Rodgers realizes what lies ahead

quote:

Originally posted by Point Brewmaster:
[ An interesting thing about Young, however, is that it wasn't until his seventh year in the NFL that he finally started a game (although he did start a couple of seasons in the USFL). You could say Steve Young had twice as long to be groomed as Rodgers did. Young also got more playing experience as Montana was injured numerous times.

Pretty sure Young started most of his first couple years in the NFL....with the Bucs.

As for the topic, I think most folks are confident in Rodgers ability and intelligence. But if you think he will be as saavy with his pre-snap reads for coverrage and protection as a seasoned vet, you are dreaming. I won't be surprised to see our offensive production drop just a bit and sacks go up....until he settles in. High Wonderlic or not !!

quote:

Originally posted by Packdog:
Pretty sure Young started most of his first couple years in the NFL....with the Bucs.

I was going off his stats from NFL.com. Maybe their starting stats don't go back that far.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
Personally, I've never heard anyone question Favre's intelligence or suggest he wasn't bright. Yeah, he was generally described as an aw shucks Southern boy, but nobody ever suggested he wasn't smart enough to pick up the WCO. Until now, anyway. This idea that he's heading to the Hall of Fame essentially on natural ability alone is ludicrous. But hey, that IS your agenda, so fine.

I never said Brett wasn't smart enough to pick up the offense. I said Rodgers is smarter and I doubt anyone who is honest would debate that. Will that mean "better" I don't know.

Obviously, Favre's experience was incredibly helpful for all the reasons others with his agenda on their minds have stated.

I will never say Favre was stupid, or not bright. He was never praised for his intelligence...ever. He is going to the Hall based on his ungodly natural ability. You think he's going because he was mechanically sound. It was said many times that you would not pull out a tape of Brett Favre when trying to show a young QB how to play the game. Brett had his own street ball style that somehow meshed with the WCO. I think he would've failed in any other offense. He certainly isn't going into the Hall as a guy who came to every OTA and training camp because he cared that much about learning and improving. As far as I'm concerned, he's in Allen Iverson's league. Practice? We're talking about practice? He is going on his natural tools.

Saying Brett forced balls to Koren Robinson leaves me speechless. How many times did Brett throw to him? I probably could count that on both my hands.

So, now James Jones has an anti-Favre bent? I'm amazed by such statements.

We shall see how much of our success was from the QB position last season. Undoubtedly, Brett had one of his very best seasons, well, regular seasons anyway. I'm curious to see how much drop off, if any, we see with Rodgers.

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
So, now James Jones has an anti-Favre bent? I'm amazed by such statements.

I'm amazed that you thought he was serious.

The Koren Robinson/James Jones stuff was a joke on my part, in reference to a few comments posted here a while back from people who believe that in fact Jones' numbers declined later in the season because Favre was freezing him out at Robinson's expense.

Favre's playoff game against Seattle was top-notch. The Giants game obviously was not.

You said, "Rodgers is a bright guy. Was Favre ever thought of in that regard? No." The dots aren't that tough or unreasonable to connect.

My opinion, and it's just that, is that your essential belief is that any good Favre ever did was a result of his natural talent. I think the implication is pretty obvious. Actually, your comment "he is going on his natural tools," is fairly straightforward. BTW, I never said the guy was mechanically sound, but if making stuff up helps your argument, fine. But scores of NFL players have incredible natural talent. A select few make it to the Hall of Fame. Your view, stated or implied, is misguided. In my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
The Koren Robinson/James Jones stuff was a joke on my part, in reference to a few comments posted here a while back from people who believe that in fact Jones' numbers declined later in the season because Favre was freezing him out at Robinson's expense.

Favre's playoff game against Seattle was top-notch. The Giants game obviously was not.

You said, "Rodgers is a bright guy. Was Favre ever thought of in that regard? No." The dots aren't that tough or unreasonable to connect.

My opinion, and it's just that, is that your essential belief is that any good Favre ever did was a result of his natural talent. I think the implication is pretty obvious. Actually, your comment "he is going on his natural tools," is fairly straightforward. BTW, I never said the guy was mechanically sound, but if making stuff up helps your argument, fine. But scores of NFL players have incredible natural talent. A select few make it to the Hall of Fame. Your view, stated or implied, is misguided. In my opinion.

Nail meet hammer.

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:

Was Favre ever thought of in that regard? No.

I can name a ton of QBs who had a boatload of natural talent but ended up highly ineffective in the NFL. Sounds to me like intelligence might actually be the wild card for success?

Brak: I have it on good authority that Jones knew that Brett thought Jennings was ignorant of the fact that Driver wanted to discern what kind of pizza Rodgers was going to order for his house parties once Brett was dumped by TT. I sense a conspiracy - Brett/Pizza Hut vs TT/Rodgers! Oh the humanity!

How soon until you say that we are all dumb and agree to keep watch from a distance?

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
How soon until you say that we are all dumb and agree to keep watch from a distance?

Yep, that worked so well last year.


I'm still waiting for my promised comeuppance, but at least the coffee has been arriving in a timely fashion.

I think it was MNCheese (forgive me if I am crediting the wrong person) who first identified the pattern,

Innocuous comments, followed by
Inflammatory comments, followed by
indignation, followed by
Watching over us from a distance.

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
I think it was MNCheese (forgive me if I am crediting the wrong person) who first identified the pattern,

Innocuous comments, followed by
Inflammatory comments, followed by
indignation, followed by
Watching over us from a distance.

Like a template.

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
I think it was MNCheese (forgive me if I am crediting the wrong person) who first identified the pattern,

Innocuous comments, followed by
Inflammatory comments, followed by
indignation, followed by
Watching over us from a distance.

That's a good analysis. It's spot on like my analysis of Favre's intelligence vs. Rodgers.

I love how posts are popping up about guys with natural ability who failed. Really? Guys with natural ability don't always make it? Thank you.

Favre was not mechanically sound. He was unorthodox in almost everything he did. Who wants to debate that? Favre lived off the broke down play where he himself created it. Am I wrong? Did Brett earn his rep from being a consistent WCO QB? No.

Favre was a "gun slinger". I don't see any hint of intelligence in a gun slinger. A gun slinger lives on the edge, throws caution to the wind and has to be naturally gifted or he dies/fails.

I, for one, am thrilled that mentality is gone from our QB. That's all I'm saying. I'm glad Rodgers is there. I think he's better mentally equipped to handle the position and make better decisions.

We'll see in September. I know in the one really good comparison we had he outplayed Favre in Dallas. Had he been in there from the get go we may have actually won that game. The other games he was in relief he was equally as terrible as Brett.

I do like Rodgers and was tired of Favre about 5 years ago. Why is that wrong? Did you enjoy the 4-12 season and his 30+ ints? I didn't.

indignation.

1 step away

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:
indignation.

1 step away

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I will never say Favre was stupid, or not bright.

"A" (Favre) does not equal "B" (stupid, not bright).

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
Favre was a "gun slinger".

"A" (Favre) = "C" (a gunslinger).

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I don't see any hint of intelligence in a gun slinger.

"C" (gunslinger) = "B" (no hint of intelligence).


So A = C, and C = B, and yet B does not equal A.

quote:

Originally posted by Brak:

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
So, now James Jones has an anti-Favre bent? I'm amazed by such statements.

I'm amazed that you thought he was serious.

Amazed? I'm not shocked or even surprised.

quote:

Originally posted by rastapackermon:
I can name a ton of QBs who had a boatload of natural talent but ended up highly ineffective in the NFL.

Name ONE...besides Todd Marinovich, Jeff George, Kordell Stewart or David Carr, that is.

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:

quote:

Originally posted by rastapackermon:
I can name a ton of QBs who had a boatload of natural talent but ended up highly ineffective in the NFL.

Name ONE...besides Todd Marinovich, Jeff George, Kordell Stewart or David Carr, that is.

Dan McGwire, Kyle Boller, David Klingler, Todd Blackledge, Mike Vick, Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, Andre Ware, Steve Walsh, Kelly Stouffer, Marc Wilson, Jack Thompson, and RICH CAMPBELL! Daunte Culpepper.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I will never say Favre was stupid, or not bright.

"A" (Favre) does not equal "B" (stupid, not bright).

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
Favre was a "gun slinger".

"A" (Favre) = "C" (a gunslinger).

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I don't see any hint of intelligence in a gun slinger.

"C" (gunslinger) = "B" (no hint of intelligence).


So A = C, and C = B, and yet B does not equal A.

I'm placing a call to Good Will Hunting... Perhaps, he can solve your "proof".

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I'm placing a call to Good Will Hunting... Perhaps, he can solve your "proof".

Yeah, you do that. In the meantime, I'll see if I can't Ouija Norman Einstein to provide proofs for the ridiculous theories you throw around. I think I'll start with "why is James Jones considered a master of the WCO".

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:

quote:

Originally posted by rastapackermon:
I can name a ton of QBs who had a boatload of natural talent but ended up highly ineffective in the NFL.

Name ONE...besides Todd Marinovich, Jeff George, Kordell Stewart or David Carr, that is.

Dan McGwire, Kyle Boller, David Klingler, Todd Blackledge, Mike Vick, Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, Andre Ware, Steve Walsh, Kelly Stouffer, Marc Wilson, Jack Thompson, and RICH CAMPBELL! Daunte Culpepper.

Goalline. I think you need to have CoP define "tallant".

All the so called QB's he listed have NO talent in my book

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:

quote:

Originally posted by rastapackermon:
I can name a ton of QBs who had a boatload of natural talent but ended up highly ineffective in the NFL.

Name ONE...besides Todd Marinovich, Jeff George, Kordell Stewart or David Carr, that is.

Dan McGwire, Kyle Boller, David Klingler, Todd Blackledge, Mike Vick, Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, Andre Ware, Steve Walsh, Kelly Stouffer, Marc Wilson, Jack Thompson, and RICH CAMPBELL! Daunte Culpepper.

Ummm....thanks....I think......

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I will never say Favre was stupid, or not bright.

"A" (Favre) does not equal "B" (stupid, not bright).

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
Favre was a "gun slinger".

"A" (Favre) = "C" (a gunslinger).

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I don't see any hint of intelligence in a gun slinger.

"C" (gunslinger) = "B" (no hint of intelligence).


So A = C, and C = B, and yet B does not equal A.

Anyone have Pythagoras on Speed Dial?

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I'm placing a call to Good Will Hunting... Perhaps, he can solve your "proof".

You do have everyone's number in boxes in your garage.

Does Matt Damon take it black or with cream?

I expect Rodgers to be BETTER than Favre. Yeah, Favre's a HOF'er and three-time MVP, but I don't think he necessarily even cared what defense was called on any given play. Favre played on adrenalin. I think that a consistent performer will always be more successful than a "home run" hitter. Favre took alot of chances and made alot of plays, but also made horrendous gaffes. I think Rodgers will play more "within the system," and will have more success.
Will Rodgers be a three-time MVP? I'm not saying that. Favre did have some amazing years. But overall, throughout his career, he was a gambler. I will always take fewer big plays if it includes fewer mistakes. That's the formula for success. I think that's what Rodgers will bring to the table, thanks to MM.
I expect Rodgers to be elite.
Is Rodgers "smarter" than Favre? Well, Favre was a cagey veteran, and he could raley the guys on his team to fight extra hard for him. Rodgers will have to develop that. But Rodgers' ability to perform calmly under pressure is going to be a huge breath of fresh air for Packers fans.
Remember those games in Dallas, where Favre was SO hyped up at the beginning of the game, that he'd overthrow his backs in the flat, "due to the crown of the field?" I just think Rodgers will make far, far fewer mistakes. Fewer big plays, but fewer mistakes. He will be much more CONSISTENT.
He will have weapons, too. That's another huge factor. And I think MM's system will look even better with a guy who's playing more within it.

I thought I was missing a few beers

quote:

I can name a ton of QBs who had a boatload of natural talent but ended up highly ineffective in the NFL. Sounds to me like intelligence might actually be the wild card for success?

I personally wouldn't select a QB that scored in the single digits on the Wonderlic, if that's what you mean.

The problem is that I don't think that was an issue with Favre- he scored like a 20 or someting like that (average for that type of test). I know Rodgers scored "better" and that's fine, but this idea that Favre is a complete idot is way off base.

Favre made some questionable decisions, he took a lot of risks, and he made his share of mistakes, but you don't play as long as he did (understanding all of those complex defenses and the WCO) without having a decent level of intelligence.

I'm excited for Rodgers like most of us but this topic has gotten off track in a hurry.

quote:

Originally posted by nerdmann:
I think that a consistent performer will always be more successful than a "home run" hitter. Favre took alot of chances and made alot of plays, but also made horrendous gaffes. I think Rodgers will play more "within the system," and will have more success.

Out of curiosity, where do you put Favre among quarterbacks in NFL history. 5th? 10th? 15th? Wherever it is, that's how many "consistent performers" there have been in the entire history of the league who have been better and more successful than Favre. And Rodgers is going to be one of them, a determination you can make based on his one-half a game of NFL action? Glad you don't have unrealistic expectations or anything.

quote:

Originally posted by nerdmann:
But Rodgers' ability to perform calmly under pressure is going to be a huge breath of fresh air for Packers fans.

Packers fans have seen one losing season in the last 16 years. One Super Bowl win. Two conference championships. Numerous division titles. Winning season after winning season, more than any other team over the same period.

And Packers fans, compared to any other NFL team's fans, need a "huge breath of fresh air"? Yeah, it'll be great to put all that misery and frustration behind us.

quote:

Originally posted by El-Ka-Bong:


Does Matt Damon take it black or with cream?

I thought we had rules against jokes about gay sex?

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I'm placing a call to Good Will Hunting... Perhaps, he can solve your "proof".

Many people write letters to movie stars. This Change of Possession guy writes to movies. "Dear Die Hard. You rock. Especially when that guy was on the roof. P.S: Do you know Mad Max?"

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession: Favre was a "gun slinger". I don't see any hint of intelligence in a gun slinger. A gun slinger lives on the edge, throws caution to the wind and has to be naturally gifted or he dies/fails.

Billy the Kid seemed smart in "Young Guns." Not a smart as Doc however. Let's just ARodg isn't "Dirty Steve."

quote:

Originally posted by Tschmack: The problem is that I don't think that was an issue with Favre- he scored like a 20 or someting like that (average for that type of test).

and he did that hung over!

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

So A = C, and C = B, and yet B does not equal A.

All men (A) have a name (C)
My name (C) is Chris (B)
All men (A) are named Chris (B)?

quote:

Originally posted by Since69:

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

So A = C, and C = B, and yet B does not equal A.

All men (A) have a name (C)
My name (C) is Chris (B)
All men (A) are named Chris (B)?

"I would never say Favre was stupid or not bright."
"Favre was a gunslinger."
"A gunslinger has no hint of intelligence."

So Favre's a gunslinger, a gunslinger is unintelligent, but Favre wasn't unintelligent?

You tell me if that makes sense.

Classic example of saying something without actually saying it, being called on it, and saying, oh, I'd never say that -- even though 1 plus 1 clearly equals 2.

I couldn't care less if he thinks Favre is stupid or not. I just don't want him to say it in words anyone can comprehend and then act like that's not what he meant. You got an opinion, own it.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

quote:

Originally posted by Since69:

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

So A = C, and C = B, and yet B does not equal A.

All men (A) have a name (C)
My name (C) is Chris (B)
All men (A) are named Chris (B)?

"I would never say Favre was stupid or not bright."
"Favre was a gunslinger."
"A gunslinger has no hint of intelligence."

So Favre's a gunslinger, a gunslinger is unintelligent, but Favre wasn't unintelligent?

You tell me if that makes sense.

Classic example of saying something without actually saying it, being called on it, and saying, oh, I'd never say that -- even though 1 plus 1 clearly equals 2.

I couldn't care less if he thinks Favre is stupid or not. I just don't want him to say it in words anyone can comprehend and then act like that's not what he meant. You got an opinion, own it.

Favre was a "gun slinger". I don't see any hint of intelligence in a gun slinger. A gun slinger lives on the edge, throws caution to the wind and has to be naturally gifted or he dies/fails.

Ok, Maximillion....

Was Favre referred to as a "gun slinger" throughout his career? I used quotes to show that this is what he was known as...not my words but others. I never called him a gunslinger...I called him a "gun slinger" meaning that is what others attributed to him. The statement is accurate...Favre was a "gun slinger". Any issues with that?

I said I would never call Brett dumb or not bright and I won't. You can look at his decision making on the field and come to your own conclusions on that one. Even his biggest supporter, John Madden, questioned his poor decision making on national tv during the end of his career.

I don't see Rodgers in that regard. I don't think he'll do such things purposely as Brett did. Brett was a "always be the hero" type of QB. In his younger days it usually worked but as he got older it worked less and less. I give you two QB ratings in the 70's in his last 3 seasons.

Here's what is unique. If/When Rodgers sucks, I will be the first to say so. I love the guy, but if you suck and do something stupid, you suck and did something stupid. There will be no sycophantic excuse making. If only the reverse were true.

quote:

Originally posted by Since69:

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

So A = C, and C = B, and yet B does not equal A.

All men (A) have a name (C)
My name (C) is Chris (B)
All men (A) are named Chris (B)?

Never studied logic?

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
Here's what is unique. If/When Rodgers sucks, I will be the first to say so. I love the guy, but if you suck and do something stupid, you suck and did something stupid. There will be no sycophantic excuse making. If only the reverse were true.

I guess this is the latest example of saying something without saying something. Is your point that I'm trying to make excuses for Favre or something? Or is this where you say, that wasn't what you meant at all.

Yes, Favre was considered to be a gunslinger. But it's YOUR opinion that there's "no hint of intelligence" there. How can you blame me for drawing the conclusion that you see "no hint of intelligence in Favre" (who we can agree = gunslinger).

Favre's retired and I don't care about making excuses for the guy at this point. The only reason I posted was in response to your implication (in my opinion) that Favre was a tree stump. If I somehow managed to misinterpret you, my bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:

Was Favre referred to as a "gun slinger" throughout his career? I used quotes to show that this is what he was known as...not my words but others. I never called him a gunslinger...I called him a "gun slinger" meaning that is what others attributed to him. The statement is accurate...Favre was a "gun slinger". Any issues with that?

I'll translate for the simpletons..

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I said I would never call Brett dumb or not bright and I won't. Brett is not dumb You can look at his decision making on the field and come to your own conclusions on that one. Brett is "dumb" (see that, I used quotes. Even his biggest supporter, John Madden, questioned his poor decision making on national tv during the end of his career. Madden has never questioned Rodgers decision making nor has he ever questioned Stephen Hawking. Coincidence? I think "not."

I don't see Rodgers in that regard. Not "Dumb"I don't think he'll do such things purposely as Brett did. Brett purposely threw interception as a "method" of personally hurting my feelings. Brett was a "always be the hero" Not my wordstype of QB. In his younger days it usually worked but as he got older it worked less and less. I give you two QB ratings in the 70's in his last 3 seasons "dumb".

Here's what is unique. "unique" If/When Rodgers sucks, I will be the first to say so. Because I am watching over youI love the guy, "love"but if you suck "suck"and do something stupid, you suck and did something stupid. There will be no sycophantic (dictionary.com)excuse making. If only the reverse were true.