Superb Owl - not that anyone really cares

PackerJoe posted:

MichiganPacker posted:

Shanahan called a play that ended up requiring the back (now Freeman at 5'9") to pick up Hightower. Freeman didn't even touch him and Hightower got the strip sack. If Coleman doesn't get hurt, that strip sack probably doesn't happen.

Even if Freeman was 5'4" 140 pounds he should have made that block.  Just getting in the way and forcing Hightower to run him over would have slowed him up enough.  I don't know how he could have missed that, it was obvious Hightower was coming and Freeman looked like he just decided that blocking air would be more effective.  The tackle wasn't going to pick up Hightower because Ninkovich was lined up over him.  They had the perfect protection and Freeman was in the right spot to pick up the blitzer and he just blew it.  I have to agree that if Coleman (or just about any other running back) is in the game then Hightower isn't a factor in the play.   

I agree. You can't blame Ryan or Shanahan for that. That was a matador-level block. I don't know the scouting report on Freeman in pass pro, but I have to believe he's executed at a minimal level of competence before.

The Hightower play was on a third and one. Easy to blame Shanahan for not sticking with the run in that situation.

Grave Digger posted:

I'm not a Patriots fan, but I was on their side last night. Don't like the Falcons or their bandwagon fans, same feelings I have toward Seattle and their fans. I respect the Patriots though, they win and that's really what it comes down to. I think Brady got screwed by the league, they had no evidence he did anything they accused him of, but he was convicted anyway. I'm glad the Patriots shoved it in Goodell's pie hole, fukk that guy. Be as jealous as you want of BB or Brady, but they're two of the all time greats and whether you think Brady sucked or won the game, he's got the ring and that's all that matters. He did enough.

Lots of great posts this morning on all sides. Really like this one.

I am old enough to remember my relatives in Chicago tell me they didn't like Vince because he yelled too much and that Bart Starr had to be a phony, no pro athlete actually was that clean cut and pious. That George Halas, though. Now there was a man.

Go figure.

Something Brandt said that I wasn't aware of was that the Falcons were frequently snapping the ball in the second half with 15-20 seconds left on the play clock. If accurate that would appear to be a really inexcusable coaching blunder.

PackerJoe posted:

MichiganPacker posted:

Shanahan called a play that ended up requiring the back (now Freeman at 5'9") to pick up Hightower. Freeman didn't even touch him and Hightower got the strip sack. If Coleman doesn't get hurt, that strip sack probably doesn't happen.

Even if Freeman was 5'4" 140 pounds he should have made that block.  Just getting in the way and forcing Hightower to run him over would have slowed him up enough.  I don't know how he could have missed that, it was obvious Hightower was coming and Freeman looked like he just decided that blocking air would be more effective.  The tackle wasn't going to pick up Hightower because Ninkovich was lined up over him.  They had the perfect protection and Freeman was in the right spot to pick up the blitzer and he just blew it.  I have to agree that if Coleman (or just about any other running back) is in the game then Hightower isn't a factor in the play.   

I don't think Ryan saw Hightower until Hightower was in his face. It would've been hard for Ryan to throw the ball away if he didn't see the pressure coming. It looked like Freeman didn't even think of blocking Hightower. He just stood at the line and let Hightower run past him. That sack cost Atlanta the game. We won't see them back in the Super Bowl for several years, at least.

michiganjoe posted:

Something Brandt said that I wasn't aware of was that the Falcons were frequently snapping the ball in the second half with 15-20 seconds left on the play clock. If accurate that would appear to be a really inexcusable coaching blunder.

That is correct.  

Earlier I didn't really think Ryan was at fault, but I take it back, I now think Matty Puddles did choke.  I watched the last 5 minutes again.  They had the long throw to Freeman, up 28-20.  Clock running.  5:20 or so left.  Next play he snapped the ball with 20 seconds left on the play clock.

Next play a run and he snaps the ball with 18 seconds left on the play clock.

Then he completely butchered the last 57 seconds, there was more than enough time to get something done, even without timeouts.  The spike on 2nd down was incredibly stupid.

For the record, Vince and Bart still are the greatest winning combo in league history. Bart is 9-1 in championship games. He called all his own plays.

Montana and Brady and Elway are great too. My litmus test is who could have willed his team down the field the way Bart did in the Ice Bowl after having had the snot kicked out of him the entire second half. I think any of those three could have done it. But Bart and Vince are still kings. Don't ever forget.

We'll certainly see if Ryan is the real deal, truly elite type QB the media has made him out to be.  I've always been a doubter but have the admitted bias because of that playoff game where Tramon Williams seemed to be Ryan's favorite receiver.  I guess we'll find out next year.  One thing for sure, Cam Newton seemed to be every bit of a fraud as many believed him to be.  Talk about NOT rallying the troops and having the team go right down the crapper.

I take the opposite view of Belichick, Heckler. I love the guy, he's a trend setter. It's a copycat league and BB is constantly setting the tone and no one seems to be able to replicate his results. I also don't think his methods are any more questionable than anyone else's, which seems to be the beef many people have...the big difference is that he's been caught and no one else has because no one is under the same scrutiny. I think what I like about BB is the same thing I like about Saban, they don't run their mouths like Rex Ryan and they don't make excuses. They're about football and only football. Too many coaches, like Rex Ryan and Pete Carroll, are about the spotlight. BB just does his job and shuts the fuk up. McCarthy and Ted Thompson are the same way, their press conferences are boring and that's okay. They're about football, not giving the media a good sound bite. 

If not for a complete defensive collapse and a few critical chokes of his own late in the game, Ryan far outplayed Brady as far as throwing the ball.  I dare say he made some AR type throws at different parts of the game - with help from JJ.  Didn't he have a perfect QBR half way through the third?  And I am NOT a big Ryan fan.  I can think of 1 pass Brady through during their comeback that reminded me how good he can be - when he dropped that sideline throw to Bennett right over the CB and into Bennett's hands.  Other than that it looked like practice pitch and catch.  Not to mention some of the horrible throws Brady made that should have been picked.  I don't have a problem calling Brady GOAT at this point but last night was not an elite performance.

They kept trying to compare Seattle and Atlanta.  I think this will hold some water, high priced QB, lots of young talent on offense/defense that is currently pretty cheap. 

What a bunch of bandwagoners Falcons fans are...read the comment section for some gems...

http://atlantafalcons.blog.ajc...super-bowl-collapse/

michiganjoe posted:

Something Brandt said that I wasn't aware of was that the Falcons were frequently snapping the ball in the second half with 15-20 seconds left on the play clock. If accurate that would appear to be a really inexcusable coaching blunder.

Really inexcusable. There's a point in a game where bleeding the clock has to be your number one priority. And they had definitely reached that point.

McCarthy has the opposite problem I'd argue. Too often he tries to bleed the clock prematurely to the detriment of field position and points. The end of the NFCCG w/ Seattle was actually good from a decision-making standpoint though. Some of the stuff earlier in the game not so much.

Atlanta bungled it enough to where I'd say if Belichick was in their 28-3 position, he'd lose the game maybe 1 time in 10,000 and it would be on two fumbled snaps or something. Certainly not by sack-fumbles and saving the clock for his opponent.

One thing I like about the Pats winning is it kind of kills any lingering resentment about the NFCCG. I guess this year wasn't a big deal as it was just a no-show blowout, but it still feels better seeing Atlanta lose. Seeing the Seahawks lose in crushing fashion as well took most sting out of that all-timer gut-punch game than I had thought possible.

The Pats losing two Eli twice after he rolled through Lambeau doesn't give much solace in retrospect. Crummy Eli. With two rings. At our expense. Ick.

ilcuqui posted:

For the record, Vince and Bart still are the greatest winning combo in league history. Bart is 9-1 in championship games. He called all his own plays.

Montana and Brady and Elway are great too. My litmus test is who could have willed his team down the field the way Bart did in the Ice Bowl after having had the snot kicked out of him the entire second half. I think any of those three could have done it. But Bart and Vince are still kings. Don't ever forget.

With a lot of help from Chuck Mercein.

Not a huge fan of Brady, Belichick, or the Patriots, but I recognize and appreciate greatness. That was an absolutely amazing comeback on the biggest stage.

And if you insist on simply blaming this on the Falcons and are unwilling to give the Pats - especially Brady - credit, you're not being objective.  That was an amazing effort by Brady & Co. in the 4th quarter.  I tip my cap to them.  Well done.  

It did look like pitch-and-catch in the third quarter because the Atlanta DBs assigned to Amendola and Edelmann couldn't keep up to them in quickness or speed. In the first half the DL of Atlanta took it to NE (a surprise there) so Brady couldn't get the ball to those two slot guys -- and the DBs were holding. Once the DBs had to let them go or risk yet another penalty and the OL of NE held up second longer, it was easy for Brady to find those guys wide open in the middle. Brady still made some terrible throws even though guys were open. Atlanta's DL was totally gassed by the middle of the third quarter. But White was the MVP of this game.

Ryan just gets that deer-in-headlights look on the big stage when put under pressure. He makes horrible decisions. It's on him to bleed the clock before snapping the ball; he's got to have more awareness than he's got. Bad playcalling, yes, but to get sacked and take them out of field goal range was a horrible mistake. Now the DL can just come hard and they got the bonus holding call cuz Ryan needed time for longer routes to develop. Bad play call, but Ryan has to know he can't take a sack there under any circumstances. Matty Ice indeed. Mentally, he's never been strong under adversity. 

Julio Jones got 4 targets yesterday and caught all 4 for 87 yards. After his circus catch that should have clinched the game he didn't get another target.

The other play that is overlooked is the kickoff after the game was tied. Weems fielded it at the goal line and took it out. I'd have to go back and look, but could he have downed it? That would have been 14 yards of field position. They could have had the ball at the 25 needing about 35 yards to get a shot at a long FG.

They had 57 seconds left. That's an eternity, but they felt they couldn't risk anything throw the ball into the middle of the field twice and were able to pick up only 16 yards in the first 38 seconds before spiking the ball. That was atrocious clock management.

Then Matty Ice throws deep on third down- to a rookie TE in double coverage. If you are going to do the long throw/jump ball - throw to the ball to Julio Freaking Jones. I don't care if there were 5 guys on him.

16 penalties called in the game. 8 each half. 1st half was 4/4. 2nd half was 5 ATL / 3 NEP. For the most part the ref's let them play.

For all the talk about ATL speed, the NEP WRs got the better of them in the 2nd half.

Falcons on third down:

Against Pats 1-8

Against Packers 10-13

DC vs. BB/MP.

Pats also at full health on D.

But those are interesting stats regardless of the comparison.  I noticed it even earlier in the game when ATL was having success on all the other downs.  They struggled on 3rd down all game.  An odd clog in what is otherwise a very explosive offense.

Didn't Coleman get hurt trying to make a block on a blitzer?
I don't think either Falcons RB looked very good in pass pro.

PackFoo posted:

What a bunch of bandwagoners Falcons fans are...read the comment section for some gems...

http://atlantafalcons.blog.ajc...super-bowl-collapse/

The EXACT reason I can't stand Atlanta.
EVERYBODY, and I do mean everybody, in ATL last week was a "lifelong fan".
As soon as the game ended last night, it was more of the same as it's always been; "typical Atlanta sports team", "they always choke", etc., etc., all coming from these lifelong fans. 

Packdog posted:

The talk of Brady being the GOAT and Belichick being the greatest coach in history....is going to be rampant. Gonna be a tough time for some. 

Living in the moment.....I'm  good with that & I get it. 

We all know the best coach in the history of the game has his name on the trophy for a reason.

End of discussion. 

Timmy! posted:

Didn't Coleman get hurt trying to make a block on a blitzer?
I don't think either Falcons RB looked very good in pass pro.

Yes. I felt it was ironic that Bob McGinn just made a case for smaller RBs in one of this latest columns. Smaller RBs are an issue if they can't pass protect.

As good as Monty was at times having to convert halfway through the year, he did seem to struggle in pass protection (teams started to blitz as an adjustment to whenever he was in the backfield on passing downs). I think Monty is willing and able, he just didn't have a training camp and reps to learn this. Michael appeared to have no idea what he was doing in pass protection. The Packers need a Matt Forte type (a poor-man's version will do). Maybe Monty can be that with some additional reps.

DH13 posted:

DC vs. BB/MP.

Pats also at full health on D.

But those are interesting stats regardless of the comparison.  I noticed it even earlier in the game when ATL was having success on all the other downs.  They struggled on 3rd down all game.  An odd clog in what is otherwise a very explosive offense.

Small RBs struggle on 3rd and short. For all of Lacy's (most self-inflicted) weaknesses, he was a guy who could move the pile.

DH13 posted:

If not for a complete defensive collapse and a few critical chokes of his own late in the game, Ryan far outplayed Brady as far as throwing the ball.  I dare say he made some AR type throws at different parts of the game - with help from JJ.  Didn't he have a perfect QBR half way through the third?  And I am NOT a big Ryan fan.  I can think of 1 pass Brady through during their comeback that reminded me how good he can be - when he dropped that sideline throw to Bennett right over the CB and into Bennett's hands.  Other than that it looked like practice pitch and catch.  Not to mention some of the horrible throws Brady made that should have been picked.  I don't have a problem calling Brady GOAT at this point but last night was not an elite performance.

DH much of what you said I can't disagree with. Brady made some bad throws, and Ryan played an extremely efficient game for the most part. I'm not a Ryan fan at all,so this is admittedly somewhat biased, but outside of the throw to Julio,which was a vg throw but even better catch, Matty had two drives where the onus was on him to make a play,and he shrunk under the heat of the spotlight. He had weapons all around him all season but when it mattered most he curled up into the fetal position. The difference between Ryan and greatness was on full display in the fourth qtr. And I couldn't help but think of Rodgers to Jennings on third down in the seam to break Pittsburgh's back. Checkdown Matty would much rather dump the ball off 5 yds and let the receiver rac for 40. Brady wants the ball in his hands. 

Except Ryan wouldn't have checked down. If his first guy wasn't open, he'd hold the ball until he was sacked and then he would probably lose it.

DH13 posted:

Brady played like **** for 3 quarters and still wins.  He did nothing out of the ordinary outside of not folding.  The passes he completed were always to pretty open receivers.  But when you're good for that long I guess you can just tag that on to your legend.

What are you? A Brett Favre disciple. It is the job of the QB to find the open guy and to deliver the football to him. Throwing it through 8 guys looks cool, but it isn't very smart.

Reasons TB is not the GOAT, alternative facts

TB Super Bowls

36 - tuck rule/game or they aren't even there. tape-gate

38 - maybe the best 4th qtr of a SB ever. Brady played really well. 41-yard field goal by Vinatieri. without the NE defense and Vinatieri's 5 FGs in the championship game, they aren't in 38

39 - another outstanding BB defense. and to be honest, they beat the McNabb led eagles. i mean, really

49 - malcolm butler and pete carroll are why the pats won this one.

51 - see 49, but insert shannahan and quinn

ChilliJon posted:

Atlanta lost this game. Don't play up Brady. 

Like how ATL threw the ball for almost 500 yards and Brady got credit for it,

Boris posted:

Packdog posted:

The talk of Brady being the GOAT and Belichick being the greatest coach in history....is going to be rampant. Gonna be a tough time for some. 

Living in the moment.....I'm  good with that & I get it. 

We all know the best coach in the history of the game has his name on the trophy for a reason.

End of discussion. 

Yup, preaching to the choir my man.

With all the Patriot greatest ever hysteria, there's even going to be talk of changing that name on the trophy. Wasn't it Packer fan favorite Troy Aikman who suggested they might be changing it to BB's name ? Blasphemous I know. Brace yourselves(or do what I do and just tune it out/turn it off).  

Haven't watched 1 minute of NFL Network, ESPN or any sports channel since Championship Sunday. 

I did watch the Spurs vs. Thunder in glorious 4k though.

The off-season is here.

I watched some Davis Cup, some hockey, and some soccer.  The Champions League can't get here soon enough.

Unless you're a Spurs fan, I suppose.

Goalline posted:

DH13 posted:

Brady played like **** for 3 quarters and still wins.  He did nothing out of the ordinary outside of not folding.  The passes he completed were always to pretty open receivers.  But when you're good for that long I guess you can just tag that on to your legend.

What are you? A Brett Favre disciple. It is the job of the QB to find the open guy and to deliver the football to him. Throwing it through 8 guys looks cool, but it isn't very smart.

And when you don't have receivers running free and open?  You act as if the tough throws even Matty Fake made were not necessary because he had other guys that were more open?  That sounds more like a Favre apologist meme.  Or are you saying finding those wide open receivers was so difficult only Tom frickin Brady could have found them?  Do you think maybe something else changed for the NE WR's between the first half and the fourth quarter?  They sure weren't getting open in the first half and Brady had nowhere to throw and he looked plain bad.  He was making bad decisions and bad throws because nobody was open and he wan't exactly throwing people open either.

This all sounds so much like Russy Wilson in the 14NFCC.  Was his performance in that game one of the greatest performances in a playoff game by a QB?  Not even close.   But he nailed it in crunch time when the Packers laid it out on a platter for him.  I give him credit for that just like I Brady credit for his crunch time performance.  But that doesn't erase the 3 quarters before it.  Like so many of us said about Favre's comebacks, the Pats wouldn't have had to make that comeback if Brady had played better in the first 45min.  

michiganjoe posted:

The Hightower play was on a third and one. Easy to blame Shanahan for not sticking with the run in that situation.

Not on Shanahan but Quinn. That is what a HC gets paid to do in those situations, take notice of the time left, etc., and make the right calls. These guys from Seattle gave two SB's away to the Patriots in three years.

Send it to Tschmack.

I think that was photo-shopped.

Here's a thought experiment. Brady will be thought of as the G.O.A.T. He's got the rings, but...

If you replaced Brady with Rodgers what would the result have been?

The Birds ran the ball 5 times with a 28-3 lead. 5.

For as much schit as MM gets for going conservative/prevent offense with big leads, you do wonder if Shanahan took a page out of MM's play calling, his team is probably getting fitted for a SB ring.