Lance Armstrong

Jack Armstrong threw great curves

Wasn't Neil Armstrong a coach for the Bears sometime after landing on the mooon?

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
Jack Armstrong threw great curves

Keep going man. Don't stop now! We all love you.

anything to distract from your ****ty arguement

Credos to Armstrong for winning the Tour 7X.
Credos to Armstrong for beating cancer.
Credos to Armstrong (foundation) for raising butt-loads of money for cancer research.

That said, Armstrong's an ass.

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
IC is worried about BJ

Keep me out of your fantasies....idiot

quote:

Originally posted by :


That said, Armstrong's an ass.

I have met Lance ARmstrong....actually had a beer with Lance ARmstrong....You sir are no Lance ARmstrong.

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
anything to distract from your ****ty arguement

8 days and less than 30 posts to hate on the bongstar....gotta be some kind of record.

That took balls

So did comparing someone to a Tickle Monster, no matter if it was just to prove a point. I love him, didn't you see?

Then again, I've seen so much shiit go back and forth on this website watching over the years that I know not to take everything personally. He has his shiity arguement and I have my ****ty arguement. No harm done, and that is why I had to join x4.

Rodney King passes (tragically) and this crap breaks out.

Coincidence?

I think not.

quote:

Originally posted by justanotherpackerfan:
Neil and Lance both had bad days yesterday...I hope Stretch is OK.

That dudes been dead for decades.. Neil and Lance had diffcult but successful lives, poor stretch took punishment right out of the box and only lasted a few years.

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
Can someone please tell me what a mass spectrometer is?

Mass = the weight of the chemical, Spectrometer comes from the word "spectrum"

So, you're essentially taking a mixture like blood or urine and breaking into a "spectrum" of its constituent pieces based on their molecular weights

It's a $500,000 machine designed to analyze the chemical composition of a mixed sample. The way it works is to inject a tiny amount of prepared material into a chamber and then see how far things "fly" based on their molecular weight and charge. Each chemical has a signature result and they can then say if it is present or not based on that signature ( qualitative) and also glean detailed info on how much was in there (quantitative)

They are exceedingly good at finding things in small quantities provided you know what you are looking for. If you don't know what you're looking for there are too many variables involved to be certain of what you're seeing. It also requires a fair amount of preparation and method development to work out all the details of the actual test.
When a new medicine/drug is developed they have to work out an analytical method to test for it during clinical trials. That takes several weeks/months and from $25-50K in effort to complete- that's how the cheaters stay ahead of the testers. Its simply too costly and time consuming for WADA or others to test for everything under the sun, and as noted the athletes can stop taking it before testing and still pass the test

When asked if he ever cheated Lance always replied that he was tested hundreds of times and was never caught. Note that this is much different than saying I never cheated - all he is saying is that he wasn't caught, and that is a function of the science behind it. Kudos to him for parsing words and fooling millions.

Q: "Do you ever speed on the freeway ?" A: " I never got a speeding ticket.. "

Given an infinite number of variations in the steroids, EPO etc, the testers will never be able to keep up with the cheaters and merely stating that you've never been caught is just a function of that scientific reality

Unless they put a microchip into the athletes that can record everything that passed through their systems- we'll never know all the answers. But we aren't too far away from that type of system being a reality...

Lance learned all about EPO when he was a cancer patient and he had access to the people who created it, created the tests for it and where the holes in the science lie. Amgen used him as a poster boy for their drug

We also have to remember that EPO brings in $2 billion/yr in revenue for Amgen, and there are hundreds of biotech companies looking for a similar drug to develop so they can get in on the billions for treating cancer-related anemia.

The combination of biotech money, fame and athletic glory provides plenty of motivation for all kinds of people to develop a new drug similar to EPO in effect, but different enough in composition to avoid patent issues, testing issues and money issues

Lance cheated and it matters little that others did too or that he wasn't caught with the current testing methods. His rise to fame and glory was tainted and each of us can decide if we're cool with that or not.
Guilty people go free every day and innocent people go to jail....

A mass spectrometer isn't infallible and neither is a judge and jury

What Satori said.

The guy is a genius. He was tested hundreds of times and knew how to beat it every time. He most likely was a time traveler because he knew beforehand each time that he would be tested and then was able to make sure he masked what he was taking. Brilliant!

quote:

Originally posted by Satori:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:


Unless they put a microchip into the athletes that can record everything that passed through their systems...

Just means The engineers become the new stars. At the moments. the chemists get the lone starring role. There is way too much money involved to go straight.

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
what did he test positive for again?

That pretty much sums it up for me

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
Jack Armstrong threw great curves

Curves rocks.

Well, Lance did know exactly what he was going to be tested for because all of the testing agencies are required to publish: what they are testing for, how the test will be conducted, what methods are used, how false positives will be re-tested as well as any appeals to another independent lab.

No genius or time travel needed, just the ability to read in one of 12 languages the info is printed in.

And if the designer drug you are currently taking isn't on the list, then you're in The Clear, no masking needed

You wanna believe in Lance, go right ahead, its always your choice.
Cat and mouse ? Absolutely. Witch hunt ? No sale...every system can be beat whether its Wall Street Traders screwing your 401k or doping for Olympic athletes...humans are a pretty crafty bunch

( but not that whizzinator guy, he was an idiot viking)

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
what did he test positive for again?

That pretty much sums it up for me

It shouldn't. A guy walks into the testing room smoking crack and still passes a tox test do you think he's innocent? Successful test cheaters are still cheaters.

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:

That pretty much sums it up for me

They didn't catch him with the tests available at the time, they caught him later on when the tests improved and the samples were re-analyzed. I'm sure there is a legal loophole in there somewhere and you have to give the guy credit- he did beat the system in place at the time- it took the scientists a decade to catch up with him.

He also was the one peddling the bike up the mountain, regardless of any enhancements. To win 7 is pretty ****ing awesome even if he had help

Honest question... has anyone alledged that there is a connection between performance enhancers and his cancer?

quote:

Originally posted by Satori:
Mass = the weight of the chemical, Spectrometer comes from the word "spectrum"

So, you're essentially taking a mixture like blood or urine and breaking into a "spectrum" of its constituent pieces based on their molecular weights

It's a $500,000 machine designed to analyze the chemical composition of a mixed sample. The way it works is to inject a tiny amount of prepared material into a chamber and then see how far things "fly" based on their molecular weight and charge. Each chemical has a signature result and they can then say if it is present or not based on that signature ( qualitative) and also glean detailed info on how much was in there (quantitative)

Sweet. Just two questions:

1. How is your consensus board shaping up?
2. Where does the FedEx guy fit into all of this?

I don't believe Lance is innocent. I just don't see where he can be found guilty when all of the relevant testing came up negative. I also don't see how they can claim anyone from that era is innocent until they are all put through the same prolonged investigation that Armstrong has faced.

If I believe anything, it's that Armstrong was indeed cheating, and he won those 7 Tours vs opponents who were also cheating.

quote:

Originally posted by JJSD:

1. How is your consensus board shaping up?
2. Where does the FedEx guy fit into all of this?

I figured that tome was worth at least one Cliff Clavin reference

And Fed Ex is the one who ships the samples, they aren't going to trust the Postal Service to deliver on time

quote:

Originally posted by Tavis Smiley:
Then again, I've seen so much shiit go back and forth on this website watching over the years that I know not to take everything personally. He has his shiity arguement and I have my ****ty arguement. No harm done, and that is why I had to join x4.

You are wise in the ways of x4.

mazrimiv,if the rules say you can only punish a guy for testing positive, sure. To use another extreme example, what if he gets busted at the airport carrying PED's. Do you punish him?

How many ****ty, non-existent scenarios are you going to paint for us today, Orange Guy?

3. Next one is a doozy. Stay up for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Satori:
Well, Lance did know exactly what he was going to be tested for because all of the testing agencies are required to publish: what they are testing for, how the test will be conducted, what methods are used, how false positives will be re-tested as well as any appeals to another independent lab.

No genius or time travel needed, just the ability to read in one of 12 languages the info is printed in.

And if the designer drug you are currently taking isn't on the list, then you're in The Clear, no masking needed

You wanna believe in Lance, go right ahead, its always your choice.
Cat and mouse ? Absolutely. Witch hunt ? No sale...every system can be beat whether its Wall Street Traders screwing your 401k or doping for Olympic athletes...humans are a pretty crafty bunch

( but not that whizzinator guy, he was an idiot viking)

What? You're saying that people will cheat to garner fame and fortune? You sir are a silly pants. Somebody get Bernie on the phone. He's not going to believe this ****.

quote:

Originally posted by mazrimiv:
I just don't see where he can be found guilty when all of the relevant testing came up negative.

That's a fair comment. But the tests aren't a determination of innocence or guilt, just like in a court of law. Its a test of what can you prove. We now go back and do DNA testing in old rape/ murdrer cases because that was not available at the time of sentencing. Many innocent people are finally released from prison because a newer better test became available and exonerate them. Should they rot in prison because that test wasn't around in 1979 ?

My guess is that his ongoing arrogance contributed to the doggedness with which he was pursued. Everybody is defiant until they get caught- see Floyd Landis

And now that the new tests have been done and he has been busted, he decided that today would be the day he stops talking about it forever. He's not dumb.

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:
mazrimiv,if the rules say you can only punish a guy for testing positive, sure. To use another extreme example, what if he gets busted at the airport carrying PED's. Do you punish him?

I don't know the specifics of what can and can't be punished. My understanding of this situation is that WADA and USADA have tested Armstrong far more than any other cyclist, and when that failed to yield the results they were looking for, they proceeded to convict him based on the the testimony of 3rd parties. I just don't see how that kind of process can be taken seriously.

It's also my understanding that Armstrong is a bit of an arrogant a-hole, and genuine bad blood exists between Armstrong and the admin of both WADA and USADA. This situation has vendetta written all over it.

I think they gave him a chance to defend himself. He passed on that chance so they "convicted" him. Maybe, he really was tired of defending himself. There is also the chance that he felt the evidence was too strong. Who knows?

these years after the fact spankings are always so meaningful

For those that say Lance shouldn't be punished because he never tested positive in any drug test, remember that Olympic type sports have different standards than professional American sports or what would be needed in a court of law. In the sport of track & field, Marion Jones never tested positive but they stripped her of her Olympic medals. Tim Montgomery never tested positive but they stripped him of his world record in the 100m.

It defies logic to think that Lance never used PED. How else would an athlete who is old (in sports terms at least) be able to dominate in what is one of the most grueling athletic events against the best cyclists in the world (who are in their prime age-wise) most of whom had been taking PED?

Using, not using, testing procedures..... all missing the point. This is the true crime of bike racing.

coulda went all day without seeing that...thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Tavis Smiley:
No harm done,

(I wasn't really accusing you of being a rapist, I hope that was clear enough)