year older than Billy B.

Saban is well into his 60s, he's getting paid more money than he'll ever need, and he has 100% control over how Alabama's football program is run. Oh yeah, and he's built a legacy as one of the greatest coaches in history there. He isn't leaving Alabama, ever. Stop talking about it.

I think McCarthys best years are behind him, along with Thompsons. Im for change, even if it is for the sake of change. Thompson, has had a good draft since 2011. Adams and Bahk, from my eyes, are the only two offensive starters that could be equally impactful on other teams. On defense, there's so much talent IMO, that the problem has to be coaching. Perry, Clay, Daniels, Clark, Brooks, Martinez, HaHa, King, and Burnett could and IMO probably would be more impactful under better coaching. MM's stubbornness to not move on from Dom makes him more responsible for the defenses failures than Dom himself... along with TT for that matter. 

Id bring Jon Dorsey back, if he'd take us. I'd love to see Josh McDaniels and 12 work together. And I know he's not a popular pick, but Bo pelini at DC. Maybe Macadoo at OC. That's all up to the future HC. I am for change, for the sake of change. 12 has kept the entire staffs heads above water. And the truth is, 12 can win 8-11 games a year with anybody at HC. 

Lovie may be ask d to leave Champagne.  At the very least he must be feeling the heat. He was at one time a good D guy.  It's been a few years and his rep has taken a hit but he could be viable.

Toofless posted:

I'd love to see Josh McDaniels and 12 work together.

That is is my pick. One of these Pats coordinators have to work out as a head coach sometime don't they?

My prediction for M3's next job (if of course this happens)? Dallas!

Mark it down!

Pack-Man posted:

Meathead McYinzer still thinks Brett Hundley is the right guy for the job. 

More realistically, he realizes it's all he's got.  How productive is it going to be for the HC to throw his only option at QB under the bus after his 3rd start?

Correct DH13, there is no way MM throws BH under the bus....he is the guy.  Too late for anything else.  His performance has shown everyone with brains what MM thinks of JC.    The only thing worse that could happen for MM is if BH gets hurt and MM is forced to play Joe and Joe lights it up.  That of course would show that Mike misjudged both of his back ups.   Not a good look for a O guy.

DH13 posted:

Pack-Man posted:

Meathead McYinzer still thinks Brett Hundley is the right guy for the job. 

More realistically, he realizes it's all he's got.  How productive is it going to be for the HC to throw his only option at QB under the bus after his 3rd start?

Well of course it's too late now. The trade deadline has passed, and the only options out there on the market are bad ones. This notion that a QB Guru couldn't have possibly known how bad Hundley was in the absence of regular season action just doesn't ring true to me. After Rodgers took over as  the starter in '08, McCarthy and the other coaches all talked about how they "knew" Rodgers was ready to be a starter before the 2007 season (Brett's last year, Aaron's 3rd season on the bench), and that was based purely on preseason and training camp performances.

They were willing to take ownership as visionaries then, so they should be willing to own up to seeing something that didn't actually exist in Hundley now. Maybe not now, but they'd better bench him after they get eliminated and be willing to admit they were wrong about him.

Pack-Man posted:

Saban is well into his 60s, he's getting paid more money than he'll ever need, and he has 100% control over how Alabama's football program is run. Oh yeah, and he's built a legacy as one of the greatest coaches in history there. He isn't leaving Alabama, ever. Stop talking about it.

He'd have to be an idiot to leave Alabama. He has NFL players at almost every position and if his star player at QB/WR/RB/OL/DL/LB/DB gets hurt he just puts in the next 4 or 5 star recruit who's waiting in line behind him and plays on.

Why people think successful college coaches will automatically succeed in the NFL is beyond me (John Harbaugh is the exception rather than the rule). Saban is a great coach, don't get me wrong, but about 95% of his success is recruiting. He made one of the biggest coaching blunders in college football history on the kick-6 return against Auburn a few years ago - he's not infallible. Can you imagine what we'd have done to MM if something like the kick 6 had happened to him? At least Brandon Bostick messed up on his own - he did the opposite of what he was coached to do.

MM is loyal to a fault. Both to his staff and to his players. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Yet given that, what do we expect him to actually say in a press conference about “Hesitation “ Huntley? It’s too late in the season to find his replacement anyway. TT gave MM the players and he is pretty much stuck with them. A good GM would be the one to find coaching replacements. I have no idea who. We need new blood in our coaching staff not retreads from another team. MM would be a good OC but maybe even that’s a reach. The “Peter Principal” comes to mind. Same with his other coaches.

Quality starts at the top and we need fresh eyes.

chickenboy posted:

My prediction for M3's next job (if of course this happens)? Dallas!

Mark it down!

Jerry Jones hires coaches like Barry Switzer, Chan Gailey, Dave Campo, Wade Phillips and Jason Garrett for a reason. They come cheaply, and they wouldn't take the spotlight away from him in the unlikely event they win another Super Bowl. McCarthy would demand a good salary and he would bring an established, winning pedigree. Jerry wouldn't be able to stand that.

He only hired Bill Parcells in '03 because they were coming off of 3 consecutive 5-11 seasons under Campo, and he was desperately trying to get that new stadium built. That won't happen again now that he has his stadium.

GBFanForLife posted:

The turning point was when Rodgers got tackled.

I'd call it more like cheap shotted! 

No question its time for DC to do the proverbial spend time with family exit. 

as for TT - I can't tell as I think he put some talent on this years roster. However - if there is young GM talent in the wings we need to move on from TT. It's business and if it was OK for Favre it is OK for TT.

MM for whatever reason has lacked creativity and energy for a few seasons. Seems like he is stuck in his own ego. I recall a game several years ago when the Packers defeated the Patriots. I always watch Belichick at the end of game in which he loses. You could tell he was impressed with the game MM dialed up. I haven't seen much in the past years worthy of this compliment. I don't know if the passing of his brother made him re-evaluate things. Perhaps it did.  Regardless - I know MM has it in him - but he seems reluctant to let it shine.

The Packers ship has gotten off course over the last couple of years or so, and attempts to bring 'er back has been largely unsuccessful. Since the current Commander and Captain can't accomplish that, they will have to be relieved of duty.
The lack of accountability is a very real thing, as much as I want to believe it wasn't. The football side of operations is saturated through and through. Somebody, whether it's the President (sending Murphy packing would suit me just fine) or the GM (ditto for TT), has to take charge and force changes when they become necessary. 

I think the most pressure for this is going to come from the Board. With the  (continuing) investment in the Titletown District, it's important to keep Green Bay vibrant and exciting. Their best chance of that, at this moment, is Aaron Rodgers.
If I make some assumptions that he will play at least another 3 years, and GM/HC changes are made, that's a lot of 'turmoil' the Packers will have to deal with in a relatively short period of time. Within that 'window', it's likely vets like Bulaga, Matthews, and Jordy's time will be done, almost every position has needs at starter and depth, extensions to the 'new' core players will be required, drafting/developing continues....that's a helluva lot to deal with.
Now, let's add the approaching CBA and whatever that may bring, network renewals soon after and the potential impact on the salary cap, and preparation for the eventual retirement of Rodgers.

Yeah, this indeed is a turning point for the Packers as we have known them for the last 20 some-odd years. 
In any case, it's in the best interest for the team, as a whole, to field a competitive team. Losing is no way to attract people and extract their dollars to pay for the future of the team.

JMHO. Others may vary.

ChilliJon posted:

Most troubling aspect about yesterday is Hundley looked like he regressed from play that wasn’t exactly stellar to begin with. He didn’t need to light up a pretty good pass defense or even win. But he did need to look like he was capable of keeping GB competitive. When Baltimore took the 2nd half KO for 7 to make it 13-0 it was tough to imagine Hundley making a game out it. Turned out he couldn’t. 

And, as you noted, McCarthy did jack sh!t to help Hundley yesterday. McCarthy lost confidence in the run game with the Mays fumble #1, and then there was that 4th and 6 call near mid-field. These are just two examples why I think McCarthy is coaching for his job. He flinched yesterday... The defense played well enough in the 1st half for an average offense to win it in the 2nd half, and McCarthy asked Hundley to pass them to victory.

ilcuqui posted:

Pack-Man posted:

McCarthy would immediately get another job if the Packers fired him, but it would be with a team like the Browns or Jets. He'd be fired in 2 or 3 years, and it would be the last NFL head coaching job he would ever get.

Billy B loves him some MM. It's far fetched, but if MM was shown the door I could see BB offering to make him the highest paid OC in the league with the mission of developing Brady's successor. He sells it to Kraft by telling him that when Tom retires, BB can either play with the new kid or have MM in the queue to succeed him. Appeal if any to MM is that he gets to QB coach, which he loves, make coin while not being the front man, and learn from the best coach in the league since Vince.

It will never happen though.

BB and MM are polar opposites, though. New England's offensive schemes morph to fit the personnel they have and the opponent they face. MM likens himself a modern-day Lombardi, thinking "We do what we do" repeatedly is the answer.

A couple years back and at the beginning of last season, I questioned the expected longevity of MM as the Packers HC.  He has coached in GB for 13 years now?   That's about twice as long as the average tenure for an NFL HC.  As I said then and now, Lombardi only lasted 9 years in GB.  

In the last 3-4 years I think there have been tell-tale signs that his mantra was beginning to get dull in GB.  But each of those years he pulled the team back together and made a run into the playoffs.  Yet now, his all-star QB is out and the "emperor has no clothes".  2013 it happened with #12 out and the Packers sank almost out of the playoff picture until Rodgers returned and rescued the day on that great pass to Cobb.  Now again it has happened and it is almost unforgivable to see the Packers team sink into despair and oblivion.  The games vs the Vikes, Saints and Lions were examples of the team falling into a hopelessness that seemed to swallow up their spirit and energy and execution.  It seems like MM has forgotten how to coach...really.  I still cannot grasp the game-plan he had in mind for the offense yesterday and then he kept with it until the brutal end.  Hundley stunk and MM kept calling plays that fed right into the passing game chaos. 

I agree that MM may indeed be coaching for his job next season.

As for TT.  I was always a staunch supporter of his.  But the last couple years his failure to adapt to the ever-changing NFL has cost the Packers in poor draft picks and missed F/As or bad F/A signings.

My best guess at this time, is TT will retire.  The Packers will hire a new GM and MM might be out.  Capers, I think, will hang it up too.  And much of the staff may be on the street.

While we're dreaming - I'd love for Bill Cowher to get a call, just to gauge interest. Loved watching his passion on the sidelines, and the guy knows defense. He may listen for the chance to coach Rodgers for a few years. 

That would be my first call, anyways. Then maybe John Harbaugh 

Skeptical of any real changes except at the margins. My preference continues to be to blow the whole thing up and bring in John Dorsey.

McStupidfaces biggest weakness is his inability to say, "Dom, get the **** out"  

Ok guys so a lot of people are advocating firing MM which I am on the record as saying we would regret seeing that huge mistake.

So who would you have as his replacement?

I'm not at that point either.  Some want change for change's sake which is the path all the moribund franchises have been on for years.  I don't think he's the kind of coach that would lose a team.  However if he loses the team in the final stretch of the season, it could get ugly.  The only other way MM is replaced is if a new GM came in from outside 1265 that had clear alternate choice in mind for HC.

The grass is not always greener.

Pack-Man posted:

McCarthy would immediately get another job if the Packers fired him, but it would be with a team like the Browns or Jets. He'd be fired in 2 or 3 years, and it would be the last NFL head coaching job he would ever get.

This.

I don't think MM should be fired, although his game plans and play calling with Hundley have been head scratching.  Part of that is trying to see what works in real-game situations with him.  TT has left the cupboard bare, though, with not enough difference makers in the last couple drafts, leaving the core group weak.