Is this the turning point?

bigdoggyjude posted:

No question its time for DC to do the proverbial spend time with family exit. 

as for TT - I can't tell as I think he put some talent on this years roster. However - if there is young GM talent in the wings we need to move on from TT. It's business and if it was OK for Favre it is OK for TT.

MM for whatever reason has lacked creativity and energy for a few seasons. Seems like he is stuck in his own ego. I recall a game several years ago when the Packers defeated the Patriots. I always watch Belichick at the end of game in which he loses. You could tell he was impressed with the game MM dialed up. I haven't seen much in the past years worthy of this compliment. I don't know if the passing of his brother made him re-evaluate things. Perhaps it did.  Regardless - I know MM has it in him - but he seems reluctant to let it shine.

Good point about BB's reaction AT THAT TIME to MM. I think the death of the brother may be a bigger factor than we can know. He's lost it.

There are some large financial decisions on long time core guys looming this summer.

Randall Cobb's cap hit in 2018 is 12.75 million. He costs 3.25 in dead cap if he's cut.

CM3's cap hit in 2018 is 11.4 million. He costs nothing in dead cap if he's cut.

Jordy Nelson' cap hit in 2018 is 12.55 million. He only costs 2.3 million in dead cap if he's cut.

Bulaga gets 8.35 million next year and counts only 1.6 million in dead cap.

Those 4 guys will get paid 45 million next year, but will only count 7 million against the cap if they are all cut. Are they worth 38 million collectively to keep around? Sentimentally, yes. Production wise and injury availability considerations - no.

And, as I said before, Rodgers counts 21 million against the cap next year with no dead cap hit if he's cut or traded.

The way they've managed the cap set up this next off-season as a key decision point.

Yep. Cut Jordy Nelson. That is the answer.

Didn't Schottenheimer have Joe Montana as his QB in Kansas City? He was pretty good.

I think it is defeatist thinking to decide not to get rid of someone because you believe you lack the skills to replace him with someone better.

(a bit more qualification)

I want to believe should the Packers replace TT or keep him and thus he is responsible, the GM is competent enough to do his job, which includes choosing the head coach of the Green Bay Packers.

One doesn't run a franchise believing this skill set is lacking, a competent job cannot be carried out.

GBFanForLife posted:

Yep. Cut Jordy Nelson. That is the answer.

I'm not saying it's the answer to their problems. But I think we all know what Bill Belichick would do. 33 year old WRs coming off seasons of less than 600 yards when healthy for most of the year aren't worth 12 million a year.

One hope I have is that Jordy Nelson doesn't end his career getting hurt running trying to prevent a Pick 6 return after a Hundley interception in a meaningless game at the end of the season.

Changing for the sake of change is ok in the Packers scenario simply because Rodgers can win games in spite of his head coach. Without 12, MM is just another coach IMO. I'm still on the Jon Doresey/Josh McDaniels bandwagon. Lovie Smith reached some pretty high points with Cutler and Grossman... for example. I do not advocate pulling a coach from retirement, but maybe someone like Tom Caughlin can come in with this roster and ride out a champion 

You gotta be really sure the perfect candidate is available before you start entertaining cutting ties with MM. 

Moss, Capers, Bennett, Zook? That’s a different story. Not a huge concern you’re doing worse by jettisoning that collective. 

I keep going back to Rodgers “Everyone’s got to be all in from day one” comment after the Atlanta loss. I think he saw all this coming. Like Boris mentioned. There has to be a reasonable level of fear you will be fired as a coach on this staff if you’re not holding up your end of the bargain. That fear clearly doesn’t exist in GB. And the current product on the field reflects it. 

Coughlin is not retired

Regarding McDaniels. Keep in mind he was a monumental disaster in Denver. He damn near burned everything to the ground. Alienated pretty much every level of the operation before he was told to gather up his things and beat it. Some guys are destined to be coordinators. And that’s ok. 

A 33 year old receiver with Rodgers as QB gets 1200 yards.

So Rodgers saw himself going down with an injury and the team collapsing. Interesting.

Jordy can still be very productive working more from slot like he has been doing.

But those 4 are certainly a big matso ball regarding the roster and cap 2018 and beyond.  They need to see how the draft (top 10?) unfolds before making some of those decisions.  If Biegel emerges and they can nab an elite/sub-elite OLB in the draft, I hate to say it but CM$ could become expendable.  He is still a difference maker that makes the D better when he's healthy.  Which is becoming less and less frequent.  Also getting a higher round WR would help replace Cobb if necessary.  There are a few promising OL in the pipleline but going mid round wouldn't hurt.  I don't think they'll draft another DB in RD1 or 2. 

Rodgers saw a staff that was overly reliant on him carrying things by himself and maybe not putting in the work and that what we see without him was a possibility. 

Have to expect a drop off without Rodgers on offense. Not a free fall though. 

Looking at the entire body of work on offense since Aaron went down. I’m not entirely sure what the offense is trying to do and what they are trying to establish. 

The ESPN power rankings basically sum everything up correctly...

GBFanForLife posted:

A 33 year old receiver with Rodgers as QB gets 1200 yards.

So Rodgers saw himself going down with an injury and the team collapsing. Interesting.

I'm saying they structured Rodgers contract in this way for some reason. Maybe it was to facilitate renegotiating another extension. However, it now sets up a number of decisions that will say a lot about how they view this team in the next 2-3 years.

ChilliJon posted:

Rodgers saw a staff that was overly reliant on him carrying things by himself and maybe not putting in the work and that what we see without him was a possibility. 

Have to expect a drop off without Rodgers on offense. Not a free fall though. 

Looking at the entire body of work on offense since Aaron went down. I’m not entirely sure what the offense is trying to do and what they are trying to establish. 

 

I think that all is on the QB position. What exactly are Hundley's strengths? If we're honest, it would probably be some type of zone read system, but he'd take enormous punishment running that type of system and the current backup is a guy who the Browns cut last year and whose last pass in a game that counted was for Wesley College against Mount Union in a D3 playoff game.

Hundley has yet to show he can make downfield reads, look off safeties, or go through progressions. What your left with is to spread the field and throw quick slants or dump the ball off. This puts pressure on the WRs to win right away against press coverage at the LOS, which our current WRs have struggled with even when Rodgers was playing. Cobb really struggles in this context and Nelson is a great route runner in space, but won't physically overpower most CBs. Adams is their best bet here and that's why he's getting the targets. 

They aren't built to be a power running team and even if they were they are down to one RB who is averaging 3.2 yards per carry. Williams is a nice guy to pound the ball with when you get ahead in the second half, but he is no threat to break one.

You could try to feature the TEs more, but they have RichRod and Kendricks (who could be OK) after that POS Martellus Bennett bailed on them after Rodgers got hurt.

So what do people think MM should do?

They likely lose to PIT, then beat TAM and CLE. They'd be 7-6 at that point. If Rodgers comes back and thy win out to finish 10-6, I doubt there will be much change in the staff.

If Rodgers is not quite ready for the CAR game, that is a loss and they at best end up 9-7. That won't get them in the playoffs, and then maybe there are some minor changes.

That's optimistic.  I don't think 10-6 will get them in the playoffs.  If they don't win another game before AR is "ready", I wonder if they still bring him back to finish out the season.

If he wants to play, he plays.   He is the Green Bay Packers

Even at 10-6 they could miss the playoffs, with CAR at 11-5 and ATL at 10-6.

I wasn't being optimistic, just considering the possibilities of change in respect to the performance(s) without Rodgers.

For those that want to dream:  ESPN playoff machine

DH13 posted:

That's optimistic.  I don't think 10-6 will get them in the playoffs.  If they don't win another game before AR is "ready", I wonder if they still bring him back to finish out the season.

If they're not 7-6 going into that Carolina game, there's no point in bringing him back. They should shut him down even if he is ready to go if they're 6-7 or 5-8.

I can see the reasoning but don't agree with the mentality.  

We do what we do.

Per bad Bob McGinn on 3rd and 2 the Packers handed the ball to Jamaal Williams with Kendricks and Cobb as blockers.

TT needs to force MM to cut ties with some assistants and get some new blood on the staff. If he doesn't want to do that out of loyalty or whatever misplaced reason, then MM needs to go. If TT doesn't want to have that discussion with MM, then he needs to go. 

Replacing assistants is like churning the bottom of the roster.  

Hungry5 posted:

Even at 10-6 they could miss the playoffs, with CAR at 11-5 and ATL at 10-6.

I wasn't being optimistic, just considering the possibilities of change in respect to the performance(s) without Rodgers.

For those that want to dream:  ESPN playoff machine

So I just did a full "what if" scenario for all games for all teams Weeks 13-17 without paying attention to its effects on who is in/out until after I finished Week 17.

With what I did, and with Lions, Packers, and Vikings all being 10-6; the Lions got the 4th seed, the Packers got the 6th seed, and the Vikings were out.

I have a new dream for this season.

MIN will win the north with ease.  Best hope is for the full dorkpunch in the playoffs.

DH13 posted:

MIN will win the north with ease.  Best hope is for the full dorkpunch in the playoffs.

Vikings could easily lose @Atlanta, @Lions, @Carolina (those three games are back-back-back), and @Green Bay (if Rodgers).

That puts them at 10-6. If Hundley can beat the Browns/Bengals and Rodgers comes back to win out that puts us at 10-6.

Almost got lured to the podium by tricky media members leaving out some rice cakes and apple juice. Nice try guys. Talk to you at the combine

— Ted Thompson's Mind (@ThompsonsMind) November 21, 2017

is it time?  I lean, yes.  time to shake it, shake it, sugaree.  cocktail has grown stale.  and I'll take Dorsey over Wolf.  what do we know about Wolf?  nothing.  Dorsey proved he can do it.

http://profootballtalk.nbcspor...n-to-nfl-in-january/

NumberThree posted:

DH13 posted:

MIN will win the north with ease.  Best hope is for the full dorkpunch in the playoffs.

Vikings could easily lose @Atlanta, @Lions, @Carolina (those three games are back-back-back), and @Green Bay (if Rodgers).

That puts them at 10-6. If Hundley can beat the Browns/Bengals and Rodgers comes back to win out that puts us at 10-6.

Dreamland.

And the Packers won't beat Tampa. 

At least there is free beer.

http://www.dailyherald.com/spo...ackers-fail-to-score

Henry posted:

And the Packers won't beat Tampa. 

They'll have a lot of trouble with Cleveland also, especially if they don't put them away in the first half (and I don't see a Hundley-led offense scoring a lot of points in any game).

Hungry5 posted:

Almost got lured to the podium by tricky media members leaving out some rice cakes and apple juice. Nice try guys. Talk to you at the combine

— Ted Thompson's Mind (@ThompsonsMind) November 21, 2017

LOL!!!!!!

GBFanForLife posted:

At least there is free beer.

http://www.dailyherald.com/spo...ackers-fail-to-score

MichiganPacker posted:

Henry posted:

And the Packers won't beat Tampa. 

They'll have a lot of trouble with Cleveland also, especially if they don't put them away in the first half (and I don't see a Hundley-led offense scoring a lot of points in any game).

I'll say it again, GB may be the only W CLE notches this year if they keep playing the way they have been.  CLE has been competitive in spurts.

Saw an interesting stat on Jordy Nelson for those thinking maybe it’s time to move on from Jordy or that maybe GB should look to put him out to pasture at the slot to finish his career. 

Jordy hasn’t caught a TD pass since Hundley stepped in for Rodgers in Minny. He’s only caught a TOTAL of 10 passes in those 4 1/2 games. 

Jordy still tied for 4th in NFL in TD receptions with Antonio Brown and AJ Green. 

Everything is broken right now. 

Everything is broken because the trigger man isn't capable. It's disgusting we've been fed a bill of goods that Hundley is capable. 

F U....MM!

Don't you mean FU Ted Thompson?   IT's his chick in the barn.    He is the one who has decided the best strategy for backup QB is to groom a 5th rounder for 3 years instead of hiring rentals with actual game experience.