I thought it stood for
Don't. Value. Obvious. Anomalies.
@GBP1 posted:My confidence in MLF is <50%. Listening to him, he just keeps repeating the same messages over and over. Almost as though he's trying to convince himself he is a HC in the NFL.
He sounds like a broken record after every loss. "We gotta be better", "In this league...", "this is the NFL..." "I gotta be better...", "We didn't expect as much man and we were late to adjust", "That's on me...", etc.
And my favorite 2024 quote "It starts with me..."
Wrong... IT ENDS WITH YOU. After all this time, if MLF cannot fix his own shortcomings, how can we expect MLF to fix others?
I live in the Philly area and for 15 years this was exactly Andy Reid. And the local response was exactly as written above. And now Andy Reid is Hall of Fame material. I hope the same progression occurs with MLF, except all in Green Bay!
PS. He has the 2nd most victories in his first 6 years of coaching in NFL.
After Sunday's De bach El , we will see what this guy is really made of . Will the Packers re-gain their edge they had after the Saints game or fold up like a cheap lawn chair at a weight watchers convention?
It would help if they played the Saints.
I say Fire Robert Salah. He is advising our offense.
I don't understand the narrative that a coach, in this case MLF, cannot improve. If a coach is lazy, dumb, or too stubborn that would be the case. My estimation is that MLF is neither lazy nor dumb. Not sure about stubborn.
As a first time head coach (at any level) he has to revamp the offensive scheme that he "grew up in", to fit what AR wanted to do. We might have known at the time but future events have clarified that AR was probably a huge pain in the ass.
During his time in GB, he has dealt with AR, substandard DCs and ST coaches. (not sure if some of those choices were his), a multitude of high draft picks spent on the defense that have not become stars, transitioning to a talented but raw QB, and the the youngest roster in the league two years in a row.
Of course he says the same things after every loss. Throwing your players or assistants under the bus in a post game press conference is a recipe for failure. You take ownership and give the press nothing.
Yes, he's made mistakes both in game plan and sideline decisions. It is correct that everything starts and ends with him. However, to think that he cannot improve, is shortsighted.
I would venture to say some would question is the HC is actually improving after 6 years.
Right now he is the coach and a pretty good one at that. I caution replacing him.
Stability means a lot.
Pretty much my thoughts too, PP.
Replacing a coach that wins 12-13 games per season is a huge risk, obviously.
And I don't know that there is a viable candidate that can do that. There very well may be one; I just don't know who it could be.
@DocBenni posted:I don't understand the narrative that a coach, in this case MLF, cannot improve. If a coach is lazy, dumb, or too stubborn that would be the case. My estimation is that MLF is neither lazy nor dumb. Not sure about stubborn.
As a first time head coach (at any level) he has to revamp the offensive scheme that he "grew up in", to fit what AR wanted to do. We might have known at the time but future events have clarified that AR was probably a huge pain in the ass.
During his time in GB, he has dealt with AR, substandard DCs and ST coaches. (not sure if some of those choices were his), a multitude of high draft picks spent on the defense that have not become stars, transitioning to a talented but raw QB, and the the youngest roster in the league two years in a row.
Of course he says the same things after every loss. Throwing your players or assistants under the bus in a post game press conference is a recipe for failure. You take ownership and give the press nothing.
Yes, he's made mistakes both in game plan and sideline decisions. It is correct that everything starts and ends with him. However, to think that he cannot improve, is shortsighted.
Agree with pretty much everything said above other than the implication that MLF is somehow blameless for the "substandard DCs and ST coaches."
The FRONT OFFICE denied MLF his first choice of ST Coordinator (Darren Rizzi) and he was forced to settle on the overmatched Shawn Mennenga.
The FRONT OFFICE also foisted the already under contract Mike Pettine on MLF when he came on board in 2019. MLF was not to blame for the FRONT OFFICE going cheap when it came to those initial hires.
However, when MLF was allowed to fire Mennenga in 2021 he chose the unbelievably bad Mo Drayton. Indeed, after a historically bad STs performance that culminated in a blocked FG and punt in the playoff loss to the Niners, MLF agonized over firing Drayton.
Bisaccia was hired to succeed Drayton and the results have been underwhelming at best. If MLF hired Bisaccia the poor results are on him. If MLF (the Head Coach) did not hire Bisaccia (his STs Coordinator) then the organization is dysfunctional.
Finally, when MLF moved on from Pettine all reports indicated it was he who actively sought out 2-time loser Joe Barry as his new DC. That was a brutally bad decision when MLF made it and it looks even worse today.
Hafley appears to be miles better than Barry, but there are no mulligans in the NFL and the Drayton & Barry hires were disasters that fall squarely on MLF's shoulders.
@PA green & gold posted:I live in the Philly area and for 15 years this was exactly Andy Reid. And the local response was exactly as written above. And now Andy Reid is Hall of Fame material. I hope the same progression occurs with MLF, except all in Green Bay!
PS. He has the 2nd most victories in his first 6 years of coaching in NFL.
Andy Reid was always a good coach. I wish he'd have followed Mike Holmgren in Green Bay. He still really doesn't manage the clock well but is a great play designer. It sounds a lot like MLF.
When Reid was in Philly, he had a good, but not great, QB in McNabb. He then had a very good, but slightly flawed QB in Vick (who would have been really great if Reid would have had him early in his career). The Eagles made the playoffs almost every year Reid was there and got to one Super Bowl. While MLF hasn't made a Super Bowl, he's been to the playoffs almost every year. 2019-21 Rodgers was much better than McNabb ever was, but you could argue MLF was why he returned to MVP status. Also, 2019-21 playoff Rodgers was only adequate.
Andy Reid is a great coach. MLF may be a great coach. Andy Reid has Patrick Mahomes, and more important, he has playoff Patrick Mahomes now.
If wolf hired Andy Reid over the two coordinators at the time like he wanted, protests would still be going on today.
You might be right ð
So, right now, MLF is Marty Schottenheimer.
Marty Schottenheimer had a playoff record of 5 wins and 13 losses during his coaching career in the NFL.
MLF is currently 3-4 in the playoffs. Let's see what happens this year.
@MichiganPacker2 posted:Andy Reid is a great coach. MLF may be a great coach. Andy Reid has Patrick Mahomes, and more important, he has playoff Patrick Mahomes now.
Andy Reid (and Patrick Mahomes) also now has a top 5 D. PM has been middle of the pack on a down to down basis this year, often pulling out close games in the final minutes. Games kept close by the D.
This isn't the first time we've seen this HC/QB/D dynamic. The previous one also won multiple titles.
@Floridarob posted:If wolf hired Andy Reid over the two coordinators at the time like he wanted, protests would still be going on today.
If Sherm Lewis wouldn't have had the alcohol problems, he might have been OK as a head coach (certainly better than Rhodes who basically ran a country club). But, I agree, the only reason he hired Rhodes was that he didn't want Lewis as the head coach and he knew that if he hired Reid over Lewis, all hell would have broken loose.
Reid may have been able to control Favre and gotten another title or two out of him.
@D J posted:So, right now, MLF is Marty Schottenheimer.
For all of Schottenheimer's playoff issues, he hired great assistant coaches and coordinators who had success elsewhere after they left - Bill Cowher, Bruce Arians, Tony Dungy, Mike McCarthy. MLF has yet to do that.
Many of Schottenheimer's playoff failures were bad luck. Ernest Byner's fumble, the Charger's DB who intercepted Brady to basically seal the game and then fumbled the ball back on a return he didn't need to try. The problem then is that the pressure builds up on that coach and Schottenheimer then got really tight and made mistakes that lost games for reasons other than bad luck. That's the worry with MLF now - that he coaches so tight in playoff games and the pressure rubs off on his players. If Byner doesn't fumble going in for a TD in that Broncos-Browns playoff game, the whole narrative about Schottenheimer changes.
I think for some of these coaches, they are better off being a 6 or a 7 seed. No one expected the Packers to win playoff games last year and they could play and coach loose since no one expected them to win anyway (until Carlson missed the FG against the Niners which changed the whole body language of the team).
@DH13 posted:Andy Reid (and Patrick Mahomes) also now has a top 5 D. PM has been middle of the pack on a down to down basis this year, often pulling out close games in the final minutes. Games kept close by the D.
This isn't the first time we've seen this HC/QB/D dynamic. The previous one also won multiple titles.
I agree and, with perhaps the exception of the 2010s Patriots (which is a big exception), the top 5 D is almost always associated with an elite pass rush or HOF pass rusher/defensive lineman for the last 30 years. Reggie White, Charles Haley, Chris Jones, Michael Strahan, Richard Seymour, Aaron Donald, Von Miller (CM3 played at a HOF level in the early 2010s).
If you don't have a dominant defensive lineman, you need a superstar DB that can shut down the best opposing WR (the Legion of Boom Seahawks, Deion Sanders, D. Revis, Charles Woodson, Steelers DBs (Polamalu, Rod Woodson), Ed Reed, etc.
You need 2-3 elite players on defense and a DC competent enough to take advantage of those players. Both Capers and Shurmur were decent coaches and coordinators elsewhere, but when they had superstars they put them into positions to make plays and they did. If you don't have anyone to put into position to make plays, you only look competent, not great.
Does he need to manage the clock and call some plays better? Or course. But for anyone to think a coach who just led the NFLâs youngest team to the playoffs two straight years should be on the hot seat is crazy to me. https://t.co/gpeEqSDlia
â Matt Schneidman (@mattschneidman) January 8, 2025
He's had numerous chances to "fix" his weak spot which is CLEARLY clock management in the last 2 minutes of both halves. He gave a win over the Bears away because of his shit clock management.
Unless this mofo wins a couple games in the playoffs, he should be on the hot seat. That shit at the end of the Bear game was fucking inexcusable!
I am not proposing MLF needs to be replaced.
But in evaluating him as a HC, is he improving - has he improved over his 6 years in GB? Is he making the same mistakes he's made in the past and are those mistakes resulting in losses or limiting the team's ultimate success?
It's a tough thing to evaluate because every team and every season is different. Over the 6 years he's had games and runs where he looks head and shoulders above. And there are games and streaks where he looks outcoached, usually by the same guys. The ultimate test is how far he takes his team. Does he get into the playoffs and does he win in the playoffs.
@MichiganPacker2 posted:I agree and, with perhaps the exception of the 2010s Patriots (which is a big exception), the top 5 D is almost always associated with an elite pass rush or HOF pass rusher/defensive lineman for the last 30 years. Reggie White, Charles Haley, Chris Jones, Michael Strahan, Richard Seymour, Aaron Donald, Von Miller (CM3 played at a HOF level in the early 2010s).
If you don't have a dominant defensive lineman, you need a superstar DB that can shut down the best opposing WR (the Legion of Boom Seahawks, Deion Sanders, D. Revis, Charles Woodson, Steelers DBs (Polamalu, Rod Woodson), Ed Reed, etc.
You need 2-3 elite players on defense and a DC competent enough to take advantage of those players. Both Capers and Shurmur were decent coaches and coordinators elsewhere, but when they had superstars they put them into positions to make plays and they did. If you don't have anyone to put into position to make plays, you only look competent, not great.
All the best players on the Lions have been hurt the past few weeks but their DC has them playing great and shut down probably the 2nd best offense in the NFC. That defense looks a lot better than competent with no stars.
@Floridarob posted:All the best players on the Lions have been hurt the past few weeks but their DC has them playing great and shut down probably the 2nd best offense in the NFC. That defense looks a lot better than competent with no stars.
We'll see what happens when they need to win 2 games against good teams to get to the Super Bowl. It was a great game plan, but if the Vikings end up playing them again, I'm sure they'll have come up with ways to attack the zero blitz stuff. Other than the game against the Bears, the Lions defense has been hemorrhaging points for the last month. A depleted Niners unit put up 34. The Bills hung 48 on them. The Packers put up 31. Give Glenn credit, he had to try something different and it worked, but I'm not sure that approach is sustainable once teams prepare for it.
@Boris posted:He's had numerous chances to "fix" his weak spot which is CLEARLY clock management in the last 2 minutes of both halves. He gave a win over the Bears away because of his shit clock management.
Unless this mofo wins a couple games in the playoffs, he should be on the hot seat. That shit at the end of the Bear game was fucking inexcusable!
Yes, that shit at the end of the Bears game is totally inexcusable not one question about that in my mind and we can agree on that for sure.
But should he really be on the hot seat? I say absolutely not and I could really argue that he should be in the conversation for coach of the year. Why? He has taken the rawist and youngest team in the league to the playoffs two years in a row which IMHO hasn't even played their best ball yet.
Two years ago, this franchise ripped off the Rodgers band aid and did a on the fly rebuild that didn't implode but in many ways they are BETTER. He has had to break in a new QB, unscrew the defense, and he created a more hard nosed team that isn't backing down from anyone and also has truly committed to running the damn ball which we all have wanted to see for years.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we need to look at the bigger picture and when the Packers lose (and all NFL teams lose heartbreakers) everyone wants him canned but it seems like MLF is not given much if any credit by fans when things are going well.
He's not going anywhere for a while. Could you find a better head coach? Maybe, but the chances are very high that whoever you hire will turn out much worse than MLF. MLF is clearly a top 10 NFL head coach right now. He does things very well that other coaches struggle with. He's handled the Rodgers, Alexander, and Doubs egos and situations about as well as you could expect anyone to. He is very good with QBs in the offseason programs. He is a very creative play caller. He seems to work well with Gutey and isn't angling to get more power.
He's struggled with hiring defensive and special teams coordinators and clock management. He sometimes gets enamored with specific plays and goes to the jet sweep well way too often (like MM used to run that Kuhn FB dive play on short yardage all the time).
But, overall, you know you are likely to always be a decent team with him as your head coach.
If anything, I think Gutey should be on the hot seat more (and I think he should stay for a while too). He's failed several times to address weaknesses at key positions that have cost them in playoff games. Some of them should be easy (having a competent kicker) to address. Some of them (an elite edge rusher) are very challenging to address.
@MichiganPacker2 posted:He's not going anywhere for a while. Could you find a better head coach? Maybe, but the chances are very high that whoever you hire will turn out much worse than MLF.
Just look around the league and try to find current coaches who replaced coaches that were already successful. I don't think there are any and the reason for that is in the quote above. Finding a good HC (and accompanying staff) takes a bit of a crystal ball along with a GM that gives that coach what he needs to win.
The only way I would ever want MLF replaced (at the time) would be with a proven better option. That's a very short list of guys who would not be available for the same reason M2 listed above.
You don't have to look far to find franchises who just continuously cycle through guys every few years. Falling into that death loop usually commits you to sadness for a long time.
Find a HC that puts a premium on the little details, and is a hard ass about it with his staff and players.
When MM first started, he was much better at that aspect of coaching. Once he won the Super Bowl, it started to slip. And it devolved into the whole massage-gate season.
MLF has no excuse...he's not yet won a trophy. Close, but not yet. Yeah, he's an offensive jeenyus, but so what? He can get his squad to hang 30 on bad teams...but vs good teams he's proven he can get his team in a giant hole, and then close-but-no-cigar dig the team out of it in the 2H.
X4 told me though this was all going to change now that 12 was gone, and MLF finally had a QB to "run the offense like it's called!" Hmm...
X4 is usually right.... ð
There are valid points on defending MLF as a coach and not much of a good option to replace him with. I agree.
Yes, he is a very good offensive minded coach, however the game management and to that extent, clock management has for the most part been subpar through six years and continue to make the same mistakes.
As I look across the league, this seems to be the modus operandi of head coaches that call offensive plays. This may be because they are so wrapped up in the Xâs and Oâs and the basic functions of a head coach management the game suffers.
Itâs interesting to know when the NFL has transitioned to finding the next young offensive play caller as a head coach, instead of having a head coach with their coordinators calling the plays while the head coach controls the game. Is it because the teams fear losing good offensive minds but are ok with the subpar game management principles?
If and when the Packers look for a new Head coach, maybe we should revert back to that philosophy. Head Coachâs manage the games and motivate the troops and have their coordinates develop, scheme and call plays.
@PackLandVA posted:I would venture to say some would question is the HC is actually improving after 6 years.
Saying he should be replaced is a dumb take. 90% of other coaches would run this team into the ground. MLF has gotten us into the playoffs.
But that doesn't mean we can't be critical of his weak points. He expects his players to improve every year, but he's at the point where he's starting to plateau.
Guys like Andy Reid, Harbaugh, and Tomlin always seem to be improving every year and pushing the boundaries. If MLF wants to be considered a great coach, not just a good one, he needs to put in the work to minimize his flaws to step up to that level.
In trying to assess his performance over 6 seasons, you look at trends.
+continues to get the team into the playoffs despite QB change and roster turnover
-continues to fumble late game clock and situational decisions
-going from sweeping the NFCN to 1-5 and 0-3 @home is not a good trajectory.
@MaximusHess posted:As I look across the league, this seems to be the modus operandi of head coaches that call offensive plays. This may be because they are so wrapped up in the Xâs and Oâs and the basic functions of a head coach management the game suffers.
Itâs interesting to know when the NFL has transitioned to finding the next young offensive play caller as a head coach, instead of having a head coach with their coordinators calling the plays while the head coach controls the game. Is it because the teams fear losing good offensive minds but are ok with the subpar game management principles?
If and when the Packers look for a new Head coach, maybe we should revert back to that philosophy. Head Coachâs manage the games and motivate the troops and have their coordinates develop, scheme and call plays.
I have wanted MLF to let someone else call the plays for a bit now because I do think he gets too deeply involved in the X's and O's. He's intense and focused and emotional and more concerned about what's happening right then than looking at the big picture. When GB is on D, he's thinking about what to call when they get the ball back. I think it was what happened at the end of the Bears game: he was over-thinking the play he should call if they went for it vs kicking the FG, got too wrapped up in the emotions and which play to call, panicked, and called the TO. Yes, he should have calmed down and thought it through--he had the time--and he should have had that sorted out in his mind ahead of time, but that's where his emotions come into play.
Reid has Mahomes, so his QB overcomes what is sometimes bad clock management. Reid is also not as young and emotional as MLF, so he's able to take a step back and see the bigger picture.
MLF isn't great at managing a clock, but with Rodgers he didn't have to be because 12 was so good at it; it was hard to know where MLF's clock management and Rodgers' were separated. Now, Love won't be great at clock management for at least several years and will probably never hit Rodgers' acumen. MLF can still create plays, make game plans, suggest plays during games, etc., but I think his clock management will improve faster if he stops calling plays.
Fascinating conversation. Well done, all! There are OC's and DC's. Maybe there needs to be a clock coordinator? Seems to be way more important than anyone really thinks. Teams blowing it all around the league. You guys are so good, I don't know which side to take.
@lovepack posted:Fascinating conversation. Well done, all! There are OC's and DC's. Maybe there needs to be a clock coordinator?
Leave the politics out of it.
"We might get a worse coach!" is never a valid argument for not firing someone. I am not saying MLF should or shouldn't be fired.
There's a lot of factors that go into that kind of decision...but making awful game management mistakes, 6 years into your career as a HC, isn't a good look. And it has happened every year under MLF. That's not to say we should expect mistake-free football...that's an unrealistic expectation. But for a veteran coach with a mostly veteran staff is a bad look annually.
And then we get YEAH BUT THE PACKERS ARE THE YOUNGEST TEAM IN THE NFL!!!!
True 25 years and 7 months is the average age of the Packers players...the LA Rams are next up (25 years, 11 mos), followed by the Broncos (26y, 1m), Bucs (26y, 1m), Chargers(26y, 2m), Eagles(26y, 2m), Raiders(26y, 3m) and Chiefs(26y, 3m).
https://bookies.com/nfl/picks/nfl-teams-average-age
So are we to believe the difference of an average of 3 months between the Packers, Eagles and Chiefs is the critical factor?
Bullshit!
@MichiganPacker2 posted:I agree and, with perhaps the exception of the 2010s Patriots (which is a big exception), the top 5 D is almost always associated with an elite pass rush or HOF pass rusher/defensive lineman for the last 30 years. Reggie White, Charles Haley, Chris Jones, Michael Strahan, Richard Seymour, Aaron Donald, Von Miller (CM3 played at a HOF level in the early 2010s).
If you don't have a dominant defensive lineman, you need a superstar DB that can shut down the best opposing WR (the Legion of Boom Seahawks, Deion Sanders, D. Revis, Charles Woodson, Steelers DBs (Polamalu, Rod Woodson), Ed Reed, etc.
You need 2-3 elite players on defense and a DC competent enough to take advantage of those players. Both Capers and Shurmur were decent coaches and coordinators elsewhere, but when they had superstars they put them into positions to make plays and they did. If you don't have anyone to put into position to make plays, you only look competent, not great.
Back in 2007, just before OT began in the Giants-Packers NFCCG, I said to an older brother, the Giants will have a much better chance of beating the Patriots. Why? The Giants had a 6-man rotation that could put pressure on Brady, the Packers, meh.
It's been a long time since the Packers took pressuring the opposing QB seriously. And then it was God who directed Reggie White to Green Bay. I wish God would become a Packers fan again.
@Boris posted:He's had numerous chances to "fix" his weak spot which is CLEARLY clock management in the last 2 minutes of both halves. He gave a win over the Bears away because of his shit clock management.
Unless this mofo wins a couple games in the playoffs, he should be on the hot seat. That shit at the end of the Bear game was fucking inexcusable!
As I have said.
If he cannot improve in clock management after 6-seasons, he never will. He and Gute should both be on the hot seat if they lose to the Eagles.
I was not advocating for MLF to be fired. Nor do I want him to be fired. But, he is on a precarious pathway, that only he can change.
I think this playoff game vs Philly could be the most pivotal game yet in his career. Win well and all gets better. Win ugly and things still seem better. Lose competently and competitively, things will appear better. Lose ugly due to the same mistakes and lackluster performance, then MLF places himself in a difficult position with and unpredictable future on the hot seat.