I did not read Timmy!'s novel.
Just kidding, PAKRZ. You're good people.
I couldn't lay off that big ol' softball. 
CAPackFan95 posted:slowmo posted:Nope. Dom's defenses follow a familiar history everywhere he's been, good the first year or two and downhill after that.
Dom Capers has held the DC position 4 times.
At Pittsburgh he held the job for 3 years. In those 3 years his defenses finished 2nd, 8th, 2nd in Points Allowed. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is not at all accurate at Pittsburgh
At Jacksonville, he held the job for 2 years. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is not at all accurate at Jacksonville
At Miami, he held the job for 1 year. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is not at all accurate at Miami
At Green Bay, he's held the job for 9 years now. In those 9 years his defenses have finished 7th, 2nd, 19th, 11th, 25th, 14th, 12th, 21st, and 21st pending today's final results. So, his "familiar history" of downhill after the 1st 2 years is kinda accurate at Green Bay.
Which makes the myth you're perpetuating that he's good for the 1st 2 years and then downhill after that, not a "familiar history" and simply his results in Green Bay.
Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics. Why did he leave the DC position so often in what appears per this post as lateral moves? And the GB history seems spot on to the claim.
Floridarob posted:Time for Ted to retire. Time for Edgar bennett and dom capers to go. Time to consider putting a dome in green bay. I love lambeau and all the history but playing at home in December and January does not advantage the packers anymore.
Domes are for pussies.
Hungry5 posted:I don't get the thought that Thompson needs to be fired.
Even more so, why people think Edgar should be cut loose?
I can see TT being relieved of his GM position but not being tossed out of the front office. He could be director of scouting, which may be to his liking more than his current position is.
I'm for a total tear down all the way to the curtains and rugs. Time for a new "Tude" at 1265. I hear the argument, "McCarthy would be hired in minutes" SO WHAT! His stubbornness and unwillingness to make changes has kept this team from a Super Bowl repeat. I point to last year. No way with Aaron Rodgers and the talent on this team should they have needed to "Run the Table " Just to get in. If both the Lions and Vikes didn't suck last year and blow their seasons, Last years playoff might not have happened at all. What where the Vikes like 5-0 and finished 8-8 and didn't the lions have a 2 game lead going into Dec?
This year not admitting he made a big mistake with Hundley submarined any chance After AR went down. If he said "We got 3 yrs invested with Brent time for him to step up" and after 2 games it was obvious he couldn't do the job. He could have gone another route with Callahan or a vet off the street at least. But no he knows everything, snaps at reporters who point out the obvious. And when the Packers are eliminated with nothing to play for, still starts Hundley knowing if Callahan performed he'd have egg on his face.
Not to mention, No Fire on this team when their jobs are on the line.
After the game, Davon House was quoted as follows:
“Now that Aaron’s not there, you have to do the little things right. We just didn’t do it.”
To me, that short statement says a lot about the mindset in Green Bay. Everybody stands around waiting for AR to get it done. Winning championships requires everybody to "do the little things right."
It's the exact reason why major changes are needed at 1265. It's not just Dom.
Loss of AR revealed the serious deficiencies that exist in the franchise in both talent and coaching. Need a fresh approach throughout and nothing short of a complete housecleaning will be sufficient, IMO. That said, the only changes I see are in the defensive staff and perhaps some other coaching changes at the margins.
Pakrz posted:Winning championships requires everybody to "do the little things right."
Ain't that the truth. I'm a fan of McStupidface, but what I heard yesterday got me thinking there is a lot of little things that are not happening.
Grave Digger posted:Herschel posted:TT's time is now. GD way overvalued guys on his list, the only top-tier guys on the roster are Rodgers, Bakhtiari (and he's top-5) maybe Daniels, Clark, Crosby and possibly Adams. Burnett, Cobb, Bulaga and healthy Matthews and Perry are next tier. The rest are mostly just guys, over the hill, inconsistent as heck, undeveloped or worse.
TT isn't changing, he's going to remain reticent to use free agency and trades to actually fill holes. That's his second and third strike. Otherwise I'd be okay with him staying. And if Thompson goes, the new guy should be allowed to choose his staff.
I think your undervaluing the player I listed because the team overall has played poorly this year. I would add Lowry, A. Jones, J. Jones, and Jamal Williams to the list of players with bright futures like Martinez. That’s a lot of talent that TT has brought in. There’s some guys in the middle like Randall, Davis, Janis, etc. who are teetering between good/great and average/terrible.
The problem is the rest of our starters have BPAs like House, Hawkins, Rollins, Dix, Whitehead, Kendricks, R. Rodgers, Ryan, etc. who are average to below average. It’s been that way since 2011, cycling a lot of below average players in. TT has not been willing or able to attract at least 1 high end starter to fill gaps in drafting. That’s not a reason to fire him though, the list of successes far outweighs these failures, I think the W/L record reflects that.
Lowry and Martinez are solid rotational guys but not front-line starters. If they're in your weaker tier of starters they're fine but on this defense they're mainstays. Martinez desperately needs a real ILB with speed next to him because he's a slightly better AJ Hawk with his range deficiencies.
Jamal Williams is a JAG. He simply lacks vision. Again, if he's your #3 you're okay. Aaron Jones is intriguing, but inconsistent judgement may be his downfall before he rounds out his pro skill set. Randall's inconsistency is hard to judge, granted, but Janis is a JAG and Davis appears top be also.
Part of the problem is TT fills the team with JAGs, even in the draft. He stockpiles mediocre picks rather than judiciously making strong, yet cost-effective moves for playmakers. Imagine had he stayed put and taken TJ Watt, Alvin Kamara and Cameron Sutton/Cordrea Tankersly then maybe Desmond King for your Swiss Army DB and still taken Aaron Jones. An offensive backfield of Kamara, Jones, and maybe Clement looks a hell of a lot better than Williams, Jones and Mays.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Pakrz posted:Winning championships requires everybody to "do the little things right."
Ain't that the truth. I'm a fan of McStupidface, but what I heard yesterday got me thinking there is a lot of little things that are not happening.
Exactly the difference between us and the Patriots. We both have great QBs, but other than that the overall talent is pretty equivalent other than maybe the TE. The BIG difference is the rest of the New England players play their roles extremely well and don't do stupid S*** and are well coached. One team with five super bowls other with one.
The NE Patriots are a tough team for anybody to compare to. Love 'em or hate 'em, they are a stellar organization. With that said, from top to bottom in the franchise there is one very simple rule.
Do your job.
It doesn't matter if you're the owner, coach, HOF quarterback, ST's guy or the person doing laundry. If everybody simply does their job, success will follow.
As Lombardi did, they motivate through fear....a fear that if you don't perform / conform they will get rid of you, no matter who you are.
Grave Digger posted:Aaron Rodgers - Best QB in the league
David Bakhtiari - Best LT in the league
Davante Adams - Top 10 WR in the league
Bryan Bulaga - Best RT in the league (when healthy)
Mike Daniels - Top 10 DT in the league
Jordy Nelson - Top 15 WR in the league
Morgan Burnett - Top 10 SS in the league
Randall Cobb - Top 25 WR in the league
Kenny Clark - Top 20 DT in the league
Nick Perry - Top 20 pass rusher in the league
Corey Linsley - Top 10 C in the league
Lane Taylor - Top 20 G in the league
Blake Martinez - 1st in the league in Tackles
All TT picks and all but 2 are from 2010 to 2016. TT can still find talent and he can manage the cap.
MM has had exactly 2 losing seasons in 12 years...1 when he was breaking in his new QB and 1 when his QB was injured for 3/4 of the season. He’s still one of the best coaches in the league.
MM is 6-12-1 without an all world QB...that's terrible-Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Bellichek...even Mike Zimmer have had success after losing their star QBS...it exposes his myopic game planning---which was effective 6 years ago, but is well known to everyone and is killing us; His inability to make a change at DC is baffling....with the exception of Crosby, how can our special teams be so mediocre year after year? --maybe it takes three years to recover, but let's start now instead of next year---because next year we are going to have more of this. I love TT but: I don't see Corey Linsley or Lane Taylor as elite players-they're serviceable. You list 4 good players from the past 5 drafts----that is terrible..He passed on Watts, traded up to get Spriggs, didn't re-sign Tretter, Hyde or Heyward---but signed M. Bennet and Brooks---TT is a great one, but he is in a big time slump....Maybe King will get healthy and Jones will mature...but maybe D. Adams gets one more whack and hangs it up, leaving us with another great big hole.......Things pass us by...it's time for TT to go home to Texas and work on a tan.
Herschel posted:.Lowry and Martinez are solid rotational guys but not front-line starters. If they're in your weaker tier of starters they're fine but on this defense they're mainstays. Martinez desperately needs a real ILB with speed next to him because he's a slightly better AJ Hawk with his range deficiencies.
Jamal Williams is a JAG. He simply lacks vision. Again, if he's your #3 you're okay. Aaron Jones is intriguing, but inconsistent judgement may be his downfall before he rounds out his pro skill set. Randall's inconsistency is hard to judge, granted, but Janis is a JAG and Davis appears top be also.
Part of the problem is TT fills the team with JAGs, even in the draft. He stockpiles mediocre picks rather than judiciously making strong, yet cost-effective moves for playmakers. Imagine had he stayed put and taken TJ Watt, Alvin Kamara and Cameron Sutton/Cordrea Tankersly then maybe Desmond King for your Swiss Army DB and still taken Aaron Jones. An offensive backfield of Kamara, Jones, and maybe Clement looks a hell of a lot better than Williams, Jones and Mays.
You’re talking about playerings in year 1 and 2, already labeling them as JAG’s. Lowry and Martinez made big jumps from years 1 to 2 and Williams/Jones made improvement week to week. AFAIK, Hawk never led the league in tackles or had more than 120 tackles, Mart just had 144 in year 2. FYI we’re also talking about all Day 3 players. Many teams passed on that dream draft you just listed including GM geniuses like Bill Belichick. A fantasy redraft is a poor way to judge a GM. Judge him by the developed talent already on the roster which includes about half of our starting 24 among the best at their position in the league, with the rest either young and developing or needs to be replaced. Unfortunately we have too much inexperienced depth right now or avaerage depth. Overall TT has had enough successes to consider him one of the top GMs in the league, the Packers W/L record reflects that. No GM bats 100 filling out a roster.
Johnson posted:MM is 6-12-1 without an all world QB...that's terrible-Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Bellichek...even Mike Zimmer have had success after losing their star QBS...it exposes his myopic game planning---which was effective 6 years ago, but is well known to everyone and is killing us; His inability to make a change at DC is baffling....with the exception of Crosby, how can our special teams be so mediocre year after year? --maybe it takes three years to recover, but let's start now instead of next year---because next year we are going to have more of this. I love TT but: I don't see Corey Linsley or Lane Taylor as elite players-they're serviceable. You list 4 good players from the past 5 drafts----that is terrible..He passed on Watts, traded up to get Spriggs, didn't re-sign Tretter, Hyde or Heyward---but signed M. Bennet and Brooks---TT is a great one, but he is in a big time slump....Maybe King will get healthy and Jones will mature...but maybe D. Adams gets one more whack and hangs it up, leaving us with another great big hole.......Things pass us by...it's time for TT to go home to Texas and work on a tan.
Those teams don’t build their team around the QB. We’ve seen plenty of other teams plummet when they lose their franchise QB...Indy, Denver, Seattle before Wilson. Let’s see if Zimmer wins a SB before we declare his team building method as comparable to Lombardi, Landry, etc. Let’s see Zimmer win when he loses his OC, who will be a hot HC this year...didn’t work out to well for Atlanta who squeeked into the playoffs without their OC. This team will be fine with a shake up on D and a healthy Rodgers, we will be praising TT and MM this time next year when we are the #1 seed in the playoffs.
I tend to think the pack ought to blow it up. Capers is obvious.
MM:
o The whole Hundley thing. (How did he not already know what the Pack had in him?)
o Keeping Capers. (How in the world could he have retained him this long?)
o The idea that head coaches generally have a certain shelf life with one team before things get stale.
o Offensive system seems fairly easy to defend.
TT:
o He has had the authority to order MM to get rid of Capers, but did not exercise it.
o I don't think there is a lot of talent on the roster.
I think Thompson should go. His age and only having 1 year left on his contract are real deciding factors for me. Really don't want to sit through another off-season of "the draft will fix it" and "let's sign a couple guys who got cut and simply were not worth it for their last team" approaches and potentially waste another year for Rodgers. I'd still argue that the Bennett signing largely came about only because the Packers were limited to receiving four compensatory picks and the Bennett signing wasn't going to affect the compensatory pick situation. Maybe the same thing could happen if the Packers re-sign Morgan Burnett because they really don't have much else in the way of quality free agents. But if Thompson lets Burnett go, then he could just sit out free agency again because signing someone could cost the Packers that comp pick they would get for Burnett. Also have concerns that he'll just let Cobb, Nelson, Matthews all sit on the roster and take up space that could be used elsewhere because they are his "chicks." I'm certainly not suggesting that all three should go, but if good free agency opportunities arise then probably one or maybe two of them should go in an attempt to upgrade the roster. I'd just hate to sit through the status quo for one more season when the status quo hasn't really worked the last few off-seasons and then have Thompson ride off into the sunset when the year is over. According to an article in the Journal-Sentinel this morning Thompson is the fourth oldest GM in the NFL after two owners and Belichick, so the end is coming soon.
I always get nervous running head coaches out of situations where they had success. McCarthy stays even though I was pretty unhappy with his performance this season.
Capers and Whitt are the most obvious candidates in the entire organization to go. I'd be willing to get rid of all the veteran coaches on the defensive staff but wouldn't mind seeing Mike Trgovac stay. I remember reviewing the Winston Moss linebacker groups and defensive performances of the team while he was with the Saints and was never impressed and can't say his resume as a Packer hasn't been all that impressive either. Darren Perry maybe shouldn't be accountable for the fact that Josh Jones can't figure it out but the enormous drop in production for Clinton-Dix is very hard to ignore.
I was all over Edgar Bennett last year because, if remembered correctly, most of the screenshots complaining about the Packer's offense showed that receivers weren't getting open. That seems to have changed this year. Luke Getsy is already gone, I guess I don't see that as a huge loss and wonder if the Packers had been grooming David Raih for that spot anyway. James Campen is the one, completely obvious "must retain." Will be interesting to see what happens with Brian Angelichio. If the Packers fired Sam Gash because Lacy was fat and couldn't get to bed on time, and fired Jerry Fontenot because he couldn't turn Richard Rodgers into a good NFL tight end, then how does Angelichio keep his job when Bennett quit on the team, Richard Rodgers still isn't a good NFL tight end and Lance Kendricks had a pretty disappointing year as well?
I'm not even going to whine about special teams. It's just so obvious at this point that McCarthy doesn't really give a sh*t about it. How many different special teams coordinators does a team have to go through before you just stop scapegoating them? If nothing else, that time when the field goal unit had 10 seconds to run out and kick a field goal, and they did...that alone was enough to convince me that Zook should be retained. One thing that is a concern is that the damn punt returner just cannot seem to figure out that he cannot field punts within his own 5 yard line.
I'd say the following should be out:
GM-Ted Thompson
Defensive Coordinator-Dom Capers
Associate Head Coach/Linebackers - Winston Moss
Seconday/Cornerbacks - Joe Whitt, Jr.
Secondary/Safeties - Darren Perry
Tight Ends - Brian Angelichio
And people think War and Peace is a difficult read,
El-Ka-Bong posted:Pakrz posted:Winning championships requires everybody to "do the little things right."
Ain't that the truth. I'm a fan of McStupidface, but what I heard yesterday got me thinking there is a lot of little things that are not happening.
Maybe this is MM's way of "getting out" of Green Bay.
Humans not robots
For everybody who says that Rodger's injury exposed MM as a fraud, how does the Packer's season play out (and the Vikings) if Keenum was a Packer and Hundley was a Viking?
Brainwashed Boris posted:El-Ka-Bong posted:Pakrz posted:Winning championships requires everybody to "do the little things right."
Ain't that the truth. I'm a fan of McStupidface, but what I heard yesterday got me thinking there is a lot of little things that are not happening.
Maybe this is MM's way of "getting out" of Green Bay.
Humans not robots
You might be on to something....
GratefulPack posted:For everybody who says that Rodger's injury exposed MM as a fraud, how does the Packer's season play out (and the Vikings) if Keenum was a Packer and Hundley was a Viking?
Makes it look like McCarthy/Thompson are indeed frauds as Keenum was through to be the franchise's #3/insurance policy signing heading into the season and he outperformed McCarthy/Thompson's #2 QB by about as big of a margin as possible.
But in the end I think the Vikings would still be a pretty good team even with a crappy QB because the defense was #1/#1 in yards/points allowed and that receiving group with Diggs, Thielen, Rudolph is under-rated and probably one of the better units in the NFL. Keenum may have had a nice year but he wasn't going to go out there and out-gun opposing offenses (due to the bad defense) with the Packer's group of receivers and inexperienced running backs.
I think the situations for both teams would be different. Keenum had actual starting experience heading into this season, Hundley had none. MIN is not a team that relies on the QB either, GB had rookie RBs in a scheme built around the QB. Hundley would have been asked to do less and that D would have kept them in games. If Keenum was in GB I think the offense would move better, maybe they get one or two more wins. Hundley was a rookie starter, we see actual rookies start every year and we think nothing of their mistakes. You don’t know what you have in a young player until you play him...they did it in ‘08 and it worked out fine. This time it didn’t work out, doesn’t mean MM was wrong.
PackerJoe posted:But in the end I think the Vikings would still be a pretty good team even with a crappy QB because the defense was #1/#1 in yards/points allowed and that receiving group with Diggs, Thielen, Rudolph is under-rated and probably one of the better units in the NFL. Keenum may have had a nice year but he wasn't going to go out there and out-gun opposing offenses (due to the bad defense) with the Packer's group of receivers and inexperienced running backs.
You are deadass rong on this. Hundley couldn't throw an accurate pass over 15 yards. Less than half of those long passes to Diggs and Thielen would have been complete had Hundley thrown them. Add in the INTs and the Vikings record with Hundley would have been the same as the Packers was. I don't give damn how elite the defense is. Throw a pick 6 and you lose 7-0. The D pitched a shut out but you still lost.
I agree ammo. Great evidence on why McCarthy should be fired.
ESPN reporting TT is transitioning out as GM.
@Mortreport: Ted Thompson will not return as the GM of the Green Bay Packers but will remain with the team. The front office will go through a reorganization with team president Mark Murphy defining new roles for current members of front office, per league and team sources.
YooperPackfan posted:Dream on
Oh I'm dreamin' brother.... I'm fukking dreamin'!!!!!
Haven't been this excited in awhile.
Pakrz posted:YooperPackfan posted:Dream on
Oh I'm dreamin' brother.... I'm fukking dreamin'!!!!!
Haven't been this excited in awhile.
Keep on a dreamin’ cuz Mike is still here lol
2 outta 3 ain't bad!
Besides... I do think a lot can be said for a little stability. With the axes falling today, I can live with giving MM another year to see what's up.
Now have a dream about Moss going to Detoilet as head coach
Problem is do they give MM an extension? If not he coaches 2018 as a lame duck. I say dump him as well.
Not sure I get the “excitement” of these changes... I mean yeah, we all agree the current regime has run its course, but these next moves have to be winners or the team loses it greatest QB ever...
Music City posted:Not sure I get the “excitement” of these changes... I mean yeah, we all agree the current regime has run its course, but these next moves have to be winners or the team loses it greatest QB ever...
WTF are you talking about?
ilcuqui posted:ESPN reporting TT is transitioning out as GM.
@Mortreport: Ted Thompson will not return as the GM of the Green Bay Packers but will remain with the team. The front office will go through a reorganization with team president Mark Murphy defining new roles for current members of front office, per league and team sources.
I am somewhat happy with this. On the fence line with MM.
I am okay with what's happened so far. Keep MM and extend him a couple years on a make-it contract and that he gets a more hands-on OC. He's just got to learn to stop being so loyal/stubborn.
Pakrz posted:Music City posted:Not sure I get the “excitement” of these changes... I mean yeah, we all agree the current regime has run its course, but these next moves have to be winners or the team loses it greatest QB ever...
WTF are you talking about?
Just this sentiment that these are “exciting” times... guys are getting fired. I just don’t think that is in itself worthy of excitement.