artis posted:

Shouldn't it be easier to appreciate the good stuff once he's gone? I liked MM, just like I liked Sherman. Both were kept beyond their effective date, but they contributed more good than bad in their respective tenures. I wasn't crazy about Holmgren in his final year. Doesn't mean I need to shit on him.

I understood why Holmgren left. He wanted to run the whole show and that wasn't going to happen in GB. But a LOT of people shit on Holmgren with the way things ended. People thought he was mentally checked out and looking ahead to his future gig in the 1998 season. Now imagine if his last two seasons only netted the team 13 wins. 

I think if he did stick around another 5-6 years there's probably another SB trip in there somewhere but I think we would have also seen Holmie and Favre clash much like Rodgers and MM did. 

13X posted:

The Packers were not the only 6th seed to win the SB. The 2005 Steelers did it. 

The Packers are the only 6 seed in the NFC. The Packers also won 19 in a row. Patriots never did that. 

Packers are the team nobody wanted to play. 

Today, that team is the Ravens

Boris posted:

 

Yeah he got put out to pasture after his expiration date. So fucking what? You can't change it. Move forward instead of crying about "what might have been"

 

^THIS^  As many have said it is freaking HARD to win a Super Bowl.  Everything has to align just perfectly for it to happen.  Would I have loved to have seen 2-3 more wins absolutely but why dwell so much on what happened in the past (guess what that can't be change by the way) and just enjoy the current season?

Damn by the way everyone is acting on this board this season you would think we are enduring another terrible season.  I honestly never would have thought in my lifetime I would see Packers fans so damn spoiled it makes me sad in a way.

People were irrationally angry at Holmgren for a while and now recognize he was a great coach in GB. Time will pass and the narrative will shift from McCarthy was an incompetent idiot to well he was good but he made a lot of mistakes to yeah he was great and we were lucky to have him. He made a lot of mistakes, as all coaches do, but probably his biggest sin was not walking away on his own terms. 

BrainDed posted:

You realize that is almost twice as long, right?   7x2=14.   You also realize that he had to go up against arguably the most successful NFL Dynasty ever in that 7 years?  

Dungy also wasted the time of a HOF defense in Tampa that another coach stepped in and immediately won a SB with. NFL HOFer though.

Boris posted:
13X posted:

The Packers were not the only 6th seed to win the SB. The 2005 Steelers did it. 

The Packers are the only 6 seed in the NFC. The Packers also won 19 in a row. Patriots never did that. 

 

Pats won 21 in a row broken by the Steelers. That's the only streak longer than the Packers. Also before MM's time in GB. 

Holmgren was a fantastic coach and I was annoyed how poorly he was treated when he left.   They were a stones throw away from winning 2 titles in a row and if not for the Jerry Rice non fumble who knows how the 1998 playoffs may have turned out?   

Again, there have been plenty of really good teams that haven’t won a Super Bowl.   We’ve had our fair share of good Packers teams falling just short - namely 1995, 1997, 2007, and 2014.   Hell, throw in 1998 and 2003 for good measure.   

At a minimum, the Packers should have 2-3 more titles as I am convinced they would have beaten Pittsburgh in 1995, should have beaten Denver in 1997, and may have been able to beat New England in 2007 or 2014. 

Grave Digger posted:

People were irrationally angry at Holmgren for a while and now recognize he was a great coach in GB. Time will pass and the narrative will shift from McCarthy was an incompetent idiot to well he was good but he made a lot of mistakes to yeah he was great and we were lucky to have him. He made a lot of mistakes, as all coaches do, but probably his biggest sin was not walking away on his own terms. 

I'm not going to say McVince didn't do a good job initially.  One plus was dealing with Bert and putting Rodgers and a new core of players on a path to a Superbowl.  This is when TT was at the top of his game as well.

The major distinction between Holmgren and McVince is Holmgren shaped Bert and put him in line.  What also can't be ignored is this was an era before the salary cap so building that monster defense also made everyone look good. 

I think if you're looking at most impact on each era I would say Harlan/Wolf/Holmgren/Defense/Favre.  The Rodgers era I would say TT/Rodgers/McVince/Superbowl defense . . . . . . . . . . Snow tubing hill/Murphy.  Of course both TT and McVince took a serious nose dive after 2014.

McVince deserves kudos and maybe Holmgren would've been skewered more if he stuck around.  Hell, even Sherman had the team winning but that was due to Wolf's remaining talent.  Sherman did diddlysquat as a GM.

So yeah, McVince deserves his due without a doubt but I wouldn't make the comparison to Holmgren.  People were pissed at Holmgren because he left and seemingly wasn't focused in the 2nd Superbowl.  People were pissed at McVince because he stuck around with the worst coaching staff.

On a side note:  I think it's pretty clear now that Highsmith and Elliot Wolf weren't all they were supposedly cracked up to be.  I don't know how Gergle will pan out but I do think it was the right move to make him GM with what remained of the FO.  It would've been nice to have Schneider as GM but that ship has sailed.

Tschmack posted:

Holmgren was a fantastic coach and I was annoyed how poorly he was treated when he left.   They were a stones throw away from winning 2 titles in a row and if not for the Jerry Rice non fumble who knows how the 1998 playoffs may have turned out?   

Again, there have been plenty of really good teams that haven’t won a Super Bowl.   We’ve had our fair share of good Packers teams falling just short - namely 1995, 1997, 2007, and 2014.   Hell, throw in 1998 and 2003 for good measure.   

At a minimum, the Packers should have 2-3 more titles as I am convinced they would have beaten Pittsburgh in 1995, should have beaten Denver in 1997, and may have been able to beat New England in 2007 or 2014. 

2011 can be added here as well. 15-1 and one and done...….

Henry posted:

The major distinction between Holmgren and McVince is Holmgren shaped Bert and put him in line.  



I think MM deserves credit for recognizing he had a brilliant young QB, standing his ground with Favre that they were sticking with Rodgers, and collaborating with Rodgers to create an offense that was dominant. It took 20 lb Pittsburgh balls to go all-in on a mostly unknown commodity when your HOF QB who just took you to the NFCC tells you he wants to return and try again. Most coaches would have picked Favre every time because of the short leash HC's tend to get. I think TT agreed with MM, but I think that was MM's choice 100%.  

Rodgers development was obviously easier than most QBs because he is a HOF mental and physical talent, but MM deserves a share of credit for his development. Not just his development though, I think he recognized this kid was special and didn't treat him the same way as Favre who needed to be reigned in. I think they partnered on this offense from the beginning and MM trusted him to take care of business. Again not a lot coaches would do that, especially not first time HC's in year 3 or 4, it took guts. 

Favorite MM memory is hearing that he surprised the players with a ring fitting the night before the Super Bowl. Gave our players confidence to win it all. 

Fedya posted:
Tschmack posted:

Not that I want to compare MM with others, but let’s not forget Holmgren and Wolf and Favre only got them one title as well.   Looking back on things they should have had more.

And if Denver hadn't been cheating on the salary cap, the Packers would have had more.

...and if Favre wouldn't have thrown the ball over Antonio Freeman's head, when Free had a wide open field in front of him, we would have had another. 

One thing I will ALWAYS give McCarthy credit for. All too often, no, WAY too often, McCarthy would have to stand in front of that podium and do the job that Ted Thompson refused to do. And this was before any health issues with Ted. 

MM would stand there and answer for personnel moves, why draft picks busted out, why the Packers weren't signing player X or Y etc etc. it was incredibly unfair and complete bullshit that Ted wouldn't do that very large part of his job. And to MM's credit, he did it and did it without grumbling or whining over it which he would have been more then justified to do. 

I also have zero doubts, especially later in his regime, that he was begging Ted to go out and find him FA help. Which we all know fell on deaf ears until Ted was "re-assigned" to consultant.  And it will always make me wonder what those years could have looked like if TT threw MM a bone and signed a couple of key FA's 

packerboi posted:

One thing I will ALWAYS give McCarthy credit for. All too often, no, WAY too often, McCarthy would have to stand in front of that podium and do the job that Ted Thompson refused to do. And this was before any health issues with Ted. 

MM would stand there and answer for personnel moves, why draft picks busted out, why the Packers weren't signing player X or Y etc etc. it was incredibly unfair and complete bullshit that Ted wouldn't do that very large part of his job. And to MM's credit, he did it and did it without grumbling or whining over it which he would have been more then justified to do. 

MM was indeed forced to answer to the media and public for the organization's mounting personnel mistakes when he was not the one making those mistakes.

And yes taking a bullet or two or three for the boss man who refuses to take ownership for his errors can be an admirable trait.

Then again, MM was fiercely loyal to both those below him (Dom) and apparently Ted above him and perhaps a bit more blunt honesty (or grumbling or whining if you prefer) about the GM's refusal to add veteran talent through free agency or trades would have served both MM and the Packers better than just taking it in the proverbial shorts for Ted as MM did during the last several years of their time together in GB.

You have no idea what MM said or did not say to TT behind the scenes.  All we do know is how he acted in front of the mic.  I would bet he said plenty.  But he would never air that to the public because that was part of his loyalty-to-a-fault MO.

In this instance just basic professionalism I believe. You don't go bashing your own front office or questioning them publicly. I imagine there were plenty of tense discussions when everyone was informed guys like Woodson, Tramon, Jenkins, Lang, etc. were going to be allowed to just walk, but we won't ever really know for sure. 

Henry posted:
Grave Digger posted:

Favorite MM memory is hearing that he surprised the players with a ring fitting the night before the Super Bowl. Gave our players confidence to win it all. 

That and CJ Wilson tickling the ivories.

That ring fitting thing is a really misleading story. The Packers were going to get a ring, win or lose. If they lost they would all get rings for winning the NFC Championship. So getting fitted ahead of the game really meant nothing. Pretty sure their size for a SB ring would be the same as their size for a NFC ring. 

Jerry Jones stuck tickets to the NFC Title game tickets in players lockers before they played the Giants in 2007/08. That worked out pretty well. Sometimes motivational tactics work. Sometimes they don't. Most times the better team wins and any motivational tactics just make for nice feel good stories. 

Grave Digger posted:

In this instance just basic professionalism I believe. You don't go bashing your own front office or questioning them publicly. 

Many ways to call attention to an organization's issues short of directly bashing the boss.

And failing to take concerted action when the organization is clearly out of whack, is certainly one way to deal with the situation.

Certainly that approach has served Jason Garrett (or at least his bank account) well during his decade long run as Jerry Jones' poodle in Dallas. 

And no doubt all those loyal employees who kept silent while the late Al Davis went senile in front of their eyes were able to cash the checks they got from the Raiders.

But, as a SB winning coach, if MM was truly that miffed at what the Packers GM (not owner mind you but GM) was doing it would have been nice if he had done a little more to alert the President of the club about those issues.

Unless of course MM was letting Murphy know about Ted's issues and Murphy is just lying about not knowing how bad things got until he finally pulled the plug on Ted after the 2017 season.

This has turned in to a really good thread, mostly sound reasoning.  Pretty impressive given how incredibly stupid you idiots are.

I was definitely in the "be careful what you ask for" group.  But clearly, it was time. 

Like most of you, I couldn't be happier nor more surprised at where the Packers are right now. 

There were some hard feelings toward Holmy though from some Packer fans it seemed for a while. Once he flamed out in Seattle after a decade I think people let it go and now that we're 20 years out no one really seems to care. Beating him twice in the playoffs and having a 5-2 record against him helped a lot also. Same will be true of McCarthy. Time will pass and people will only remember the SB win, the championship game appearances, the winning %, etc. 

Grave Digger posted:

There were some hard feelings toward Holmy though from some Packer fans it seemed for a while. Once he flamed out in Seattle after a decade I think people let it go and now that we're 20 years out no one really seems to care. Beating him twice in the playoffs and having a 5-2 record against him helped a lot also. Same will be true of McCarthy. Time will pass and people will only remember the SB win, the championship game appearances, the winning %, etc. 

You may be right and I do remember feeling like Holmgren wasn't all in for that last playoff run but I never felt like he was completely incompetent like I did with MM at times.

This whole discussion reminds me a lot as to what happened to Bart Starr. Like TT not going after free agents Judge Parins refusal to give Mike Butler a new contract hamstrung Starr.  As a result the team which was getting better fell back and Starr was booed and booed at Lambeau, eventually being fired by Parins.  Yet when Bart came back to Lambeau years later he was cheered louder than Favre.  The same will happen with MM.  Especially if the Packers do not another Super Bowl for many years.

I assume most people cheered Bart for his playing days and being an exceptional human being after the game.  The coaching stuff can recede.   MM will be celebrated again at Lambeau at some point but I don't think it will be anything like with Starr.

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