Poz/Neg Packers Broncos

Boris posted:

If the Packers hold their opponent under 20, they're going to win a LOT more than they lose. 

Of course we all want to see 2011 version of the offense. Still have plenty to work on but scoring 27 points on any team except maybe the Dolphins is pretty good for a so called "bad offense."

And one big piece that's been missing for years is field position. Rather than 70-90 yard drives, the punter thus far has flipped fields consistently. The turnover 5 yards from the end zone was huge in this game. We can all agree the offense is taking longer than anyone would like, but this is what good teams are about. Picking up a unit when it struggles. So now, instead of long fields that end drives and put our defense in bad positions, our defense and ST are setting tone of their own accord. I have no issue whatsoever if Rodgers and company obtained a ring the way Peyton did in Denver. Or for that matter Dilfer and Brad Johnson. They all count. 

artis posted:

Boris posted:

If the Packers hold their opponent under 20, they're going to win a LOT more than they lose. 

Of course we all want to see 2011 version of the offense. Still have plenty to work on but scoring 27 points on any team except maybe the Dolphins is pretty good for a so called "bad offense."

And one big piece that's been missing for years is field position. Rather than 70-90 yard drives, the punter thus far has flipped fields consistently. The turnover 5 yards from the end zone was huge in this game. We can all agree the offense is taking longer than anyone would like, but this is what good teams are about. Picking up a unit when it struggles. So now, instead of long fields that end drives and put our defense in bad positions, our defense and ST are setting tone of their own accord. I have no issue whatsoever if Rodgers and company obtained a ring the way Peyton did in Denver. Or for that matter Dilfer and Brad Johnson. They all count. 

Abso-fugging-lutely....

~Cliff Burton

People talk about Rodgers as if being great is just a matter of time.  

He hasn't been great for a few years now.  Right now he's just an average QB that sees ghosts, under throws / over throws receivers, etc.  Let's hope he gets it together.

We don't want you to be right.

Pakrz posted:

Right now he's just an average QB 

Yup "average QB" definitely has an average arm too.

https://youtu.be/mBbbKAIVU5U

There's 28 or 29 other teams that would want this "Average" QB.

Pos after 3 games kevin king, Bryan bulaga, and aaron jones are still healthy. 

Neg. Offense cant sustain anything due to drops, penalties and cant convert 3rd downs. 

Pakrz posted:

People talk about Rodgers as if being great is just a matter of time.  

He hasn't been great for a few years now.  Right now he's just an average QB that sees ghosts, under throws / over throws receivers, etc.  Let's hope he gets it together.

I get what you're saying, but average QB's occasionally turn the ball over.   See Capt. Kirk for an example.   

We are accustom to all time greatness so when he plays just better than average but not great, we are disappointed.    He is not playing to his standards, but it's still better than average.   

I don't know if we will see that elite play ever again, but if we build a championship D around him and he is top 10, that's good enough. 

Give him 2 more playmakers on O and he'll be more than elite. 

Player that I think would slide perfectly into this offense and have an immediate impact, lessen the stress and attention on Adams, fit perfectly between Adams and MVS, give Rodgers a great option from the slot, wouldn't break the trade bank....

Emmanuel Sanders. 

Would Denver trade him?? That would surprise me.

DH13 posted:

Give him 2 more playmakers on O and he'll be more than elite. 

Yup. I saw Rodgers flash a couple times yesterday. After Thursday, I expect no more rust (aka pre-season playtime is ovaaahhh boyyy).

Lots to work on & much left to accomplish. Great start!

I dunno, previous gb teams would have found a way to lose, I remember vividly, 'stealing defeat from the jaws of victory' - this team just feels different, they want to win and they are having fun at least on d.  maybe its time to stop relying on AR to be the elite qb we know, maybe he has to be more of a game manager type guy and win with d.  john kuhn asked z  why baltimore was so successful, he said, everyone knew deep down, the d had to ball and that would be good enough...hmmm. maybe he's on to something.  i know you can see in ar's face, its tough for him not to be the best, but maybe that's just where we are now.  stack the w's and the rest will take care of itself.

My quick Rodgers take. I think he's bought 100% into the new system. He's just not playing QB like we're familiar with seeing from him. He looks like he's not seeing what he expects to see (or should see) and the ball is going into the ground. Tells me he's listening to MLF and gets the ball out of his hands fast come hell or high water.  JMO but MLF does not want to see Rodgers holding the ball taking sacks. Even with the on again / off again play this year his entire demeanor is different this year compared to the salty pissed off guy the last few years. Like he knows it's actually on him to play better. 

I'm also willing to finally admit GB needs a fast upgrade / playmaker at WR. Specifically from the slot. If MVS can move to the slot then AJ Green is absolutely an option. I have no idea where 2018 Geronimo went but he's going in the wrong direction fast. Question is, is MVS a slot receiver? I'd hate to screw with him and move him inside when he's starting to get comfortable outside. 

Pakrz posted:

People talk about Rodgers as if being great is just a matter of time.  

He hasn't been great for a few years now.  Right now he's just an average QB that sees ghosts, under throws / over throws receivers, etc.  Let's hope he gets it together.

In 2016 he finished with a 104 rating and carried his team to the NFCC. He followed that year up by being out most of a season with a collarbone injury despite putting up another 103 rating with a 4-2 record to that point, and followed that year up by posting a rating >100 in 8/16 games despite having a broken leg, 3 rookie receivers, no TE, a lame duck coach that was fired during the season and a team around him that just wasn't playing well overall. I'm as critical of Rodgers as anyone when he fucks up, but let's not pretend he's anything but a great QB and is the problem right now. Brady and Brees are 3/4 deep with quality receivers who do their job, Rodgers has 1 (Adams) and sometimes 2 (MVS) who are helping him out consistently by getting open and catching the ball. Gute made a mistake letting Cobb walk, especially for the price, and needs to explore options to get even 1 more quality WR in place. Kumerow, Tonyan and Shepard look like promising players, but at best they're players who could be good #3/4 options. Neither is THE answer to the issue...we need a #1 who can get open, take pressure of Adams and Rodgers, and open things up for guys like MVS, Graham, Allison, etc. 

I don’t see MVS as a slot receiver. Sheppard or last years ESB maybe but not MVS. It might hurt the team in other areas but Adams would be great in the slot. At the beginning of this year I thought that maybe Allison or Kumerow could man that position as well. But not as of late. So unless someone improves, that position will be in question. Rodgers really liked Cobb in that position but this is a new scheme on offense and newish players trying to figure things out.

I'm hearing you on Rodgers... My point is that Rodgers set his own bar of being an elite football player.  He was as good as we've ever seen across the NFL landscape.  There seems to be an expectation by some that the light is just going to flip on and Rodgers will all of a sudden be elite again.  I can't agree with that.

I think those days may be over.  New coaches, new scheme, a surrounding cast that could be better, etc.  All of those factors are true and play a role.  None of them cause him to feel pressure that isn't there or miss open targets.  That's all on him.  He will also be 36 soon.

Calling Rodgers "average" was probably a bit much.  However, on the spectrum of him being a game manager versus a playmaker, he might be a little bit closer to a game manager than many want to to admit.  

I would love to see Kumerow more, but he can't help if he's injured.

https://packerswire.usatoday.c...inactive-vs-broncos/

The worm burners I saw yesterday looked intentional because the guy the ball was supposed to go to, on time, was covered.  There was a sequence late in the third quarter where I counted at least 4 plays that looked like they were designed to be quick hitters, timing passes that were just not open and AR had to throw away or peel off and scan for something else.  Which didn't materialize.  This was a perfect case for why so many people's "we need more quick timing passes" is not a cure all.  Defenses actually can stop those plays too. 

The play calling can't just be about certain types of plays.  It needs to have a strategy where certain plays set up other plays.  Of course you need a minimum of those plays to work.  For MLF it sounds like the running plays are the critical plays that need some minimum of success before anything else can work.  Their running game has been up and down, as has the offense.  It's that and/or our WR's just aren't getting separation.  Adams only had 4 catches yesterday.  Neglected or triple covered?

If defenses are committing that much to 17 then somebody else really needs to step the f up.  MVS flashes and then disappears.  They need a guy who can get open in tight spaces and they need a TE that can get open, well anywhere.  I don't care if it's a 5yd pop pass or 15yds down the seam.  Find something!  

Positives:  They won in a game that could have been a trap game after the big wins against the Bores and Spermheads.

Running the ball.  MLF is true to his word he will run the ball and not give up on it.

Defense!  you all know my constant griping about the defense the last few years but damn that defense can play.  They are having fun and are motivated and confident THANK YOU angry bald man!

Negatives:  missed tackles.  That isnt something you can keep doing it will hurt downt the road

The offense looked good in spurts and they will get it together.  I think they have been working out the kinks while playing against some pretty stout defenses.

Pakrz posted:

People talk about Rodgers as if being great is just a matter of time.  

He hasn't been great for a few years now.  Right now he's just an average QB that sees ghosts, under throws / over throws receivers, etc.  Let's hope he gets it together.

Might want to factor in injury and the shit defense and horseshit oline.  Other than that, spot on. 

Reposting this...

+++Gary gets 1st sack.

Rodgers takes no sacks.

---

Ditto

Bring on the Iggles! 

+++ Our Defense can play. Gary gets his 1st sack as a Packer and recovers a fumble; Savage The Fast One gets his 1st INT as a Packer; Alexander can cover anyone! What a great pick up he has been. The Smiths' Sack Machine, Inc. One sack for Zaderious and 3 for Preston. What great additions they have proven to be. Nice job, Gute! Six sacks on the day for the Packers! We protected the ball very well, again. No turnovers! 3-0!!! On to Thursday night! GO PACK, GO!!!

--- ARod passing to the turf on several occasions; Jimmy Graham being mostly invisible. I don't think I heard his name called once; Mason Crosby misses a FG, late. Not good for him as Gute brought in competition for his roster spot to try to "scare" him into performing better. My money is on Gute drafting a Kicker next draft. If so, Crosby could be playing in his last season as a Packer. Crosby making that last FG would have taken a lot of pressure off our Defense; Reddit stream being three plays behind the radio broadcast with Wayne and Larry. I cut off the stream and listened to Wayne and Larry; The somewhat bogus officiating call when Savage made his INT and got up and ran for about 14 yards after and the officials did not give the Packers the yardage Savage gained on his INT. Supposedly they had ruled the play dead so Savage did not get credited for the yards after the INT. Seems like a bogus call to me. Wayne Larrivee noted it, as well.

I heard Graham's name once.

Called for holding.

I don't think he magically will come out one week and just be 2011 Rodgers, I don't think he will ever be that player again. From 2012-2014 he elevated the play of guys around him tremendously, he made guys like Andrew Quarless and Jarrett Boykin look like competent players. Those days are gone, we have a different QB now, but he's still great in a different way and I think this offense will hum when all 11 are getting it done. I think there were and will continue to be some growing pains and some miscommunications, especially playing 3 very good defenses, but if this team doesn't reach the ultimate goal I don't think it will be because Rodgers wasn't good enough or not as great as in the past. We forget that our SB year was maybe like his 7th or 8th best season (statistically) as a pro with double digit INTs, but he had a lot of talent around him that stepped up in critical times. He's getting zero help from people not named Adams or MVS right now. 

My older boys went to high school with Danny Vitale, so we were screaming for him to get that TD. He’s quickly becoming a locker room favorite, as evidenced by Rodgers’ comments after the game, and a fan favorite. Hope he continues his play- the kind of guy you root for.

Unpossible...

A common theme I've heard through 3 weeks from the offensive players in post game interviews, "need to execute better... plays are there... keep grinding".

Pont is, as CJ inferred, AR and the offense is bought into the scheme, they just need to execute better. 

With the limited preseason snaps I like the progress made on offense through 3 weeks, against 3 top 10 defenses. Being 3-0 probably influences my perspective. 

This comment from DH13 is another example, in my opinion, of being bought in to the scheme but the execution is lacking.

"The worm burners I saw yesterday looked intentional because the guy the ball was supposed to go to, on time, was covered.  There was a sequence late in the third quarter where I counted at least 4 plays that looked like they were designed to be quick hitters, timing passes that were just not open and AR had to throw away or peel off and scan for something else."

Lastly, Rodgers was absolutely giddy in is his presser with regard to not being hit, sacked, roughed up. Said he felt physically great which is significant on the short week.

Now go beat Philly.

Gotta be 1 and 0h, to get to 4 and 0h.

I get that Rodgers needs to play better, but other than Mahomes what other QB would give them a better chance to win this year? Look at who else is starting just in the NFC North. Cousins, Trubisky, and Stafford and those three teams invested almost as much in those guys as we have in Rodgers (Cousins and Stafford by cap hit and Trubisky by giving up multiple high draft picks to move up ONE spot). Part of being a truly elite NFL QB is knowing when to play within the system so as not to be the reason you lose a game when your defense is good enough to win them for you.  

Grave Digger posted:

I don't think he magically will come out one week and just be 2011 Rodgers, I don't think he will ever be that player again. From 2012-2014 he elevated the play of guys around him tremendously, he made guys like Andrew Quarless and Jarrett Boykin look like competent players. Those days are gone, we have a different QB now, but he's still great in a different way and I think this offense will hum when all 11 are getting it done. I think there were and will continue to be some growing pains and some miscommunications, especially playing 3 very good defenses, but if this team doesn't reach the ultimate goal I don't think it will be because Rodgers wasn't good enough or not as great as in the past. We forget that our SB year was maybe like his 7th or 8th best season (statistically) as a pro with double digit INTs, but he had a lot of talent around him that stepped up in critical times. He's getting zero help from people not named Adams or MVS right now. 

I would agree with others that they need to add talent on the offensive side of the ball. It's been neglected in order to build what looks like a championship caliber defense. There is not a single starter (or contributor for that matter since Tramon was gone for a few years before he returned) on defense who was here from before the 2016 season. They've added the two Smiths and Amos as big-money free agents, appear to have hit it big on three first round picks on defense in that time frame (Kenny Clark, Savage, and Alexander), and have gotten great contributions from mid-round picks as well (Lowry and Martinez). That doesn't even consider the high round picks they've spent on guys that may eventually grow into being major contributors if they haven't already (King, M. Adams, Josh Jackson and Gary). 

Contrast with what they've done on offense. They've added one big money free agent who is over the hill/constantly banged up (Graham). Other than Davante Adams, they've drafted three skill position guys in the last EIGHT drafts in the top 3 rounds and those guys are all gone (Eddie Lacy, RichRod, and Ty Montgomery). Before Jenkins this year, they've drafted 1 offensive lineman in the last 6 drafts in the top 3 rounds and he should have been cut after the first training camp (Spriggs). You can get guys after the top 3 rounds that are major contributors (Bakh, A. Jones, Tretter), but they are less likely to be difference makers. Who was the last player the Packers added on offense that is a threat to make the Pro Bowl? Their Pro Bowl candidates are D. Adams, Rodgers, Bahk, and Jones. 

At the kill positions they have two good RBs, one elite WR, a bunch of replacement-level TEs, one WR (MVS) who could eventually be an above average #2 or #3 WR, and then a bunch of WRs that are not ever going to be starting caliber. Their four other WRs are undrafted free agents. Kumerow is a great story, but he's been hanging around the league on practice squads for 5 years. He was with New England for a while and even Belichick didn't see enough in him to keep him around. He looks great in preseason because he's a consummate professional who looks great against backup DBs because he's optimized his abilities by learning how to run great routes. 

That is painfully accurate on Kumerow.

DH13 posted:

The worm burners I saw yesterday looked intentional because the guy the ball was supposed to go to, on time, was covered.  There was a sequence late in the third quarter where I counted at least 4 plays that looked like they were designed to be quick hitters, timing passes that were just not open and AR had to throw away or peel off and scan for something else.  Which didn't materialize.  This was a perfect case for why so many people's "we need more quick timing passes" is not a cure all.  Defenses actually can stop those plays too. 

Yep, they were clearly intentional. Rodgers was not trying to complete those passes that ended up in the dirt. Just moving on to the next play. Can't have it both ways - you want him to get rid of the ball, then there's going to be times where that quick target is covered and you move on. 

I think if the OL can string together a few more games like yesterday you will start to see Rodgers trust his protection more and step up into the pocket more often than bailing out and going left or right. 

mrtundra posted:

; Jimmy Graham being mostly invisible. I don't think I heard his name called once; 

I did. For the penalty.

Second straight game for Graham without a reception (believe that's a career first). Like most of what Gutey's done but Graham is a notable exception. He's compounded his mistake by hanging onto him.

DH13 posted:

That is painfully accurate on Kumerow.

I'll only agree when he fails when given a chance in the regular season. till then, that's just a theory.

Like Janis?

DH13 posted:

Like Janis?

Janis was never this good in preseason.

Maybe he wasn't given the opportunity?

https://www.wbay.com/content/n...nning-561087631.html

I think Demowsky sums it up well.

DH13 posted:

The worm burners I saw yesterday looked intentional because the guy the ball was supposed to go to, on time, was covered.  There was a sequence late in the third quarter where I counted at least 4 plays that looked like they were designed to be quick hitters, timing passes that were just not open and AR had to throw away or peel off and scan for something else.  Which didn't materialize.  This was a perfect case for why so many people's "we need more quick timing passes" is not a cure all.  Defenses actually can stop those plays too. 

The play calling can't just be about certain types of plays.  It needs to have a strategy where certain plays set up other plays.  Of course you need a minimum of those plays to work.  For MLF it sounds like the running plays are the critical plays that need some minimum of success before anything else can work.  Their running game has been up and down, as has the offense.  It's that and/or our WR's just aren't getting separation.  Adams only had 4 catches yesterday.  Neglected or triple covered?

If defenses are committing that much to 17 then somebody else really needs to step the f up.  MVS flashes and then disappears.  They need a guy who can get open in tight spaces and they need a TE that can get open, well anywhere.  I don't care if it's a 5yd pop pass or 15yds down the seam.  Find something!  

I saw the same thing, they were intentional and they were thrown quickly.  There was definitely some booing in the stands. My thought at the time as I watched was that maybe he feels a bit handcuffed by the limitations on his improvisation and looking for the big play, and he was going to other extreme, almost pouting,  when the quick hitter was not there.  I agree with GraveDigger's earlier post saying we should have not let Cobb go.  There was this consensus that he had lost a step and had a lot of wear and tear, but he is still under 30 and has always been a security blanket for Rodgers.  As fans, we tend to get really high on the receivers we see in the preseason, who play against scrub DB's.  We worry about how awful it would be to see someone like Lazard or Shepherd get cut, and we overvalue who we think are the 2 through 4 receivers on this roster.  I don't think Allison is the talent we may have thought he was, and I think MVS WILL be, but he is still growing and is not consistent.  Adams and Rodgers definitely need another threat for this offense to start humming again....and it's not going to be Graham.  

Kumerow might have more connections on and off the field than anyone I've ever seen. 

From Wikipedia

Kumerow is the son of former Miami Dolphins linebacker Eric Kumerow. He is also the nephew of former Dolphins defensive end John Bosa, and therefore a cousin to John's sons, Los Angeles Chargers defensive end Joey Bosa and San Francisco 49ers defensive end Nick Bosa.^[18] His sister Cortney was an All-American basketball player at their alma mater, University of Wisconsin-Whitewater; and their youngest brother, Derek, is currently enrolled and will play football for Whitewater.

He is also the great-grandson of Chicago mob boss Tony Accardo.^[18]

DH13 posted:

Maybe he wasn't given the opportunity?

Yep, just like Abbrederis.

These guys could still be playing instead of selling tires and whatnot if the Packers just gave them a chance.