Packers Roster - Significiantly improved at TE, RB, and DB. Significantly weaker in the OL.

Wes Welker is a good side by side comp. with Cobb. Same height/weight/speed. Used pretty much the same way. Was never the primary reciever. And Wes played the majority of his career with Brady and Manning. So the QB comp is there as well. 

Wes ended his career with 50TDs and 9k yards. He earned a total of $41 million during his career. If you would have asked Tom Brady in 2012 if Wes was worth his production (he only hit double digit TD receptions once in his career, none with New England) Brady would have looked at you like you'd never watched an NFL game. Manning would have done the same. 

Cobb has earned $24 million total at this point in his career. If he plays out the remainder of his current deal it becomes $42 million total. And he'll be in the same neighborhood as Welkers career stats. In four fewer years. 

I know you never pay future money for past performance. But Green Bay has made a damned killing off the numbers Cobb has put up his first six years while paying him an average of $4 million per season. Including all the reasons mentioned by Boris. 

ChilliJon posted:

Pre camp or post camp?  

Closer to post, than pre camp. Needs enough reps to separate the two.

ChilliJon posted:

Wes Welker is a good side by side comp. with Cobb. Same height/weight/speed. Used pretty much the same way. Was never the primary reciever. And Wes played the majority of his career with Brady and Manning. So the QB comp is there as well.

Dude, I don't understand- Wes Welker surpassed 1000 yards 5 times, over 100 catches 5 times. In what way exactly is the comparison valid? Cobb had one year- his contract year- where he had a Welker-like season.

Welker's '07-'12 seasons were among the most prolific and productive 6 seasons for a WR in NFL history. If you want to compare Cobb and Welker, there is no comparison...

http://profootballtalk.nbcspor...ter-rookie-minicamp/

dawoger says:May 8, 2017 5:53 PM

Also from that comments field: The Vikings have lost more games in the playoffs than any other team in NFL history
Just saying

Music City posted:

ChilliJon posted:

Wes Welker is a good side by side comp. with Cobb. Same height/weight/speed. Used pretty much the same way. Was never the primary reciever. And Wes played the majority of his career with Brady and Manning. So the QB comp is there as well.

Dude, I don't understand- Wes Welker surpassed 1000 yards 5 times, over 100 catches 5 times. In what way exactly is the comparison valid? Cobb had one year- his contract year- where he had a Welker-like season.

Welker's '07-'12 seasons were among the most prolific and productive 6 seasons for a WR in NFL history. If you want to compare Cobb and Welker, there is no comparison...

Cobb plays 12 years and he'll surpass all of Welkers numbers.  Welker averaged 11 yards per reception for his career. Cobb is at 12.3 right now. Seriously man. They are the same reciever. "Most prolific and productive 6 seasons for a WR in NFL history" Geezus fuk. 

One of the most prolific six year stretches at WR in NFL history looks like 37 TDs and 7,400 yards in 93 games And you think Cobb deserves a pay cut for 30 TDs and 4,400 yards in 81 games. 

3,000 yards in the next 12 games would be a heck of an accomplishment. 

Given that it's just the length of the football field 30 times, 3000 yards seems doable.

250 yards/game, make it so. 

Lenzy Pipkins

This guy needs to make the roster.  Just has to.

Makes people want to pinch his cheeks and say, "Who's a Lenzy Pipkins.... you are... oh yes you are.... you're a Lenzy Pipkins." 

Goalline is drunk in the morning again

Uhm.... I'm not sure Goalline is the one who's been drinking.

I give up trying to embed any more Tweets until someone posts a tutorial. Boris, that makes me sad. Hold me. 

Post using source code ding dong.

Damn you guys and your computer literacy. Fedya and I are just fine with our ENIAC's. You won't believe how small they make these things now. 

Music City posted:

Welker's '07-'12 seasons were among the most prolific and productive 6 seasons for a WR in NFL history. If you want to compare Cobb and Welker, there is no comparison...

I somewhat agree with you on this.  I think without question, Randall Cobb was in Welker's ballpark in 2014.  Since then, he's been battling injuries and he's not been as good as Welker, or even as good as the 2014 version of himself the past 2 years.  He's still young enough that he can bounce back though.

Welker really was an exceptional slot guy from '07-12.  Cobb was exceptional for only 1 season so I think Welker has a pretty good edge on him in my book at this point.  That said, Cobb is young enough to make it back to 2014 levels if he can find away to stay away from injuries.  If Cobb has another year like last year though and doesn't make it back to former level of play... he becomes expendable. 

What you're trying to say is if Cobb catches an absolute **** load of shallow crossing patterns for 7 and 8 yards per pop without actually adding anything in the way of TDs he'll be in the upper reserved pantheon of Wes Welker territory. Because that's what we're talking about here. An average of 25 yards per game over six years is the only thing that separates these two. 

Geezus **** me I give up. 

El-Kofi-Amichia posted:

Goalline is drunk in the morning again

You say that as though it's a bad thing.

Or that it wasn't common knowledge.

ChilliJon posted:

Music City posted:

ChilliJon posted:

Wes Welker is a good side by side comp. with Cobb. Same height/weight/speed. Used pretty much the same way. Was never the primary reciever. And Wes played the majority of his career with Brady and Manning. So the QB comp is there as well.

Dude, I don't understand- Wes Welker surpassed 1000 yards 5 times, over 100 catches 5 times. In what way exactly is the comparison valid? Cobb had one year- his contract year- where he had a Welker-like season.

Welker's '07-'12 seasons were among the most prolific and productive 6 seasons for a WR in NFL history. If you want to compare Cobb and Welker, there is no comparison...

Cobb plays 12 years and he'll surpass all of Welkers numbers.  Welker averaged 11 yards per reception for his career. Cobb is at 12.3 right now. Seriously man. They are the same reciever. "Most prolific and productive 6 seasons for a WR in NFL history" Geezus fuk. 

Wes Welker's career was shortened by concussions. But in the 6 year time span when he was healthy and playing for the Patriots (he only had one somewhat productive season in DEN, and was out of the league 2 years later), he had one of the most productive stretches for WRs in NFL history.  

From '07-'12 he averaged 112 catches, 1245 yards, and 6 TDs. While TDs favors Cobb, Walker averaged over 6 seasons what Cobb was only able to do in one. In what fuc*ing planet does that say "valid comparison???

Incidentally, Cobb's injury issues the last 2 seasons resemble what Welker produced his final 3 seasons. Cobb can get back to being productive and salvage things, and he's certainly younger than Welker was in that epic stretch he had, but since he signed the deal his production has been commensurately bad, and trying to compare him to Wes Welker is pretty fuc*ing stupid. 

But yes, you're right... 12 seasons of Cobb getting 70 catches and 720 yards would really make him Wes Welker. Of course another 2 seasons of that level of production and he won't be in Green Bay, but then he can retire one of the Packers all time almost good players, right there with Javon Walker!

Why are we comparing black wide receivers to white wide receivers in the first place?  

I don't see colors.

As far as I'm concerned, all players are green.

But why are all cornerbacks dark green?

Darrell?

El-Kofi-Amichia posted:

Why are we comparing black wide receivers to white wide receivers in the first place?  

No time for Micah Hyde quotes right now. 

Wes Welker did two things exceptionally well between 2007-2012. 

1. He ran a great 5 yard crossing pattern while everyone else went with Randy Moss. 

2. He ran a great 5 yard crossing pattern while everyone else went with Gronk and Aaron Hernandez. 

He loaded up on receptions and turned those into anything between 5 and 13 yards. His TD total doesn't match his receptions and yards because that crossing route doesn't play as well inside the 10 yard line. It's what New England does. Kind of like what Julian Edelman's been doing since Wes left for Denver. You drop Cobb in that system he's going to be used the same way and probably puts up similar numbers. Green Bay runs a different offense with different route concepts. Cobb has done well in that system as well. 

I'm not making the argument Cobb is a great reciever. I don't think Welker was a great reciever. I think both are good recievers. I think Welker put up a **** load of receptions with a marginal yards per receptions because his skill set was perfect for what NE was running. 

This dust up started when I questioned Cobb's contract being questioned. That's what this is really about. If Cobb plays out his contract. Gets to 40-45 TDs and 6,000 yards and goes on his way with $43 million from GB that isn't an insane amount given the market rate for WRs in 2017 with the increase in the salary cap. 

"2. He ran a great 5 yard crossing pattern while everyone else went with Gronk and Aaron Hernandez. "

I remember this one time Hernandez left him hanging.

Too soon?

You can only make that joke after Bed Bath and Beyond introduces the Aaron Hernandez bed sheet collection. Then it's fair game. 

Some additional considerations in the Cobb vs Welker pissing match:

NE has had the benefit of playing in a weak division specifically, and likely against a weaker level of competition in general. Who wouldn't want to play against the Bills/Jets/Dolphins twice each season? As a result, game plans could be wildly different, affording Welker opportunities that Cobb didn't have.

Injuries. Not to the individual players, but across the offense. Can't forget the RB debacle of 2 years ago and the resultant affect on the passing game. Or when Bulaga had his annual injury and we had to sub in Barclay, then shuffle the OL when that failed. How about when Rodgers missed half a year?

Defense. Play calls are bound to be different when a team is up by 20 as opposed to being down by 20. Fatigue factors in when an opponent can score in 2 to 3 minute drives consistently.

In summary, there's much, much more that plays into stats than just the players themselves.

Wonder what NE's record in the 6 yearly games against the Bears, Lions and Vikes would be?

Probably eerily similar to Green Bay's. 

ChilliJon posted:

El-Kofi-Amichia posted:

Why are we comparing black wide receivers to white wide receivers in the first place?  

1. He ran a great 5 yard crossing pattern while everyone else went with Randy Moss. 

2. He ran a great 5 yard crossing pattern while everyone else went with Gronk and Aaron Hernandez. 

He loaded up on receptions and turned those into anything between 5 and 13 yards. His TD total doesn't match his receptions and yards because that crossing route doesn't play as well inside the 10 yard line. It's what New England does. Kind of like what Julian Edelman's been doing since Wes left for Denver. You drop Cobb in that system he's going to be used the same way and probably puts up similar numbers. Green Bay runs a different offense with different route concepts. Cobb has done well in that system as well. 

 

Ok, so we do actually agree that there isn't a comparison between the two. One was extremely productive in one system, the other not so much in another. And if you tell the truth, you'd take Julian Edelman/Wes Welker production over what Cobb has done in his career in a heartbeat, every day, and twice on Sunday. 

The original point I made is that Cobb is being paid to be a helluva lot more than what he's producing. All the "he's great in meetings" and "but Jordy was hurt" excuses don't fly. Cobb is being paid to be, if not an elite WR, at least a highly productive one. He hasn't been for 2 years. If he fails to produce this year, there should be no condescending "people just don't get it" incredulity in Packer land. We should all expect him to be gone.

And the cupboard is not going to be bare if that happens- the pipeline has been filled, and one or two of them is all they need to work out a replacement. 

The two primary things I want in a WR? Touchdowns, first downs and YPC. Number of catches is really nice if it includes those. Weaker was a really good chain mover, but poor in the other two. 

'I would take Walker over Cobb but I don't think he is that much better.

Why does Music City have the uncanny ability to be smart, generally correct, well spoken and at the same time, so unlikeable?

We are all jealous of him.

Goalline posted:

The two primary things I want in a WR? Touchdowns, first downs and YPC. Number of catches is really nice if it includes those. Weaker was a really good chain mover, but poor in the other two. 

'I would take Walker over Cobb but I don't think he is that much better.

Weaker or Walker they both suck....unless of course they played for GB.

Blair Kiel posted:

Why does Music City have the uncanny ability to be smart, generally correct, well spoken and at the same time, so unlikeable?

$hit, save for the smart, generally correct, and well spoken descriptors, he's a dead ringer for you.

Does we mean you have a mouse in your pocket? 

No big boy, I've got something else in my pocket for you.