I see 8 Packer picks on the books for 2018. Where are the other ones coming from... projected comp picks?
Yes. The Packers I believe will get the maximum allowed. They are sitting at 10 and I believe some reports said it could be 12.
Grave Digger posted:MM has had exactly 2 losing seasons in 12 years...1 when he was breaking in his new QB and 1 when his QB was injured for 3/4 of the season. He’s still one of the best coaches in the league.
This.
Hundley is his fault. So is keeping our “outstanding” DC for as long as he did, but it looks like Dom will finally be gone next season.
Imo, 12 would have at least one more ring if the Packers could have fielded even a halfway competent defense over the last several seasons. Find somebody to fix the D and this team will be right back in it next season.
Floridarob posted:... Time to consider putting a dome in green bay.
packerboi posted:Yes. The Packers I believe will get the maximum allowed. They are sitting at 10 and I believe some reports said it could be 12.
Appears Packers will have 11 or 12 picks: Their own 7, the maximum allowed 4 compensatory picks (an extra 3rd and 3 extra 5ths), and possibly a 7th from the Bills. Here's the projection of those 4 compensatory picks: https://overthecap.com/draft/
Capers has to go. Period. There should be no debate or question on this, he should be out tomorrow/Tuesday. Gently nudge him into retirement. Fire him if you want to give him a going away present of some cash, whatever.
I think he should be replaced with someone from the outside. This organization needs an outsiders POV, a different set of eyes. The benefits of continuity are many, and I don't begrudge them. The downside is that it becomes harder to judge yourselves critically and it's very easy to fall into "this is how we've always done it" or "yes sir" mode.
If MM isn't willing to fire/push out Capers, then he must go as well. Don't think that's the case though.
It feels like Thompson has laid breadcrumbs that he is ready to retire. But, it's also a lot of people and conjecture on a guy that doesn't ever do what people expect. I contend that beyond WR, he hasn't done a stellar job talent wise for a while. Some hits, some misses, but I don't look at any unit beyond WR and starting QB and see talent at the top half/third of the league. DL has moments, but too few and far between them, and always impacted by injuries. If Thompson stays, fine. If he moves on, I don't think it's the end of the world I would have thought it would be 4-5 years ago.
If Thompson moves on, I'd do anything/everything to get John Schneider back here. Might not be possible, but that would be what I would explore first before simply handing the job to any internal folks. I imagine that Schneider isn't available though.
So, my case
- Capers can not return. Period.
- If MM doesn't fire/force out Capers, then the entire coaching staff needs to be fired. I think he will be out though...
- I'd prefer a DC from outside to bring a new philosophy, new eyes, and new perspectives. Yes men and "way we've always done it" leads to stagnation. They need someone that isn't afraid to try new and say no/offer a different alternative to McCarthy. Fangio is the top of my list.
- Personally, I'm not religious about MM. I view him as a guy. Does some things well, others not so well. I think MM is back, and if so, you're gonna have to give him a 2-3 year extension. Hopefully with easy to absorb buyouts. Can't have him coaching on last year of deal.
- I would not be surprised if Thompson steps away. My guess is Thompson stays another year and announces plans that next season is his last and they start grooming the next in line, whomever they think it is.
There has been some discussion that since neither Wolf nor Gutekunst even got an interview with CLE or NYG that they are both moving up in GB. Wolf as EVP & GM, and Gutekunst as EVP of Player Personnel.
Current roles per Packers.com:
- Ted Thompson, Executive Vice President, General Manager & Director of Football Operations
- Eliot Wolf, Director–Football Operations
- Brian Gutekunst, Director of Player Personnel
Interesting that Thompson and Wolf are both listed with the Director of Football Operations title, though Ted gets the '-'.
Floridarob posted:Time for Ted to retire. Time for Edgar bennett and dom capers to go. Time to consider putting a dome in green bay. I love lambeau and all the history but playing at home in December and January does not advantage the packers anymore.
Agree with this. Ted, Edgar and Dom this off-season . If this **** continues for another year or 2 then McCarthy goes so we can try and win another one for #12 before he departs
I don't get the thought that Thompson needs to be fired.
Even more so, why people think Edgar should be cut loose?
Hungry5 posted:There has been some discussion that since neither Wolf nor Gutekunst even got an interview with CLE or NYG that they are both moving up in GB. Wolf as EVP & GM, and Gutenkust as EVP of Player Personnel.
Current roles per Packers.com:
- Ted Thompson, Executive Vice President, General Manager & Director of Football Operations
- Eliot Wolf, Director–Football Operations
- Brian Gutekunst, Director of Player Personnel
Interesting that Thompson and Wolf are both listed with the Director of Football Operations title, though Ted gets the '-'.
Also been some rumbling that Russ Ball is in the mix. My concern is that he's been very contract/cap focused vs player evaluation...
Hungry5 posted:I don't get the thought that Thompson needs to be fired.
Even more so, why people think Edgar should be cut loose?
The reason to get rid of TT is because: 1) we are drafting no worse than 13th, and have a lot of picks, and 2) his drafting since the Super Bowl on defense has been terrible, especially on defense. the question is, given his poor track record and his refusal to sign impact (read costly) free agents, what reason is there to expect giving him the reins this year will lead to a better team next year.
So, with such terrible picks on defense, Dom's not the problem?
Dom needs to go, thanks for the memories. Be careful about Mike, lots of teams are constantly looking for head coaches....he is pretty good and if 12 wants him, keep him. After all, 12 is the Green Bay Packers.
Ted? Time for a tan, a couple of years in Huatulco should help. No reason to think young Wolf can't do as well and a smart connected young guy in for the long haul IMO is the way to go.
Hungry5 posted:So, with such terrible picks on defense, Dom's not the problem?
Nope. Dom's defenses follow a familiar history everywhere he's been, good the first year or two and downhill after that. Nor do his defenses adopt to players talents--witness Hyde and Heyward who leave and become Pro Bowl caliber the next year.
TT's time is now. GD way overvalued guys on his list, the only top-tier guys on the roster are Rodgers, Bakhtiari (and he's top-5) maybe Daniels, Clark, Crosby and possibly Adams. Burnett, Cobb, Bulaga and healthy Matthews and Perry are next tier. The rest are mostly just guys, over the hill, inconsistent as heck, undeveloped or worse.
TT isn't changing, he's going to remain reticent to use free agency and trades to actually fill holes. That's his second and third strike. Otherwise I'd be okay with him staying. And if Thompson goes, the new guy should be allowed to choose his staff.
slowmo posted:Nope. Dom's defenses follow a familiar history everywhere he's been, good the first year or two and downhill after that.
Dom Capers has held the DC position 4 times.
At Pittsburgh he held the job for 3 years. In those 3 years his defenses finished 2nd, 8th, 2nd in Points Allowed. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is not at all accurate at Pittsburgh
At Jacksonville, he held the job for 2 years. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is not at all accurate at Jacksonville
At Miami, he held the job for 1 year. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is not at all accurate at Miami
At Green Bay, he's held the job for 9 years now. In those 9 years his defenses have finished 7th, 2nd, 19th, 11th, 25th, 14th, 12th, 21st, and 21st pending today's final results. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is kinda accurate at Green Bay.
Which makes the myth you're perpetuating that he's good for the 1st 2 years and then downhill after that, not a "familiar history" and simply his results in Green Bay.
I just don't think the Packers will make the sweeping changes fans want it just isn't how they do business. But, I do think they will make some changes with assistant coaches starting with the defense. Not saying it's right it is just how I think it will happen.
As for The Ted, I think the only way he goes is if he retires. But I do think he will be gone after next season if this clown show happens again.
And I do think the same thing another MM. He leaves if he chooses to but I think he gets one more year. I for one don't think he has forgotten how to coach he has just been hamstrung by that defense.
The Heckler posted:. I for one don't think he has forgotten how to coach he has just been hamstrung by that defense.
And although no one wants to hear it....injuries. Played today with only 4 offensive players who were starters at the beginning of season.
CAPackFan95 posted:slowmo posted:Nope. Dom's defenses follow a familiar history everywhere he's been, good the first year or two and downhill after that.
Dom Capers has held the DC position 4 times.
At Pittsburgh he held the job for 3 years. In those 3 years his defenses finished 2nd, 8th, 2nd in Points Allowed. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is not at all accurate at Pittsburgh
At Jacksonville, he held the job for 2 years. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is not at all accurate at Jacksonville
At Miami, he held the job for 1 year. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is not at all accurate at Miami
At Green Bay, he's held the job for 9 years now. In those 9 years his defenses have finished 7th, 2nd, 19th, 11th, 25th, 14th, 12th, 21st, and 21st pending today's final results. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is kinda accurate at Green Bay.
Which makes the myth you're perpetuating that he's good for the 1st 2 years and then downhill after that, not a "familiar history" and simply his results in Green Bay.
In his years in Pittsburgh 8 of the 10 worst offenses were in the AFC. So, there is that. But, I will give it to you that 22 years ago he was a good DC.
In Miami as DC, he was there for two years, not one. The defense was#4 in yards and #5 in points per game his first year (2006). The second year (2007) his defense was #10 in yards, and #30 in points. Then all coaches were fired.
In Jacksonville, they were #4 in yards, #1 in points in his first year. The next year they fell to #12 in yards, #16 in points. He then left to be the Head Coach of Houston.
To the extent that he, as a defensive minded Head Coach, had an impact on the defense-- in Carolina, the defense went from 7th in yards/8th in points in year one (1995) to 10/2 in year two, then 15/13 year three, and finally 30/27 in year four. In Houston, the defense was bad all 4 years he was Head Coach.
https://www.pro-football-refer.../coaches/CapeDo0.htm
Again today we score first only to give up a score on the very next drive and we’re now tied. Then not long after, we’re playing from behind— again. I’ve documented it before, but it’s terrible how many times the D has given up an opening score or a score immediately after we score. It’s amazing how many wins this team has had the past couple years playing against its worst enemy: its own defense.
CUPackFan posted:I keep TT. I might be in the minority but i think the talent is here, it's just suffered from poor coaching. I think TT does need to use free agency more, similar to what he did in 2017. But I just don't think he should be fired.
Getting rid of Dom gives MM one more year but I'd like to see him bring in an outside OC. His offensive scheme is pathetic and requires Rodgers to play at a HOF level for them to win. It's no surprise that we've seen Philbin and Macadoo fall flat on their faces, as they brought the same offense to NY and Miami - only they didn't have Aaron Rodgers running it. It's an offense that calls for very limited route concepts and calls for more WR/TE ISO. When we complain that the Packers WR don't get open, it's b/c MM does not design routes to get them open; he expects them to beat coverage on their own. Look at how few screen passes they run, or how rarely we see pick plays (and how bad they are at running them). I think his offense has become stale and fresh ideas are necessary.
But you cannot clean house. You clean house and it's 3 years before they're competing for a Super Bowl. I just can't think of a team that has completely cleaned house, from GM to head coach to staff, and was competitive soon thereafter. And what GM and head coach out there are immediate upgrades? I could see a head coach improvement but not both.
This. I would also add...
Draft a QB day 3 and have an open competition for the #2 QB position. Play each QB in pre-season with the #1 offense against the other team's #1 defense and have an objective analysis. Maybe we can find another Taysom Hill and not let him get away.
slowmo posted:In his years in Pittsburgh 8 of the 10 worst offenses were in the AFC. So, there is that. But, I will give it to you that 22 years ago he was a good DC.
I never said he was a good DC, was simply pointing out that your "familiar history" story was not really accurate. Nice strawman though.
In Miami as DC, he was there for two years, not one. The defense was#4 in yards and #5 in points per game his first year (2006). The second year (2007) his defense was #10 in yards, and #30 in points. Then all coaches were fired.
The Dolphins own website, and their media guide (page 4) state that Capers was only a special assistant in 2006, not the DC.
In Jacksonville, they were #4 in yards, #1 in points in his first year. The next year they fell to #12 in yards, #16 in points. He then left to be the Head Coach of Houston.
So, again, this isn't at all aligned with the supposed "familiar history" that he's good for a couple years and then there's a downfall from that point forward.
To the extent that he, as a defensive minded Head Coach, had an impact on the defense-- in Carolina, the defense went from 7th in yards/8th in points in year one (1995) to 10/2 in year two, then 15/13 year three, and finally 30/27 in year four. In Houston, the defense was bad all 4 years he was Head Coach.
And, again, we're talking about his role as defensive coordinator, not head coach. Especially not his role as head coach of 2 different expansion teams FFS.
I'm not defending Capers. He should have been fired years ago. But facts are he has never shown to "be a good DC for a while and then players start tuning out" as you and many have said over time. He's only been at one place long enough to even consider that phenomenon - here.
And, his time here needs to end.
Jack Del Rio was just fired... is he a defensive guy?
Why recycle guys? I think I want someone on the rise, not going down.
Herschel posted:TT's time is now. GD way overvalued guys on his list, the only top-tier guys on the roster are Rodgers, Bakhtiari (and he's top-5) maybe Daniels, Clark, Crosby and possibly Adams. Burnett, Cobb, Bulaga and healthy Matthews and Perry are next tier. The rest are mostly just guys, over the hill, inconsistent as heck, undeveloped or worse.
TT isn't changing, he's going to remain reticent to use free agency and trades to actually fill holes. That's his second and third strike. Otherwise I'd be okay with him staying. And if Thompson goes, the new guy should be allowed to choose his staff.
I think your undervaluing the player I listed because the team overall has played poorly this year. I would add Lowry, A. Jones, J. Jones, and Jamal Williams to the list of players with bright futures like Martinez. That’s a lot of talent that TT has brought in. There’s some guys in the middle like Randall, Davis, Janis, etc. who are teetering between good/great and average/terrible.
The problem is the rest of our starters have BPAs like House, Hawkins, Rollins, Dix, Whitehead, Kendricks, R. Rodgers, Ryan, etc. who are average to below average. It’s been that way since 2011, cycling a lot of below average players in. TT has not been willing or able to attract at least 1 high end starter to fill gaps in drafting. That’s not a reason to fire him though, the list of successes far outweighs these failures, I think the W/L record reflects that.
This is too easy
TT needs to go by virtue of his last 3 drafts. Passing on TJ Watt sealed his fate to me and that's a shame because I was one of his biggest advocates.
MM needs to go because it's time and he ****ed up Hundley move and compounded the issue by getting all defensive about it.
Dom needs to go because he sucks and has for some time
Dave Aranda is the guy I would hire as DC
Love what JL is doing in Madison but he's not ready. DA is
Something interesting to watch: MM is in a contract year in 2018. It's unusual for a head coach to go into the last year of his contract without getting extended, so curious if that's what happens. It'll be very telling if it is.
CI never said he was a good DC, was simply pointing out that your "familiar history" story was not really accurate. Nice strawman though.
So, he had one good run as DC in Pitt. In Miami, if your point is that he was only DC one year, his defense was significantly worse in his one year as DC then it was the prior year when he was "special assistant." And, of course, there's Jacksonville. I guess its a shame that Miami and Jacksonville didn't keep Capers around longer as DC to witness his continual slide of mediocrity.
Can I play too?
Capers is a no brainer, it would be a brain scratcher if they promoted from within, so the big ? will be who they can attract. I imagine MM will look for someone who fits into their system, no rah-rah high profile guys. Would it need to be 3-4 or would they have the personnel to quickly switch to 4-3 (I don't think so, but I am no expert.) Personally, I think there is a lot of talent on defense, maybe not enough to be a top 10, but much better than they have been.
MM will stay b/c Rodgers wants him and the risk/reward of replacing him is going to be high. With a healthy Rodgers they will make the playoffs again next year (look how they have made it with such a crappy D all these other years). Do I think MM has flaws? Yes. He is horrible at game management and doesn't do well against half time adjustments, but he is respected by his players and comes with enough to win games. One point I would like to make is that if Hundley had turned out mediocre or they had a descent backup instead, today's game would have probably meant something.
TT, he is still one of the best GMs in the league, IMO and will probably stay as long as he wants which probably is another year or two. Yes he makes mistakes, it is the nature of the business, but he has kept the team stocked with some very good players and kept distractions to a minimum (until signing Bennett) and managed to keep the cap in good shape for a decade now.
For all the negative comments, I understand your frustration, but blowing everything up is not the answer. Nobody knows if a replacement for TT or MM will be any better and there is a good chance they won't be. This team is only a few players and a year of health to make a run for another SuperBowl, you don't blow that up.
I would like to also see an OC that MM could agree on so MM just manages games and the OC calls plays. It’s a lot to do both in a game. Heck, AR can call most of the plays anyway.
slowmo posted:CI never said he was a good DC, was simply pointing out that your "familiar history" story was not really accurate. Nice strawman though.
So, he had one good run as DC in Pitt. In Miami, if your point is that he was only DC one year, his defense was significantly worse in his one year as DC then it was the prior year when he was "special assistant." And, of course, there's Jacksonville. I guess its a shame that Miami and Jacksonville didn't keep Capers around longer as DC to witness his continual slide of mediocrity.
If your story from the beginning was “Capers hasn’t really been great since Pittsburgh and a couple years in GB” I agree!
I remember being thrilled when Capers came to Green Bay.
He was exactly what they needed at the time.
The defense was so phenomenal in 2010, man that was a fun year.
It's just time to move along. It happens to every org.
I wonder if Kevin Greene is ready for a promotion?
Is. It. Time?
Fandame posted:Why recycle guys? I think I want someone on the rise, not going down.
+1
antooo posted:I wonder if Kevin Greene is ready for a promotion?
Is. It. Time?
Perhaps, give him an interview at least.
Starting at the top of football operations:
It's a harsh and cruel business. It take a harsh and cruel man to deal with it. I don't think Murphy is that man. Unfortunately, I think he is our Roger Goodell, and because he seems to be doing fine on the business side, he may not be easy to run off. I'd much rather see him go, but if he doesn't, he needs to step into his role and fulfill responsibilities that doesn't concern "feel good" retirement ceremonies or league matters.
Which brings me to TT, and as I see it, it's time to fish or cut bait. Either he gets a 2-3 year extension, or he is relieved of GM duties. It doesn't make sense to me for a GM to (hypothetically) replace his HC, then retire a year or two later.
I'm in favor of replacing him, but if there is another role for him on the team, I wouldn't have any problems. For example, I think it's time to reviews our scouts, and make sure they're using sound judgement and correct techniques. The guy(s) that look at DBs have a good eye for talent, but are they over-reaching on some of them? We used to do well drafting WRs; but has too much emphasis been placed on pure speed? Whoever looks at LBs for us needs to take a hike.
The same fish/cut bait applies to MM. If TT or a new guy has confidence he can lead this team for the rest of Rodgers' time in Green Bay, he needs to be extended for another 4-5 years. If not....
I'm in favor of getting a new coach.
For every reason I can think of for keeping him, I can think of one for not. This lack of accountability 'thing' that permeates the team is real, and is the biggest reason I have for replacing him. I remarked before that Capers dug his grave, and Hundley shoveled the dirt on top. I think he tends to be a micro-manager, and that's not healthy for the growth of the coaches.
Regardless of what happens with MM, since it's a foregone conclusion that Capers is (finally!) 'leaving', I can't see a new coordinator being forced to use the current position coaches, so I would imagine everybody on that side gets swept out. Too bad for Trgovac. Or is he ready to step up?
Since I'm in favor of replacing MM, that means a new offensive staff. And I don't think there's anyone on that side of the ball who would be missed.
Just exactly what does VanPelt do? He doesn't call plays, and if Hundley is any reflection of his QB coaching skills.... yeesh! ARod probably fills that position better than he does.
And the same basically goes for Bennett, too. I don't know that he's doing a bad job, because I have no idea what it is he actually does. Again, he's not calling plays, and I doubt he does much of the game-planning.
And whatever they are doing isn't working or doesn't work as well as it could (should?), even at full strength.
Campen seems to have the most with the least, but I don't know that he has any particular skills to step up to a coordinator position, here or elsewhere.
Zook....GTFOH.
STs aren't rocket science, and if you can't coach the most basic and simple positions in football with the least amount of responsibilities, it's time for a new profession.
Exhibit # 2,764: Why did Davis continually return KOs today? Was he told to return everything and don't ask questions? Or was it a matter of a coach NOT telling him, "if you bring that *&@$#% ball out again, your ass is going to the bench!"? Ditto for his (Davis) decisions to field and/or return punts.
Lastly, keep in mind when TT and MM were hired, we were looking for a GM and HC at those times, and had no idea how either of them would perform. No reason to be afraid of something new.
Now, I must freely admit this is all my own opinion/speculation, and there is so much more that factor into these decisions than I'll never know. But even Stevie Wonder can see that the status quo can no longer continue.
I've been just for changing DC, but after listening to MM presser, I'm not sure it should stop there. MM seems to have a system in place for running the team and grading players and coaches. He seems confident in the system and therefore it must be others which fail. He seems happy with practice and willing to make excuses for the crud that has been on display much of this season. I wish he came out pissed and promising things would change, things are unacceptable. Instead - he wants to get mad at questions and not the the product he oversees on the field. Seems like he has lost his desire to be a champion.
I read all of Timmy's post. I might be the only one but I liked it.
"Zook....GTFOH!"
Couldn't agree more the "status quo" at 1265 has to come to an end.
I just hope they don't take too long & miss out on candidates.
TT seems to be very slow at this type of thing.