Bucks versus Nets - Eastern Conference Semifinals

@lambeausouth posted:

The Nets had no Kyrie, and Harden on 1 leg. It should have never been close, regardless of the officiating. Brooklyn had NO business being in this game. NONE!

The Bucks, with their not one, but two NBA All-Defensive Team First teamers, gave up 71 freaking points to Brooklyn in the second half.

The Bucks are world class chokers coached by a mental midget.

And let's not let Holiday off the hook. He's a bigger mental midget than Bledsoe. He was supposed to the be their stabilizer in half court offense and he threw up two airballs over a one-legged Harden .

😆

Simply Classic

I’m not saying they’re going to advance- but I’m not calling series. No way. The Nets aren’t that good.

@Boris posted:

😆

Simply Classic

It had all the greatest hits.

1. A 3rd quarter collapse after building a big lead.

2. A 3rd option (Bledsoe/Holiday) missing wide-open shots. Holidays air ball from 12 feet in the 4th quarter was one of the worst chokes I've ever seen. He looked like he was so nervous he couldn't move his arms.

3. Leaving Brook Lopez on the floor to give up wide-open 3s on defense or get toasted by an elite mid-range guy in drop coverage (2019 Kawhi/2020 Butler/2021 Durant) when there was no opposing big guy to guard. And then having Lopez stand at the  3-point line on offense and allowing him to be guarded by a guy 6 inches shorter.

4. Giannis missing FTs and committing G league-level turnovers (getting so nervous he drops a Middleton pass that should have been a tying dunk).

5. Having a guy go nuclear from 3 unexpectedly (Van Vliet/Green). Of course, watching Lopez try to close out against Green on those shots will likely shorten my life if I watch any replays.

6. Durant playing 48 minutes, but Bud figuring he'd better rest Giannis for at least 5.

7. Not putting Giannis on 2019 Kawhi/2020 Butler/2021 Durant.

Agreed. Holiday wilts like a piece of leaf lettuce left under the heat lamp.

Durant is the first player in NBA playoff history to put up at least 45/15/10 in a playoff game. And he did it in regulation. He played all 48 minutes. He’s 33 in just over three months, and the dude never freaking sat down.

Big time players dig deep, and find that extra something in the biggest of moments. When the pressure is on, they rise to the occasion.

As good as Giannis is, I think it’s clear that he’s just not mentally tough.

And Bud? I’m not even going to get angry anymore. I’m so used to his utter inability to do anything to help his team. He really is Mike McCarthy. Unfortunately, he won’t get canned with a ring on his finger. And now, we’ve wasted a good portion of our superstar player’s prime with inept coaching. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before.

@Tschmack posted:

With all due respect MC there is zero chance the Nets don’t advance now.

Yes Milwaukee will probably win game 6 just to get it to a game 7 but it’s still the NBA.  You think they want the Bucks to advance instead of the Nets?  No fucking way.  We all know how this movie ends.

The NBA didn't make Giannis drop a pass that should have been a dunk, force Holiday to throw up an air ball from 12 feet, or continue to play Brook Lopez in drop defense. The NBA doesn't need to fix these games. They know Bud is there to do his best to reduce the chances of a Bucks win and that guys like Giannis will somehow come up short even in a game where he goes for 34.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

The NBA didn't make Giannis drop a pass that should have been a dunk, force Holiday to throw up an air ball from 12 feet, or continue to play Brook Lopez in drop defense. The NBA doesn't need to fix these games. They know Bud is there to do his best to reduce the chances of a Bucks win and that guys like Giannis will somehow come up short even in a game where he goes for 34.

Exactly. There’s no smoking gun, no top secret email correspondence between the league and the officials. The league knows the Bucks feature the coaching equivalent of Terri Schiavo standing on the sidelines. All they have to do is wait for a high leverage moment to present itself, and either Bud will screw the pooch, or one of the Bucks’ big three will fold.

Did any of you watch game one of the NHL semis last night? The Montreal-Vegas series. The Habs were on a seven game winning streak coming in. After going down 3-1 to the Leafs, they won three in a row, then swept the next series against Winnipeg. Montreal was as hot as hot can be.

Then, they ran into the Golden Knights, with likely Vezina Trophy winner in Marc-Andre Fleury in the goal, and a stifling defense. The Selke (top defensive forward) will come down to Vegas Captain Mark Stone, and Bruin Patrice Bergeron.

Two elite defenders. And that defense stonewalled the Habs. Only rookie Badger Cole Caufield’s first playoff goal helped the Canadiens avoid the shutout.

That…is what elite defenses do. And hockey has 4 different forward lines. Stone’s not even on the floor the entire game.

The point? We have two elite defenders, playing against a team with two of their three Hall of Famers literally decimated by injuries. And we gave up 71 freaking points in the second half.

Forget our offensive woes. Thats a failure of epic proportions.

@lambeausouth posted:

Exactly. There’s no smoking gun, no top secret email correspondence between the league and the officials. The league knows the Bucks feature the coaching equivalent of Terri Schiavo standing on the sidelines. All they have to do is wait for a high leverage moment to present itself, and either Bud will screw the pooch, or one of the Bucks’ big three will fold.

Did any of you watch game one of the NHL semis last night? The Montreal-Vegas series. The Habs were on a seven game winning streak coming in. After going down 3-1 to the Leafs, they won three in a row, then swept the next series against Winnipeg. Montreal was as hot as hot can be.

Then, they ran into the Golden Knights, with likely Vezina Trophy winner in Marc-Andre Fleury in the goal, and a stifling defense. The Selke (top defensive forward) will come down to Vegas Captain Mark Stone, and Bruin Patrice Bergeron.

Two elite defenders. And that defense stonewalled the Habs. Only rookie Badger Cole Caufield’s first playoff goal helped the Canadiens avoid the shutout.

That…is what elite defenses do. And hockey has 4 different forward lines. Stone’s not even on the floor the entire game.

The point? We have two elite defenders, playing against a team with two of their three Hall of Famers literally decimated by injuries. And we gave up 71 freaking points in the second half.

Forget our offensive woes. Thats a failure of epic proportions.

We have three elite defenders if you count Tucker, and MIddleton is no slouch either.

Yes, and I don’t know how we give up that many points. At full health, I could see Brooklyn doing some damage offensively going on a run. A good coach makes an adjustment to slow them down.

The “run” went on for 24 minutes, and it was really just Durant.

Middleton had another poor shooting performance, going 8 for 22 (36%).

I’m just disgusted. The game, and the series, was there for the taking. As poorly as we’ve played for much of the series, we were somehow in the driver’s seat. We were still up 16 well into the third.

God damn it, this is so frustrating.

It’s pretty easy to score 71 points in the second half when Brook Lopez is standing 10 feet away and you are getting clean looks.  I mean, that was the ballgame.   Brooklyn went on their run by isolating Lopez defensively and he had no business being in the game.   Yet there’s Bud, doing what he does (nothing) to stop the bleeding.  

Giannis is one of the best defenders on the planet and can someone tell me why he wasn’t defending Durant?

I thought I’d feel better today about this but I don’t.  It’s like the meltdown against the Seahawks all over again.

@Tschmack posted:

Giannis is one of the best defenders on the planet and can someone tell me why he wasn’t defending Durant?

I think the concept is that they’re running high P&R anyway, so if they’re going to switch, what’s the point of putting Giannis there if he’s just going to be guarding the screener after. But we certainly saw that Durant was able to get to the rim a bunch of times- and that’s not going to happen if Giannis is there. And I prefer to see Durant not getting a chance to be comfortable.

The real problem- Lopez. He’s useless when Durant is at the 5. But there was Budenholzer, leaving him out there to close a full second too late on 3s allowing Jeff Green his moment in the sun…

I mean, isn’t that why they signed Torrey Craig in the offseason?  Yes, getting Tucker helped but JFC there is no way Jeff Green goes off like that if TC is defending him.  

Also, can someone tell me why Bobby Portis got zero minutes in game 5?  Yes, I get he’s not a defensive stopper.  But he’s a hell of a lot more athletic than Lopez and is actually more of a threat offensively that you have to account for.  

It is mind blowing just how utterly inept Bud is at making adjustments when things get challenging.  He’s so far in over his head it’s not even funny.  And once again, they find themselves behind the eight ball in a series they have no business trailing in.

I agree with most of the posts above about coaching, etc.  At the end of the day the Championship teams always have one guy they can give the ball to that can either:

1)  Create off the dribble to get a good jump shot.

2)  Create off the dribble and get to the rim.

3)  If fouled on either of these, they can make their free throws.

Dwayne Wade - Miami

Michael Jordan - Chicago

Kawhi Leonard - Toronto

Kobe Bryant - Lakers

Lebron James - Multipe teams

Durant  and Curry - Golden State

None of our "Big 3" fit the bill

The even more maddening this was that during the decisive run that got Brooklyn back in the game, the Bucks defense kept allowing Durant to go to his RIGHT. I know it's Durant and he is going to be good going to his left too, but you learn in middle school that if you have a choice you force a guy to his weak hand. It's easier to contest the jump shot when a guy's shooting hand is towards the middle of the court. The ballhandler has to take a split second longer to get the ball from his left hand to his shooting hand when he's pulling up.

Lopez has a huge advantage in terms of size over anybody the Nets have on the court. But if all he's going to do on offense is stand at the 3 point line where he might as well be a foot shorter for all he can accomplish, you can't win that matchup.

This article nails it:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/...r-is-not-that-coach/

@The Crusher posted:

This article nails it:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/...r-is-not-that-coach/

"I try it," an Eastern Conference coach texted CBS Sports on Tuesday night when I asked him why these great defenders are often kept off the greatest scorers. "It's interesting others don't." I then pressed the coach for what he made, in particular, of Bud's decision to keep Giannis off Durant down the stretch of Game 5.

"LOL," he wrote. "Dumb."

There is no strategy MP2.  I mean, it’s like Bud just rolls a basketball out there and tells them to play.  

His rotations and substitutions don’t make sense.  How is it that a one legged  James Harden can play 12 more minutes than Jrue Holiday?   How can Jeff Teague and Bobby Portis get zero minutes in this game, yet Pat C plays 32 minutes?  What?!?!?

The plays in crunch time make no sense either.   You cannot have Giannis as the primary ball handler at the end of games because something bad is going to happen, yet over and over again we see it and it makes me want to punch myself in the face.

The Bucks are wasting the talent on this team with Bud at the helm.  

@The Crusher posted:

This article nails it:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/...r-is-not-that-coach/

Giannis is not a finished product. He’s learning how. He had a short off-season when that kind of work gets done. The article shouldn’t say “isn’t”, it should say “isn’t yet”. The guy is 26 years old, ffs. When Durant was 26, he was losing a 3-1 lead to the Warriors the season before he joined them. No one was saying Durant was the best player in the NBA then.

I love how recency bias feeds the sports world… all of a sudden the shine is off the star of Giannis Antetokounmpo as if at age 26, growing up playing soccer in some ghetto in Athens was going to make him a finished product by 26. It’s fucking stupid…

@Tschmack posted:

There is no strategy MP2.  I mean, it’s like Bud just rolls a basketball out there and tells them to play.  

His rotations and substitutions don’t make sense.  How is it that a one legged  James Harden can play 12 more minutes than Jrue Holiday?   How can Jeff Teague and Bobby Portis get zero minutes in this game, yet Pat C plays 32 minutes?  What?!?!?

The plays in crunch time make no sense either.   You cannot have Giannis as the primary ball handler at the end of games because something bad is going to happen, yet over and over again we see it and it makes me want to punch myself in the face.

The Bucks are wasting the talent on this team with Bud at the helm.  

Jrue Holiday's minutes were limited by foul trouble, so that's one thing I'll give Bud a pass on.

Not playing Portis at all is baffling. You at least give him a few minutes to see if he can go on one of his 5-7 point runs in about 2 minutes of playing time. Also, other than Middleton, he might be their best offensive player in isolation if you have to settle for a jump shot. Instead, we got Elijah Bryant for 3 minutes? Bryant played ONE game this year for the Bucks and somehow he's a better option to steal minutes for you than a guy who was one of the top 3-point shooters in the league and at least has the length to bother guys on jumpshots.

@Music City posted:

Giannis is not a finished product. He’s learning how. He had a short off-season when that kind of work gets done. The article shouldn’t say “isn’t”, it should say “isn’t yet”. The guy is 26 years old, ffs. When Durant was 26, he was losing a 3-1 lead to the Warriors the season before he joined them. No one was saying Durant was the best player in the NBA then.

I love how recency bias feeds the sports world… all of a sudden the shine is off the star of Giannis Antetokounmpo as if at age 26, growing up playing soccer in some ghetto in Athens was going to make him a finished product by 26. It’s fucking stupid…

He is not a finished product but he is not a natural shooter, never will be.  I don't care if the guy works on his shot 24/7 for 365 days a year, he will never be a true shooter.  Nothing against Giannis, I love everything about the guy but the reality is you will never be able to give him the ball at the end of the game and rely on him like you can rely on players like Leonard, Durant , Bryant, Wade, etc.   We need to have someone on the roster that can do that.   It's not Middleton or Holiday either.

Here are my critiques from the game.

1)  Why were they doubling Harden when it was obvious he was a shell of himself?  Overplay the 3 and make him drive to the hoop.  It tests his hammy and the reality was he had no suddenness whatsover.  How long did it take for Bud to figure out that Jeff Green was the real threat out there?

2)  Have to get Lopez off the floor when he is offering nothing against Durant.  I think they should have tried Thanasis for god's sake.  What do they have to lose?  Also think you mix in Giannis on him even if he gets screened.  You just have to try something different in that case.

3)  Why do we fall apart in our offense sets when the going gets tough?  Holiday needs to run the offense and settle everyone down.  Chris Paul can do that but obviously Holiday is not CP.  Middleton was also horrendous with his ISO and forced shots.  He needs to play better.

4)  Why don't we pound it into Lopez?  How many times is Mike James guarding him when they switch?

5)  Minutes???  Kyrie was playing 45 minutes until he got hurt.  I know we had some foul trouble but Holiday, Giannis, everyone worthy needs to play more minutes.   Durant plays the whole game at almost 33 years old on a rebuilt achilles??????

@Music City posted:

Giannis is not a finished product. He’s learning how. He had a short off-season when that kind of work gets done. The article shouldn’t say “isn’t”, it should say “isn’t yet”. The guy is 26 years old, ffs. When Durant was 26, he was losing a 3-1 lead to the Warriors the season before he joined them. No one was saying Durant was the best player in the NBA then.

I love how recency bias feeds the sports world… all of a sudden the shine is off the star of Giannis Antetokounmpo as if at age 26, growing up playing soccer in some ghetto in Athens was going to make him a finished product by 26. It’s fucking stupid…

I agreed with some of the points in the article (mainly that Giannis has not added anything that resembles a go-to half-court move that doesn't involve dunking the ball after an athletic drive and spin), but the paragraph below was the most ridiculous. I agree he's not close to Durant, but there is no one close to Durant that's ever lived in terms of offensive skill. Steph Curry may be a slightly better shooter, but Durant is 9 inches taller than Curry and almost as good. Giannis isn't as good as Embiid?? - a guy who just went 0 for 12 in the second half against the Atlanta Hawks to lose a close game? Jokic? LeBron James has had his moments in terms of scoring, but his titles were won in large part by Clutch Sports assembling super teams around him. LeBron is Pippen on steroids, he's not Jordan. Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving hit some of the most iconic shots in NBA history to basically win a couple of titles with LeBrons' teams. Everybody seems to forget LeBron bricking a 3 before Allen hit his step-back fadeaway 3 against the Spurs. By this criteria, LeBron really isn't that guy either.

So, yes, Giannis isn't Durant on offense, but no one else is like him either. On the dagger 3 that essentially ended the game last night to put the Nets up 4, Middleton played exceptional defense, denied him the ball until late in the shot clock, and had a hand in Durant's face only to see him hit an off-balance 27 foot 3 pointer at the shot clock buzzer.

We need to have the same conversation about Giannis. He is not that guy. He has more MVPs than Durant but he is not even close to Durant. Or LeBron James. Or Steph Curry. Or Kawhi Leonard. Or Nikola Jokic. Or Joel Embiid.

I don't disagree with you about Embid but the guy is playing on an injured right knee.  It was obvious it was bothering him in the last game.  He wouldn't be on the court if this was the regular season.  Embid is a MUCH better shooter than Giannis.

Lebron may not be the shooter that some of the others but you have absolute confidence giving him the ball at the end of the game.  He will muscle his way to the hoop or make the right pass.  That's where Giannis is a no show.  His skill set just isn't there.

@The Crusher posted:

I don't disagree with you about Embid but the guy is playing on an injured right knee.  It was obvious it was bothering him in the last game.  He wouldn't be on the court if this was the regular season.  Embid is a MUCH better shooter than Giannis.

He's a much better shooter than Giannis, but he's a softer player. Embiid missed a point-blank layup for the tie in the last game with under 10 seconds left. Some of it is genetics and bad injury luck (he sat out two years before he played a game due to foot issues). Some of it is that Embiid (at least up until recently) didn't take his own fitness and diet seriously.

Giannis will definitely put in the work. Whether it helps or not is another matter. Embiid has not been exactly a guy who spends hours perfecting his craft.

Embiid has all the physical tools but he’s one of most weak minded stars I’ve ever seen.  I also think he’s a bit lazy given his skill set.  That’s not Giannis at all IMO.  

Giannis shouldn’t be compared to anyone because his tools and skills are so unique given his 7 foot frame.   He’s an elite defender, an exceptional passer, and might be the most dominant post guy since Shaq. On the other hand, his jumper is still a work in progress and his FT shooting is atrocious.  

In a way, he reminds me of Allen Iverson the way he can just take over off the dribble and finish in transition. Like Iverson, he was a spotty 3pt shooter and struggled at times in the half court game.  He played 1,000 miles an hour and his game made it somewhat tough for other teammates to adapt.

Durant and Steph Curry are very similar players.   Can score and shoot at will.   At times you cannot guard either of them.  Not exactly physical or imposing on the defensive end, but are so dominant offensively it doesn’t matter.  

I actually think the biggest issue with Giannis is he may work too hard and think too much.  You hear this all the time that the “game starts to slow down” for some athletes once they learn all the nuances.   Giannis isn’t there yet, but we still need to remind ourselves that he’s only 26.  KD has refined his game but he couldn’t carry OKC on his own.

The most disappointing thing is that really only one thing has really surprised me in this series. It's mostly been about the Bucks losing because of the same problems that cost them the 2019 Raptors series and the 2020 Heat series (stubborn adherence to the drop defense, Giannis FT shooting, and stagnant halfcourt 4th quarter offensive sets).

The one thing that has shocked me is how poorly Holiday has played. He was supposed to be the difference. No more Bledsoe collapses and terrible shooting performances. That airball from 12 feet the last time they went to Holiday last night was atrocious. An airball on an uncontested shot from 12 feet? He's become Bledsoe, except they owe him a max contract for the next 4 years. I really, really thought he was going to be the difference. Middleton has not shot great either, but he's been adequate and the Nets prioritize not giving him good looks which opens up the floor for others. The Nets are letting Holiday get anything he wants. If he shoots even as well as MIddleton is during this series, the Bucks have probably already won this series. If the Nets had a healthy Harden and Irving, sure you'd expect a loss, but with what has happened, Holiday's disappearing act has been the most unexpected.

Exactly… the kid’s 26 years old. 10 years ago he was selling knockoff sunglasses for meal money in a flea market in Athens. His rise has been meteoric. But now it’s the little things.

The best comparison (not game but development) is Hakeem Olajuwon. Hakeem entered the league and was dominant, but raw.

And at age 26 Giannis is being asked to do so much more. Olajuwon was great, then next leveled it when he turned 30. Giannis is growing and has a shot to be an All Time top 10 player. If he stays healthy, with his work ethic, he’ll be that. And the Title will come. He’s no flash in the pan.

I do wonder with Holiday if he’s got some long haul COVID19 issues in terms of energy and stamina.  He does not look like the same player right now he was before getting sick.  

We also need to remember he’s putting in solid work defensively and Kyrie and KD might be two of the most difficult guys in the league to defend.  

For the life of me I don’t understand why Bud isn’t playing Teague even 10 minutes a game.  He’s a solid backup and a very good distributor.   He also doesn’t turn the ball over much.

@Tschmack posted:

For the life of me I don’t understand why Bud isn’t playing Teague even 10 minutes a game.  He’s a solid backup and a very good distributor.   He also doesn’t turn the ball over much.

As soon as it became apparent that Harden was going to be as limited as he was, it opened up a lot of personnel opportunities for Bud. All you needed was for someone to stand in front of him. He was no threat to drive by anyone. If he did it against a weaker defender, you could always run someone else in at the next dead ball, but he was a statue. You could have put Portis, Teague, really anyone on him last night. They were hesitant to bring him into the pick and roll because he didn't have the mobility to even do that. Instead, the Bucks treated him like the HOFer he was if he was completely healthy.

I think the Bucks win this series… I don’t think Durant can do again what he did last night.

He will if the Bucks allow him to do it. Will Bud learn?

Pretty much how I thought things would go.

Lol… the Bucks are so stupid…

I think the Bucks should take more long 3s. I guess that's what Bud got out of the Game 5 loss?

The best of Giannis (the drives) and the worst of Giannis (the FTs) all in the first quarter.

Up 7, but Giannis leaves 4 points at the line.

Giannis commits a violation every FT attempt. Giannis and whoever allowed this are idiotic for doing this, but the NBA is even worse for not nipping this in the bud and calling it right away.

Harden flopped about 6 times before he finally got a foul on Giannis. Harden acted like Giannis hit him with a 2 by 4 when he got brushed against.

Harden is pushing off with his forearm every time he handles the ball. Did the NBA just decide he can do that? Just like they decided that Giannis can take 14 seconds at the line?

Bucks decided to fall apart earlier than the second half tonight. Nets go 7-0 with Durant resting.