2015 (Team 95) Packers @ Vikings 7:25 LFT GDT

I blame a lot of the WR struggles on Van Pelt.  This group of receivers have the worst route running I have ever seen.  I should say Adams and Cobb have the worse route running I have ever seen.  I will throw Richard Rodgers in there too.    They don't complete the route and also stand around a lot when Rodgers scrambles.   This should not be tolerated.  James Jones runs the routes well, but he just isn't a speedster. 

It isn't all on the receivers.  Rodgers has been off all year and he still is.  He misses throws that he attempts and he also misses throws that were available, but didn't take. 

Another thing that pisses me off is the lack of emotion from Rodgers in recent weeks.  He just walks off to the sideline with that same dumb expression after another bad play.  On the sidelines you used to see him going over plays and such with the coaches.  He now stands alone on the sideline.  Something is definitely up internally with this team. 

I had such high expectations for the team this year.  I never expected this to happen.  I really expect changes to be made this offseason.  I don't want a total house cleaning, but enough to get some new mojo at 1265 Lombardi Ave.  It is lacking this year. 

Back when McCarthy and Payton were being considered for the coaching gig, I didn't know anything about either of them.
Based on enthusiasm, body language and his desire, I wanted Payton.

packerboi posted:

EDIT: I can't remember which local news rag had the quote, but an NFC scout was asked about the GB WR's earlier this season and he said it's widely known in the NFL that if you smack our WR's in the mouth, they will fold. He mentioned both Adams and Cobb in particular and if you review games this season especially you can see it. They don't handle jams at the LOS well and won't fight to stay in their routes. They also do little if anything to fight for a ball that is 50/50 to either them or the DB. To me, that's much more of a coaching indictment than it is a talent issue. These WR's are just soft.

This discussion on Bill Michaels show sorta hit on that.  Not sure if that was the one you're referring to though, as this was more about precise route running more than that the WRs fold when jammed at line.  

Thing is, they weren't "soft" or bad route runners last year.   I know as a fan base we've now entered the "it can't just be Jordy" space, but I do think that is the biggest issue by far.  Our OL has never been stellar and our offense has kept rolling.  Our run game has always been the beneficiary of our passing game, not vice versa.  Cobb and Adams were getting open last year.  

It really boils down to the fact that without Jordy we have no WR that can beat you deep.  Or we don't put a WR in the position to do that. That allows the DBs to bunch up on all the short routes that Jordy (or a deep threat) helped clear out in the past.  

So, the questions I have are this:
1.  Have we/are we using Cobb like we did Jordy?  I don't think we are in any significant fashion as he sure appears to be running mainly short routes.  Perhaps it has been tried and he's not that guy because as the Michaels discussion indicates, he doesn't run routes crisply and precisely enough to be utilized that way?  Is this a lack of skill on Cobb's part or is this MM not putting him in the best spot to succeed?  It just feels like instead of "moving 3 to 2 and 2 to 1", we gave up on the #1 WR routes/philosophy.  Or we are and we don't have the WR to do the #1 guy's job.  

2. If Cobb isn't that guy for the #1 spot and I think all evidence points to that, why aren't we at least trying a speed guy like 83/84 in that space?  Remember the passes to Jordy along the sidelines where he'd run past a DB, catch the ball and then angle to the middle of the field for big yards?  I can't recall one completion like that this year.  Are 83/84 really that bad in practice that we can't have Janis or Abby running some deep routes that help clear some portion of the field?  It's clear that Cobb and Adams can't do this, and hell Jones is our best deep threat and he's 145 years old, but he at least has some skill at getting open.  You don't even need to throw the freaking ball to them, but wouldn't having them clear out some space by running deep routes that have to be covered more than 15 yards down field would help?  

3. How many times last night alone did you see all 3 WRs simply run straight ahead into coverage and stand around.  Again, I continue to think that these are the same routes they were running last several years, but without a deep threat like Jordy, you can simply contain these routes easily.  

I don't know that our WRs are soft.  They weren't soft in 2014.  Cobb has never appeared to be soft before. Adams looked anything but soft in the playoffs.  

I do believe that the lack of a deep threat on the field makes it much easier for the defense to defend us.  Whether we have no deep threat, or we choose to not utilize the deep threats is the bigger question I have.  If we simply don't have that guy, then we need to address it in offseason, because while I hope Jordy comes back just as strong, he's an NFL WR coming off ACL at 30 years of age.  If we have the guy and McCarthy chooses not to utilize him, then that's a different problem...

I wanted Payton too, but the Saints have had their struggles as well. This year has me baffled. Even when they started out 6-0 I just couldn't get excited by the offense. The special teams and defense are both good enough to make a playoff run, but there seems to be little hope for an offensive turn around.

Regarding Jordy. First and foremost he and Rodgers have that QB/WR thing. I don't know how to explain what that thing is, but they have it. Jordy sees coverage the way AR sees coverage. Maybe a bigger reason they work so well together is that as far as Aaron is concerned, Jordy is never covered. His catch radius is nuts and they have that whole timing thing down. How many guy's have you seen with separation but AR doesn't pull the trigger this year?

If you can stomach it, go back and watch the play in Pitt when Jordy was injured. Jordy showed a go route. AR took three steps and the ball was out before Jordy broke off his route. It was so quick and clean the DB went down in a heap. The easiest 8 yard reception I've seen all year. The kind of quick 8 yard catch Jordy makes and turns up the sideline for 30. 

Finally, AR has to miss Jordy immensely. Not for the yards or TD's or passer ratings. No matter how ****ed up things got with the offense with receivers running bad routes or made mental mistakes off the line. Aaron always had that 8 yard stick route to Jordy, or the bullet slant out of motion, or the back shoulder to stop the bleeding and get everything back on track or Jordy flashing across the middle and breaking back outside on a dime. It's not there and Aaron has no safety net. No plan B. Other than to break the pocket and hope A, a DB falls down or B, a DB commits a penalty. 

And include me in the group that can't believe Abby isn't getting more snaps. When you need a competent route runner I think it's important your best pure route runner get's a little playing time. 

I hope that Jordy is back, bigger and better than ever.

What killed the Packers offense this year is the lack of a true #1 receiver, a guy that Rodgers could go to on third down and count on to be in the right place,at the right time, and make the catch of a ball even if not perfectly thrown.  That's what he means when he talks about his WR's needing to have the "trust" of the QB.

While Jordy has been the guy the past 3 years, it was Jennings who was that guy before him from 2008-2011.  (Nelson only caught 45 passes in the regular season in 2010).  Nobody--Cobb, Adams, Jones---was able to step up to that role this year, to be the guy to be in a spot to consistently make a contested third down catch and keep a drive going.

Hopefully Jordy will be able to regain his form next year, but if not the offense will struggle until a "go to" WR emerges.

CAPackFan95 posted:

 

So, the questions I have are this:
...

2. If Cobb isn't that guy for the #1 spot and I think all evidence points to that, why aren't we at least trying a speed guy like 83/84 in that space?  Remember the passes to Jordy along the sidelines where he'd run past a DB, catch the ball and then angle to the middle of the field for big yards?  I can't recall one completion like that this year.  Are 83/84 really that bad in practice that we can't have Janis or Abby running some deep routes that help clear some portion of the field?  It's clear that Cobb and Adams can't do this, and hell Jones is our best deep threat and he's 145 years old, but he at least has some skill at getting open.  You don't even need to throw the freaking ball to them, but wouldn't having them clear out some space by running deep routes that have to be covered more than 15 yards down field would help?  

3. How many times last night alone did you see all 3 WRs simply run straight ahead into coverage and stand around.  Again, I continue to think that these are the same routes they were running last several years, but without a deep threat like Jordy, you can simply contain these routes easily.  

 

2. Physically, I think Janis is the one guy who could do it, but mentally, he can't. We saw before how he didn't press the corner to the middle of the field to give himself space to work along the sideline, nor did he track the ball well. We saw the Vikings receiver make the same mistake in the corner of the end zone last night. Jones did on his big catch, but he lacks the speed to be a consistent threat. I don't like to be that guy but that looks like he's either not very bright or the coaching sucks. 

Heck, the Vikings covered Cobb with a mediocre-in-coverage safety much of the game.

3. This was very bothersome. When you line up in a bunch formation and then just split directly from where you started really misses the point of that formation and the options it gives you.  Part of the reason it appears they could cover Cobb with a mediocre safety is because his route tree was so predictable.   

When Abby was at Wisconsin he absolutely destroyed Bradley Roby of Ohio State when OSU left him in single coverage. Roby now starts for the Broncos. Think about that. Why didn't he get more snaps?

I'd like to see MM take the training wheels off his players. One of the talking heads said last night that AR needed to be allowed to go deep on some throws and that he was being treated like a second-year guy. After giving that some thought, I would say that is true of Janis and Abby. Just let them play for pete's sake. Even with the old standbys out there, our offense is going nowhere so take the training wheels off Janis and Abby. At this rate we're going nowhere, so why not try something different? I'm bored with this offense doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...

So which players are back on offense next year? Other than Jones and Starks every other significant player is under contract. Who do you get rid of?  The offense is loaded with 1st to 4th round draft picks. 

1st: Rodgers, Bulaga

2nd and 3rd: Lacy, Adams, Cobb, Montgomery, RichRod, Sitton, Nelson

4th: Bakhtiati

thats a lot of TTs draft picks the last 4 years or so plus AR and Jordy. 

Replacing those two could be enough. I'd like to see a speedy outside receiver and a toy RB drafted. A trio of Lacy/Crockett/toy would be fine, though it gets crowded if Cobb and Montgomery also get toy snaps. 

DaVante Adams is the frustrating young James Jones, who was Robert Ferguson 2.0. It's not bad to have a guy like that, but when two of your top three are those guys, fuhgeddaboudit!

Herschel posted:

Physically, I think Janis is the one guy who could do it, but mentally, he can't. We saw before how he didn't press the corner to the middle of the field to give himself space to work along the sideline, nor did he track the ball well. We saw the Vikings receiver make the same mistake in the corner of the end zone last night. Jones did on his big catch, but he lacks the speed to be a consistent threat. I don't like to be that guy but that looks like he's either not very bright or the coaching sucks.

Janis!' biggest problems as a receiver (aside from the mental/preparation aspect, which frankly, none of us know jack **** about for sure despite all the know-it-alls outside of 1265) is that he is utterly unrefined as a route runner and ability to cope with NFL-level DBs, technique-wise. Watch him. I have and it's just glaring.

In the game thread last night titmfatied was railing about the lack of WR development, and indeed, regression this season. As have many of us as the season has gone on. AVP ain't the answer and its obvious that the receivers are lacking fundamental-wise and fine-grain wise the way they were prepared under Jimmy Robinson's and Edgar's direct coaching.

Janis seems  destined  to be a Kassim Osgood,  a great special teams player for the Chargers for about seven years, including making the Pro Bowl three times as a special teams player---and was ostensibly on the roster as a WR.  Its frustrating that after being in the league two years he apparently can't master the route running skills that require him to be in a certain place at a certain time---but he does have the size, speed, mentality to be an excellent special teams player.

Maybe Janis hasn't mastered the art of running his routes right into the safety yet.

Maybe the Janis/Abby package is going to be displayed in the playoffs.  We have been toying with all these teams not to show the new offense. 

   JAPF, go kick your dog or something.

Dog's dead

Take that however you want.

When I posted that suggestion, I did consider that the dog was no more. Sorry to hear that JAPF.

I heard Dan Devine shot it.

Podcast:

 01/04/16 Eric Barancyzk joins Bill Michaels http://media.1057fmthefan.com/...ancyzk-112286692.mp3 

Worth a listen. 

The coaches can't teach Janis! 2 or  routes a game?

They can't teach him how to run the jet sweep?  

He can't take that damn bubble screen with Adam's and Cobb blocking?  

Abby can only see the field to take a punt when Hyde is banged up?

Capers?

Apparently that's expecting a lot from Janis. Guessing the reason you saw Thielen run such a successful jet sweep last night, must be due to the highly advanced offense that they ran at Mankato.  Or maybe McCarthy's not very good at thinking outside the box. 

Great pull, titm.

packerboi posted:

EDIT: I can't remember which local news rag had the quote, but an NFC scout was asked about the GB WR's earlier this season and he said it's widely known in the NFL that if you smack our WR's in the mouth, they will fold. He mentioned both Adams and Cobb in particular and if you review games this season especially you can see it. They don't handle jams at the LOS well and won't fight to stay in their routes. They also do little if anything to fight for a ball that is 50/50 to either them or the DB. To me, that's much more of a coaching indictment than it is a talent issue. These WR's are just soft.

You effing can't coach Heart and Toughness, at this stage either you've got it or you don't, Cobb is stealing Money and is soft, and Adams is a knucklehead...........and Soft

Troy posted:

I blame a lot of the WR struggles on Van Pelt.  

Wow!

I think Kurt Schottenheimer is to blame,

Again Cobb is stealing Money, and Adams is slow with bad hands, and Discount Double-check is trying to make him into the next Jordy

McGinn player ratings for game 16:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports...426z1-364204351.html

Jody posted:

Troy posted:

I blame a lot of the WR struggles on Van Pelt.  

Wow!

I think Kurt Schottenheimer is to blame,

Again Cobb is stealing Money, and Adams is slow with bad hands, and Discount Double-check is trying to make him into the next Jordy

 

Yeah, when a receiver runs awful routes, I tend to blame the receivers coach.  You can't coach talent, but you sure as hell can coach fundamentals.  These receivers are lacking in that category.   

http://sp1elite.com/2016/01/04...ou-got-my-message-2/

cuqui posted:

McGinn player ratings for game 16:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports...426z1-364204351.html

Pretty honest and good review. 

From Bob's review: 

OFFENSIVE LINE (1½

Obviously, the Packers couldn't line up another Sunday with Don Barclay subbing for LT David Bakhtiari (ankle). JC Tretter isn't a tackle, either, but he is an athlete with good feet. My inclination was to start Tretter outside with instructions to mirror DE Everson Griffen as best he could, and keep Josh Sitton at LG. The Packers wouldn't be able to run wide or off-tackle to the left, but their best chance of winning was pounding those A gaps with Sitton leading the charge. LG Lane Taylor wasn't great (three pressures, one "bad" run), but he wasn't a liability, either. He has some brawler in him. The mistake the Packers made with Sitton outside was thinking they could run their regular offense. The tone was set on the first play when Sitton whiffed on Griffen inside and Lacy was stacked up for gain of 1. Sitton gave it his all, but six pressures and two "bad" runs (all at the hands of Griffen) were almost impossible for the offense to overcome. T.J. Lang, who faces shoulder surgery in the off-season, showed increasing signs of wearing down. His totals were four pressures and one-half "bad" run. Almost all his problems came against all-out, underrated backup DT Tom Johnson. Bryan Bulaga, who missed half the Arizona debacle with an ankle injury, went the distance and performed well, especially in his shutout of the speedy Hunter. Zimmer blitzed on just 28.3% of passes because his four-man rushes were satisfactory. Corey Linsley, who was up and down, and Sitton had holding penalties.

From a fan: I believe the decision to play the all pro guard at LT cost the Pack the game...and is akin to playing Cobb at TE or Kuhn at WR the entire game. To have the game plan to pound the ball inside then have your best run blocker playing outside is a head scratcher.

At least play Tretter at LT and let Sitton do his thing to start the game and make the change later, if the run game stalled.

It highlights a team in turmoil and a roster of too much dead weight. If your backup tackles can't play, what is their role...to serve as practice fodder?

TT should be able to sign linemen off the street to provide more competence....but maybe he can only evaluate college players.

Sitton struggled all night with rushes coming at his outside shoulder and getting around the edge - exactly where you'd expect an OG to have problems when switched to tackle. 

This tells you how badly they managed personnel in terms of lacking a backup tackle that was at least a little below average. No one expects a Pro Bowler as a backup, but Barclay/Walker barely offered any resistance at all. 

McCarthy to all playoff teams.

TT can't be blamed in a vacuum about the backup tackle position.  Yes, more should have been done from the front office, but don't the OL coaching staff deserve some blame as well?  Can't they tell TT that Barclay and Walker aren't tackles?  That was obvious during the preseason games to an uneducated fan like me.  Can't the coaches compare Vujnovich (who's on the PS) and say he has a better chance (or someone else off the street) than Barclay and/or Walker at tackle?

That's assuming Vujnovich actually is any better. If you're handed three turds and told to pick the two best ones, that doesn't suddenly make them not turds. 

"we're gonna run our stuff"

I'm not making excuses for MM or TT, but if you watch other teams, the lack of talent and depth on offensive lines across the league is obvious.   Denver is a #1 seed, and it has been a problem here.