Grave Digger posted:How about we trade for Eric Berry, that would probably make Dom look like a genus again.
A vet in that secondary coupled with some consistent health would go a long way.
One would think McCarthy is deep thinking enough to realize it's been the defense that has killed his seasons , right ? If he realizes that's been the case (repeatedly) and he doesn't find fault with Capers, he must see the defensive shortcomings as a result of a couple of things. Is he using the injury excuse and/or does he think the talent is insufficient ?
When the season started, everyone (me included) thought this secondary was going to be a strength. It was apparent very early on that it wasn't. They almost blew the Jacksonville game, and steadily eroded as the injuries mounted and the season went on.
They need veterans of quality (expensive) and new prospects. They cannot go into the 2017 season with Gunter and Brice and whomever else was getting shredded by Dallas and Atlanta.
But Randall/Rollins? Can't throw them away yet.
Respectfully, gentlemen, I'm beyond tired of the injuries crutch. It's the NFL. Injuries happen. The offense was playing a wide receiver at halfback, and missing a top 5 receiver in the NFL, yet they managed to put up 34 points in beating Dallas at home, the #1 seed that had two weeks to prepare, and was in near perfect health on defense.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. I said (and was called out for) Capers needed to go a few years ago. Well, here we are again, falling short of the Super Bowl because our defense was whipped like a dog. The hardest position in all of pro sports to fill is the quarterback position. There are maybe 4-5 elite passers at any one time. We've had the highest rated QB in NFL history under center, and healthy, for the majority of the last nine years. We've been to one Super Bowl with him.
2009, we lost to Arizona giving up 51 (the D was responsible for all but the fumble return TD)
2011, we gave up 37 to the G Men
2012, we gave up 45 to the San Francisco Kaepernicks
2013, we only surrendered 23 to the same Niners.
2014, we gave up 28 to the Seahags
2015, we gave up 26 to the Cardinals in an OT game.
2016, we gave up 44 to the Falcons.
Taking 7 off for the Rodgers fumble return, that's an average of 35.3 ppg our defense has surrendered in seven playoff losses, including three times where the D surrendered over 40.
Know how many times the New England Patriots have surrendered 40 + points in a playoff game in the Tom Brady era (2001-2016)? 33 games, and they've never given up 40 +. Not once. Yet the Packers have given up 40 + three times in sixteen playoff games in the Rodgers era. We scored 97 points in the three games.
I am tired of watching our corner backs lining up ten yards off the receiver. I am tired of watching people like Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, Odell Beckham, Jr et all running at a full sprint after three steps, and our cover guys having to run their arses off just to catch the guys about to get the ball. That's not a talent issue. A fat guy in a little coat can jam a receiver off the line. And when you're going up against somebody like Matt Ryan, who has been ridiculously dialed in this year, AND he's playing at home with no elements to contend with, it's a recipe for disaster.
We gave up 493 yards to the Falcons.
We gave up 579 yards to the 49ers in 2013.
We gave up 531 yards to the Cardinals in 2009.
First playoff loss in the Rodgers era, the most recent, and the one smack in the middle. 1,603 yards given up by the Capers-coached defenses.
Let me repeat that. 1,603 yards surrendered....in three games. The one constant in these repeated implosions has been Dom Capers. The man has been given a plethora of high draft picks, and his unit still folds like a cheap suit when pressure is applied.
I want him gone. Period. End of story. I'm sick of seeing Aaron Rodgers' career being wasted because he has to play near perfect football every time we go up against a top contender in the playoffs.
Grave Digger posted:Could be that McCarthy doesn't see another coordinator out there that he thinks is an upgrade ....
I think this just might be it. Having said that, I hope MM does not think this year was some sort of injury induced anomaly. Packers play-off losses come at the hands of enormous yards and points given up and that has been a trend for many years.
Dre Kirkpatrick and Trumaine Johnson are both 6'2" and coming off mehhh seasons for teams that were bad. Both have expressed desire to leave to go to a place to win.
There's your starting point...
lambeausouth posted:Respectfully, gentlemen, I'm beyond tired of the injuries crutch. It's the NFL. Injuries happen. The offense was playing a wide receiver at halfback, and missing a top 5 receiver in the NFL, yet they managed to put up 34 points in beating Dallas at home, the #1 seed that had two weeks to prepare, and was in near perfect health on defense.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. I said (and was called out for) Capers needed to go a few years ago. Well, here we are again, falling short of the Super Bowl because our defense was whipped like a dog. The hardest position in all of pro sports to fill is the quarterback position. There are maybe 4-5 elite passers at any one time. We've had the highest rated QB in NFL history under center, and healthy, for the majority of the last nine years. We've been to one Super Bowl with him.
2009, we lost to Arizona giving up 51 (the D was responsible for all but the fumble return TD)
2011, we gave up 37 to the G Men
2012, we gave up 45 to the San Francisco Kaepernicks
2013, we only surrendered 23 to the same Niners.
2014, we gave up 28 to the Seahags
2015, we gave up 26 to the Cardinals in an OT game.
2016, we gave up 44 to the Falcons.
Taking 7 off for the Rodgers fumble return, that's an average of 35.3 ppg our defense has surrendered in seven playoff losses, including three times where the D surrendered over 40.
Know how many times the New England Patriots have surrendered 40 + points in a playoff game in the Tom Brady era (2001-2016)? 33 games, and they've never given up 40 +. Not once. Yet the Packers have given up 40 + three times in sixteen playoff games in the Rodgers era. We scored 97 points in the three games.
I am tired of watching our corner backs lining up ten yards off the receiver. I am tired of watching people like Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, Odell Beckham, Jr et all running at a full sprint after three steps, and our cover guys having to run their arses off just to catch the guys about to get the ball. That's not a talent issue. A fat guy in a little coat can jam a receiver off the line. And when you're going up against somebody like Matt Ryan, who has been ridiculously dialed in this year, AND he's playing at home with no elements to contend with, it's a recipe for disaster.
We gave up 493 yards to the Falcons.
We gave up 579 yards to the 49ers in 2013.
We gave up 531 yards to the Cardinals in 2009.
First playoff loss in the Rodgers era, the most recent, and the one smack in the middle. 1,603 yards given up by the Capers-coached defenses.
Let me repeat that. 1,603 yards surrendered....in three games. The one constant in these repeated implosions has been Dom Capers. The man has been given a plethora of high draft picks, and his unit still folds like a cheap suit when pressure is applied.
I want him gone. Period. End of story. I'm sick of seeing Aaron Rodgers' career being wasted because he has to play near perfect football every time we go up against a top contender in the playoffs.
This. Plus all the points we gave up to Dallas in the win. Ridiculous. And just plumb STUPID to not bump the Falcon receivers at the start of the route. It's like playing not to lose, like Mike Sherman did against the Eagles on the road.
Say what you will about Bellichick, but his teams reflect his no nonsense toughness. maybe Pittsburgh Macho could learn a thing or two even though he is undoubtedly a "very successful NFL coach."
Grave Digger posted:Except Kevin Greene left on his own and obviously wasn't too sore at Dom as Big D was his presenter at his HOF induction. Woodson bitching about adjustments isn't the same as not communicating. You have valid complaints with Dom, these here are not among them.
Green wants to return, Capers says "No"
I can't find the link right now where it dawned on Capers he needs to talk to his players. Just dig through the other 22 fire Dom threads from the last 5 years, you'll find it.
DOM CAPERS IS AN OUTSTANDING FOOTBALL COACH.
He is. I'm serious, he really is....So was Vince Lombardi, who left the Packers....so was Mike Holmgren, who left the Packers. Shelf life of a coach is about 8-10 years. I like Mike McCarthy. I want him to stay because he has been dynamic & the offense is constantly changing to keep up with the time & they continue to score points thanks to scheme & Aaron Rodgers ability. The offense has injuries. No RB's, WR's in & out of the lineup. O-Lineman getting hurt, yet the offense keeps on rolling. The defense?? Not so much
We have talent on defense. A lot of talent. It's time to start getting the most out of that talent & change up the scheme on defense.
If Mike Zimmer was the DC in Green Bay, I assure you, the Falcons wouldn't have scored 44 points.
DOM CAPERS IS AN OUTSTANDING FOOTBALL COACH.
He is....he really truly is. We won a Super Bowl with Dom as DC. However, it's time to move forward & make a change. Make the other 31 teams work to score & give them all new tape to view from a new DC. Please Mike.....PLEASE!
bigdoggyjude posted:I think this just might be it. Having said that, I hope MM does not think this year was some sort of injury induced anomaly. Packers play-off losses come at the hands of enormous yards and points given up and that has been a trend for many years.
I doubt McCarthy blames injuries, he's not an excuse maker. I think, as a coach, he sees the issue as an execution problem which is only natural that he has that perspective. Someone brought up Charles Woodson's criticism in 2012 or 2013 whenever it was. As a player he sees it as a coaching issue because he knows he executed and he saw other guys grinding. That doesn't mean Woodson is right though, doesn't necessarily mean McCarthy is right. Ultimately the two options are:
1) Fire Dom and his staff and replace them with the best coaches available. Right now the best guys available are from the 32nd ranked 49ers, 30th ranked Browns, 29th ranked Chargers, 25th ranked Jaguars, 21st ranked Packers, or 19th ranked Redskins. It's debatable, but you're likely not going to find someone markedly better.
2) Power through Dom's mediocrity and give him a defense even he can't screw up. Draft BPA instead of projects, maybe bring in some FAs, and improve depth.
Option 2 seems easier IMO.
Communication (a more positive spin, results still stunk)
Communication That most definitely was not the case Monday, from Williams, one of the elder statesmen on defense; to Capers, whose open office door his first few years in Green Bay only had one guy â Charles Woodson â walking through it for heart-to-heart meetings; to head coach Mike McCarthy, who cited multiple reasons for the defensive turnaround before acknowledging that communication was key.
According to Williams, in the past, some defensive players saw Capers as unapproachable â either because they didn't think he'd take their suggestions under advisement, or for fear of coming across as disrespectful to one of the NFL's most admired defensive coordinators. Capers, meanwhile, went about his work not knowing that there was sometimes grumbling about his calls and schemes, since really only one player â Woodson â had ever taken it upon himself to speak up.
This is not a new issue with the defense
Grave Digger posted:Maybe he is. Some GMs are better at finding some positions than other. John Schneider can't find a quality OL to save his soul. Same for Ozzie Newsome. Kevin Colbert also struggled with that for a long time.
I was being facetious. Nobody is a worse judge of defensive talent than Sherman was.
Point being is the Wizard needs some more assistant to the assistant coaches on the defensive side of the ball other than Winston Moss if he's staying, which is a piss poor bandaid. There is a disconnect between the Wizard Chambers and the soldiers on the field.
Dr.-Ka-Bong posted:Green wants to return, Capers says "No"
I can't find the link right now where it dawned on Capers he needs to talk to his players. Just dig through the other 22 fire Dom threads from the last 5 years, you'll find it.
Again, obviously Dom wasn't too harsh on him because he thought enough of the man to have him at his HOF induction. Greene left on his own, they filled his job, and then didn't want to fire the guy they had when Greene wanted to return. Tell me again what's wrong with that? Also Dom doesn't staff changes, McCarthy also agreed with this decision. I will say it again, you have valid criticisms of Dom, but this is not one of them.
Find me an article that is 1 year old or from 2016 saying communication is still an issue. You're throwing out stuff that is 3, 4, 5 years old yet every time someone brings up the successful 2010 season it's like ancient history that shouldn't even factor in. You're speculating, based on old information, that this is still a problem. Grasping at straws.
My take has always been that while possessing a great defensive mind, Dom can be somewhat oblivious to determining how much "scheme" or game specific changes to schemes, players can comprehend. Some games it appears the defense is "assignment sure", players look settled & ready well before the snap, and players are seamless when passing receivers on when in zone. Other games the players look unsettled, players don't appear sure what defense they are in, players are not in a stance at the snap, players unsure about when to pass receivers off in zone, when they will have safety help, etc. Of course as always, I realize that I am not on the "inside" and my perception may be incorrect.
We can all pull the 'contrary' card in regards to anybody's opinion on the 'why' regarding the defensive woes but isn't the body of work enough to move in a different direction? Also, it seems fairly obvious that a Dom defense excels with an alpha dog and they have had one during his tenure. Is there one on the roster now? Doesn't appear to be. Will they go get one? Not likely.
I just can no longer give Capers a pass because of injuries. The same types of issues crop up every year - getting gashed in the run game, collapses at the end of halves/game, numerous chunk plays per game, blitzes that rarely get home, backfield communication breakdowns, etc. I will say that tackling has appeared to improve.
I also don't buy the argument that there aren't better coaches out there. I posted in another thread that I greatly admire Marinelli for getting mostly JAGs to play together as a unit and play well. At first I didn't like the idea posited by others here, but I wonder if Lovie Smith might be an upgrade. Dom rarely runs a base 3-4, so I don't there is much of a transition. I really don't like the Tampa 2, but it has its advantages if it is one part of a scheme. You could never question how the Bears defense rallied to the ball, forced turnovers and generally played well as a unit.
I think it should be said that fans like to try and pinpoint one particular area of failure. While Dom and aspects of the defense are to blame (and I do believe it's time for a change) it really can't be understated about the need for some flexibility in the draft and develop approach as Rodgers is getting older. Develop your guys but realize a rookie/2nd year player is still going to play like a rookie/2nd year at times.
Point being if the vets you have can't cover up the sins of young developing guys there needs to be a little more risk taking and decisive action in helping to fill the void.
Yes, there will be Marquand Manuels but maybe you hit on a Lorenzo Alexander, even if for one season. If the FO is providing a bit more flexibility in player acquisition then there is no excuse for The Wizard.
I still think they have a lot of dead weight on that defensive coaching staff but if TT goes "hog wild" and brings in a vet or two the expectations are pretty much Superbowl or banish the Wizard.
edit: To wit, MM is the one that needs to make sure both sides of the ball are playing competent football instead of this one random piston not firing bull**** we've seen lately.
Henry posted:Grave Digger posted:Maybe he is. Some GMs are better at finding some positions than other. John Schneider can't find a quality OL to save his soul. Same for Ozzie Newsome. Kevin Colbert also struggled with that for a long time.
I was being facetious. Nobody is a worse judge of defensive talent than Sherman was.
Point being is the Wizard needs some more assistant to the assistant coaches on the defensive side of the ball other than Winston Moss if he's staying, which is a piss poor bandaid. There is a disconnect between the Wizard Chambers and the soldiers on the field.
Denny Green wants to have a word with you.
Henry posted:Grave Digger posted:Maybe he is. Some GMs are better at finding some positions than other. John Schneider can't find a quality OL to save his soul. Same for Ozzie Newsome. Kevin Colbert also struggled with that for a long time.
I was being facetious. Nobody is a worse judge of defensive talent than Sherman was.
Point being is the Wizard needs some more assistant to the assistant coaches on the defensive side of the ball other than Winston Moss if he's staying, which is a piss poor bandaid. There is a disconnect between the Wizard Chambers and the soldiers on the field.
Denny Green wants to have a word with you.
Randall/Rollins was a lot of Carroll/Thomas this season.
So if McCarthy thinks Dom Capers is great, and "isn't one to use injuries as an excuse", then he must think the talent is lacking. Or maybe he just won't publicly use injuries as an excuse.
I'd like to know what is REALLY in McCarthy's head. It just seems to me he is giving a pat answer and he and everyone knows it is his answer no matter the performance on the field.
Nothing else makes any sense to me.
50k Club posted:I just can no longer give Capers a pass because of injuries. The same types of issues crop up every year - getting gashed in the run game, collapses at the end of halves/game, numerous chunk plays per game, blitzes that rarely get home, backfield communication breakdowns, etc. I will say that tackling has appeared to improve.
I also don't buy the argument that there aren't better coaches out there. I posted in another thread that I greatly admire Marinelli for getting mostly JAGs to play together as a unit and play well. At first I didn't like the idea posited by others here, but I wonder if Lovie Smith might be an upgrade. Dom rarely runs a base 3-4, so I don't there is much of a transition. I really don't like the Tampa 2, but it has its advantages if it is one part of a scheme. You could never question how the Bears defense rallied to the ball, forced turnovers and generally played well as a unit.
Yes 100% he would. There are better DC's than Dom IMO, none that are on the street right now though. Really good DC's are still employed, guys like Matt Patricia, Vic Fangio, Teryl Austin, etc., won't get the opportunity to switch jobs whether they want to or not...teams block those lateral moves. Mediocre DC's are on the street looking for work...guys like Rex Ryan, Ray Horton, Mike Nolan, etc. Those are guys who were maybe good once, but haven't called a successful D in a few years (remind you of anyone?). Just get some good fukking players in here and you negate any issue of a mediocre DC. We've seen so many early round draft picks on D who have under-performed...
2009:
BJ Raji - Good player overall
Clay Matthews - Good, productive pass rusher
2010:
Mike Neal - Under-performed, no longer in the league
Morgan Burnett - Good player, good pick
2012:
Nick Perry - Mixed results, some good, lots of injuries
Jerel Worthy - Terrible
Casey Hayward - Mixed results, no longer with team
2013:
Datone Jones - Under-performed, flashes of good but mostly mediocre
2014:
Haha Clinton-Dix - Good player
Khyri Thornton - Terrible
2015:
Damarious Randall - Mixed results, struggled with injuries
Quinten Rollins - Mixed results, struggled with injuries
2016:
Kenny Clark - Too soon, flashes starter potential
Kyler Fackrell - Too soon, flashes of being productive
Out of 12 early round picks that it's fair to judge, we have hit on 4 quality players with 1 of those 4 no longer with the team. 33% success rate pretty much blows. There are another 4 who have shown some good things, but overall haven't been available often enough to get a concrete opinion and 1 of those 4 is no longer with the team. That's 6 out of 12 draft picks who have either been good or intermittently good AND are still with the team. The 2016 D started, at various times, 10 players taken between rounds 4-UDFA including which is more than were taken between rounds 1-3. If you're going to play a lot of mid/late round or undrafted players, you better be hitting on those early picks.
1. Fire Dom and Moss
2. Thank you Julius and Datone. For everything. Best wishes. If Shields doesn't retire. Release him. This would put GB right at $44 million in available cap room.
3. Sign Chandler Jones. OLB Arizona. If AZ franchises Chandler...
3a. Sign AJ Bouye. CB Houston. (Contracts gonna be in the neighborhood of $70 million with guarantees but **** it)
4. Sign either Kevin Minter or Zach Brown. ILB.
5. Sign Lang, Cook, Goode and Tretter
6. Try and sign Lacy and Perry. But be prepared to let them walk. I think they can keep Lacy.
7. Try and draft another Edge rusher, WR, and G early in the draft.
8. Put Barclay on the next Greyhound out of town.
Packdog posted:So if McCarthy thinks Dom Capers is great, and "isn't one to use injuries as an excuse", then he must think the talent is lacking. Or maybe he just won't publicly use injuries as an excuse.
Or maybe he won't publicly use "Talent is lacking" as an excuse
Or maybe he won't publicly use "Def. Coaching is poor" as an excuse
ChilliJon posted:1. Fire Dom and Moss
2. Thank you Julius and Datone. For everything. Best wishes. If Shields doesn't retire. Release him. This would put GB right at $44 million in available cap room.
3. Sign Chandler Jones. OLB Arizona. If AZ franchises Chandler...
3a. Sign AJ Bouye. CB Houston. (Contracts gonna be in the neighborhood of $70 million with guarantees but **** it)
4. Sign either Kevin Minter or Zach Brown. ILB.
5. Sign Lang, Cook, Goode and Tretter
6. Try and sign Lacy and Perry. But be prepared to let them walk. I think they can keep Lacy.
7. Try and draft another Edge rusher, WR, and G early in the draft.
8. Put Barclay on the next Greyhound out of town.
Except for firing Dom my only quibble is with drafting a Guard early. I have a hunch they expect Murphy to fill that position as he fits the profile of every other Packers O-lineman except Linsley.
Considering their lack of pass rush and how hard it is to get good edge rushers, I don't see any way in hell they can let Perry get away. They need to re-sign him AND find another. Be it through draft or FA.
Bit of a risk involved with Perry given his history of injuries and I can easily see another team willing to overpay.
Every defense of note has a nick name. But not ours. So I will propose a few.
Capers Crappers
Defense of (our) Do(o)m
The End Zone Express
The Star Makers
Shredded Cheese
Stat Patters Inc.
With names like those the direction we need to go is obvious.
Wait till next year!
Originally posted by Grave Digger.
"Power through Dom's mediocrity and give him a defense even he can't screw up. Draft BPA instead of projects, maybe bring in some FAs, and improve depth"
"Just get some good fukking players in here and you negate any issue of a mediocre DC"
Which again brings us back to 2009. You mentioned the 2010 defense was an upgrade over 2009. Which may be true. But the 2009 defense was statistically as good as the 2010 defense. The 2010 defense gave up an NFL best 15 points per game. But during the regular season both defenses were very good.
You then pointed out that the 2009 Arizona offense was historically good. Only they weren't. They were historically average. But they managed 530 yards and 45 points on Dom in the playoffs. The following week Arizona scratched out 14 points against a very average Saints defense. And saying very average is being kind.
Dom Capers has failed over and over again. And thinking he's going to get the job done with better players is a pipe dream. He's had good defenses. And failed miserably. Repeatedly. He has to go.
Except for when he had actually good players and succeeded all the way to a SB win.
I was thinking of the 2008 Cardinal offense that had 3 receivers over 1,000 yards.
2017 is going to be a miserable year on X4 if this D isn't the '85 Bears. We need to make a separate Dom Capers Sucks forum because it's going to clog up the main forum.
yes, Dom can only be successful with a stable of great defensive players.
Since we never have that, might as well find someone who can elevate the crap Ted drafts for him. Clearly that aint dom
Don't need the 85 Bears. Just a defense that is somewhat assignment sure in January and forces teams to work through possessions and for points. This 37 point average allowed in playoff losses **** has to end.
But you know what. I have no ****ing idea what Tom Clements has been doing in GB since Mike stripped him of play calling and the offense started turning things around. But he hung out in Green Bay until he "decided to explore other options" after his contract expired. So I have little belief Dom is going anywhere until his contract expires. Whenever that is.
We agree on the first part. I'll take it. We're practically on the same side!
Defense of (our) Do(o)m
I like that.....I'm going to use it, giving you full credit of course!
The 2010 defense had a secondary that is easily one of the best Packers secondaries I have seen in my lifetime. Collins, Woodson, an ascending Williams, and a rookie Corner that was a revelation. A HOFer, an All Pro at his peak, and quality depth.
They had the DPOTY in Matthews, a stout front 3 with Pickett and Jenkins, and a solid ILB duo.
This team has none of that. The only two players that would would play on that team are HHCD and Perry. There's your problem...
The problem is GB has to have a historically great defense or they can't win a Super Bowl?
For the **** of it how many defensive players on the Patriots and Falcons roster make that team? Vic Beasley and Donte Hightower? Maybe? But they are still playing.
Music City posted:The 2010 defense had a secondary that is easily one of the best Packers secondaries I have seen in my lifetime. Collins, Woodson, an ascending Williams, and a rookie Corner that was a revelation. A HOFer, an All Pro at his peak, and quality depth.
They had the DPOTY in Matthews, a stout front 3 with Pickett and Jenkins, and a solid ILB duo.
This team has none of that. The only two players that would would play on that team are HHCD and Perry. There's your problem...
Don't forget peak BJ Raji