@MichiganPacker2 posted:Joe Kerrigan, Preston Smith, and Josh Norman is nothing?
Playing Josh Norman in man at corner was like playing Micah Hyde in man at corner.
Underwhelming on paper anyway. Hope it's like some other underwhelming hires based on their results as coordinators.
Matt LaFluer
Nathaniel Hackett
Mike McCarthy
Or he's Pettine II and we are right back here in 2023.
Willing to give him a chance but on its face a puzzling and uninspiring choice.
If we were ex-spurts, we'd be coaching the Packers.
Are we still doing that movie title thing?
Just for the sake of argument, what would have happened if our D had played the right defense in the end of the first half, Aaron Jones doesn't fumble, and we get points off of the 3 TB interceptions? We win the NFCC game and then get throttled by KC in the Super Bowl? Is Pettine still our DC? Would we have been OK with that? Speculation is that MLF had enough of Pettine.
My theory is that hiring someone with DC experience might be what MLF wanted because he knows his own limitations and that his expertise is on the offensive side of the ball. I have to admit, I'm not super pumped about this hire given JB's history, but the truth is this defense needs a change. Will JB be the guy that puts us over the top? None of us know.
In regards to the front office structure, the truth of the matter is that none of us know anything about how it really works, which is why we speculate that it sucks. That said, the STs hirings certainly would support that idea. But none of us are privy to what happens during the interviews or the meetings afterwards. I will say this, I don't buy into the idea that Murphy has no idea what he's doing. As president of the Packers, it's his job to be the de-facto owner. With no true owner that has deep pockets, it is incumbent on him to make sure the franchise is financially stable. While we like to joke about the sledding hill/development around Lambeau, it's imperative that GB pulls in as much revenue as possible given our small market location.
In reality, we have a really good team that's gone 29-5 over the past two years and has been to two NFCC games. We still have a HOF QB coming off an MVP season. Our coach is young and will therefore make mistakes along the way but seems to be innovative and energetic. The defensive failures are as much a result of missing on so many draft picks as it is with who our coordinator was/is. There are very few teams in the league that should have happier fans than us.
@GBFanForLife posted:You people are funny.
No shit. Most all said MLF should get to pick his own guy, not have someone pushed on him by MM or Russ Ball. So he picked his own guy and now it's a shit pick.
And isn't it possible Barry learned how to be a better coach since his Detoilet and Washington days?
The best indicator of what someone is thinking is by listening to what they say. MLF has a number of times spoken of "more energy", "juice", players not playing as well as they could, "swarming to the ball", "it isn't so much about the scheme as it is effort and energy". The hire was not about experience or philosophy / scheme; it was always going to be about getting a guy that he thought could get the defense playing with more emotion / effort and getting individual players to play better. Obviously he thought that these were the areas that Pettine was lacking in.
I think it comes down LaFleur wanted a guy he trusts who would run the style of defense he wants who knows what is required of a DC. If they’re planning to go “all-in” right now then maybe MLF doesn’t want to break in an up and comer.
Again it seems lame when you see other teams taking risks on young innovators, but we will see. Shore up the weak spots with legit talent and you insulate yourself against coaching failures. People hate Dom, but Dom fielded a championship D when he had the horses. Maybe Barry can do the same.
Got a guy on staff with DC experience and a better track record in Jerry Gray. Time will tell.
@ammo posted:No shit. Most all said MLF should get to pick his own guy, not have someone pushed on him by MM or Russ Ball. So he picked his own guy and now it's a shit pick.
And isn't it possible Barry learned how to be a better coach since his Detoilet and Washington days?
No! No, it’s not possible. Just like everyone on X4 Barry hasn’t evolved since 2008.
Two separate times at DC 7 years apart with the same results. I'm not hopeful.
I came across a late 2016 season Washington Post article on Rod Marinelli's son-in-law and holy shit this is the type of journalistic assassination that no Wisconsin beat writer would ever come close to even contemplating when it comes to reporting on members of the beloved Green and Gold:
When Joe Barry talks, you cringe. The affable Washington Redskins defensive coordinator says the most laughable things.
What a dreadful way to go, listening to a good man mangle logic so badly that you can’t save yourself, let alone Barry.
On Thursday, when asked repeatedly for insight into how he evaluates his defense, Barry talked himself into embarrassment again. It was like he kicked his own shin, and though he didn’t feel the pain immediately, you put your hand to your mouth anticipating the moment he realizes the damage he had done.
You could give Barry a break if he didn’t so consistently make your eyebrows jump.
Of all potential excuses, going with an “It’s too hard” answer was the most threatening to his credibility, and he reached for that blade anyway.
Barry is a versatile self-abuser. Whether lying or telling the truth, he’s equally skilled at killing himself.
But this isn’t just about punishing Barry for articulating himself poorly in front of reporters. The sports world is full of quality coaches who are terrible in such settings. But when you combine shaky results with Barry’s questionable words, the level of concern is so high that Barry should be coaching for his job in the final four games.
The defense has improved in Barry’s second season calling plays, but not significantly. Most concerning is that Barry has had trouble leveraging his limited talent for better results.
To his credit, the players still compete for Barry. The energy and attention to detail remain. His defensive staff has done good work developing some of the younger players. But whenever something has gone wrong on Sunday, the veterans have been quick to question the play calling. They like Barry. They work hard for him. But do they believe in him?
But the more Barry talks, the more he reveals simple-minded strategy that makes you doubt he’s the sophisticated guru needed to rebuild this defense. And the more his unit fails to assist one of the league’s best offenses, the clearer it becomes that the defense could stunt franchise’s growth.
Barry's tenure as Washington's DC ended not long after this article was written.
@Henry posted:Two separate times at DC 7 years apart with the same results. I'm not hopeful.
He improved the 2nd time around😌
Maybe Paul Chryst will give Barry some tips on how to interview
@SteveLuke posted:I came across a late 2016 season Washington Post article on Rod Marinelli's son-in-law and holy shit this is the type of journalistic assassination that no Wisconsin beat writer would ever come close to even contemplating when it comes to reporting on members of the beloved Green and Gold:
When Joe Barry talks, you cringe. The affable Washington Redskins defensive coordinator says the most laughable things.
What a dreadful way to go, listening to a good man mangle logic so badly that you can’t save yourself, let alone Barry.
On Thursday, when asked repeatedly for insight into how he evaluates his defense, Barry talked himself into embarrassment again. It was like he kicked his own shin, and though he didn’t feel the pain immediately, you put your hand to your mouth anticipating the moment he realizes the damage he had done.
You could give Barry a break if he didn’t so consistently make your eyebrows jump.
Of all potential excuses, going with an “It’s too hard” answer was the most threatening to his credibility, and he reached for that blade anyway.
Barry is a versatile self-abuser. Whether lying or telling the truth, he’s equally skilled at killing himself.
But this isn’t just about punishing Barry for articulating himself poorly in front of reporters. The sports world is full of quality coaches who are terrible in such settings. But when you combine shaky results with Barry’s questionable words, the level of concern is so high that Barry should be coaching for his job in the final four games.
The defense has improved in Barry’s second season calling plays, but not significantly. Most concerning is that Barry has had trouble leveraging his limited talent for better results.
To his credit, the players still compete for Barry. The energy and attention to detail remain. His defensive staff has done good work developing some of the younger players. But whenever something has gone wrong on Sunday, the veterans have been quick to question the play calling. They like Barry. They work hard for him. But do they believe in him?
But the more Barry talks, the more he reveals simple-minded strategy that makes you doubt he’s the sophisticated guru needed to rebuild this defense. And the more his unit fails to assist one of the league’s best offenses, the clearer it becomes that the defense could stunt franchise’s growth.
Barry's tenure as Washington's DC ended not long after this article was written.
Good thing he's not running for Senate.
This is from his first year.... but based on reading the article I was expecting much worse:
@Henry posted:Good thing he's not running for Senate.
He's not Tommy Tuberville.
The more I read about the guy, the worse the hire looks.....
@SteveLuke posted:To his credit, the players still compete for Barry. The energy and attention to detail remain. His defensive staff has done good work developing some of the younger players. But whenever something has gone wrong on Sunday, the veterans have been quick to question the play calling. They like Barry. They work hard for him. But do they believe in him?
But the more Barry talks, the more he reveals simple-minded strategy that makes you doubt he’s the sophisticated guru needed to rebuild this defense.
Dom is a "sophisticated guru" -- Todays young athletes do not relate well to old white sophisticated guru's -- Charles Woodson was the guy that put the energy in the defense in 2010. In 96 it was Butler & Reggie. Getting the picture?
A young(er) guy in this case, he is 50, with energy to teach & develop younger players can help, but somebody on that defense needs to step into the Charles Woodson role. Whether it's Jaire or Z, someone else? I don't know, but this defense will never be good without that defensive energetic leader on the playing field.
@Boris posted:Dom is a "sophisticated guru" -- Todays young athletes do not relate well to old white sophisticated guru's -- Charles Woodson was the guy that put the energy in the defense in 2010. In 96 it was Butler & Reggie. Getting the picture?
A young(er) guy in this case, he is 50, with energy to teach & develop younger players can help, but somebody on that defense needs to step into the Charles Woodson role. Whether it's Jaire or Z, someone else? I don't know, but this defense will never be good without that defensive energetic leader on the playing field.
?
That's like saying today's young athletes are idiots.
Many of them are but smart along with talented is another level of player.
Woodson is very cerebral and some of the best UDFA's (and all quality players) are the guys who put in the work in books and film.
Barry sounds like MeatSlab Fitzgerald at Northwestern. I'm guessing Murphy gladly signed off on this hiring.
Shit, if this guy is nothing but a chowderhead, ass slappin' cheerleader this defense is fucked.
I can't find any pressers from 2016, but quite a few from his first year with Washington. As always, don't rely on some writer's interpretation, go to primary source. He is way more articulate than the article suggests;
Pete Carroll's first two stints as HC were him doing nothing with the Jets and being fired after one year, then taking the SB Patriots team after Parcells left and running it into the ground. Certainly his time in Seattle has been much better, and he's known as a firey energetic guy.
So there are examples of retreads having bad first and 2nd stints and figuring it out on the 3rd try, but I'd say it's the exception rather than the norm.
My bigger beef is that this is the second time now we couldn't get our first choice of coach. Whatever the various reasons, that's never a good look.
Go back 10 years and look at the winning coaches in the Superb Owls. See any young up and comers? There is only Dougie Petersen and John Harbaugh (if you thought of him as young and up and coming.) No McVays, Nagy's Milfs' ect. Experience seems to win out in the end. Hopefully Lafluff has learned from his mistakes. But I sure wanted a "Gritz Blitz" defense. Lionheart would have been a fascinating hire. I could see him on the sidelines now, DON"T CHOCK YOU"RE ALL BABIES!!!//////
I feel like I'm being buried in coach speak. Not exactly a strike against him as there are very few coaches actually speak off the cuff. I'm not seeing anything exonerating or incriminating him here.
I guess I want to know if the chess player is in there.
@FLPACKER posted:The best indicator of what someone is thinking is by listening to what they say. MLF has a number of times spoken of "more energy", "juice", players not playing as well as they could, "swarming to the ball", "it isn't so much about the scheme as it is effort and energy". The hire was not about experience or philosophy / scheme; it was always going to be about getting a guy that he thought could get the defense playing with more emotion / effort and getting individual players to play better. Obviously he thought that these were the areas that Pettine was lacking in.
For years I've felt like the Packer defense has played with what looked like concrete galoshes on. Saw a lot of it in the NFCC game. Slow to react, Slow to pursue.
@Henry posted:?
That's like saying today's young athletes are idiots.
I never said that. You said that.
@Henry posted:I guess I want to know if the chess player is in there.
We're going to find out if he's an X's & O's guy -- Going to need that too obviously.
I certainly don't want meathead guy but some energy would be a welcomed change
@vitaflo posted:Pete Carroll's first two stints as HC were him doing nothing with the Jets and being fired after one year, then taking the SB Patriots team after Parcells left and running it into the ground. Certainly his time in Seattle has been much better, and he's known as a firey energetic guy.
So there are examples of retreads having bad first and 2nd stints and figuring it out on the 3rd try, but I'd say it's the exception rather than the norm.
My bigger beef is that this is the second time now we couldn't get our first choice of coach. Whatever the various reasons, that's never a good look.
1) Pete Carroll as HC, not DC
2) Pete also had a lot to show on the college level, hence him getting 3 cracks at the NFL.
I can give Barry the benefit of the doubt to some extent with his previous stints: the talent he had was absolutely putrid. Ryan Kerrigan is the only Pro Bowler he ever coordinated, his key guys across Detroit and Washington were guys like Paris Lennon, Shaun Rodgers, Ryan Kerrigan, Mason Foster rookie Preston Smith, Dashaun Goldson, and a shockingly apathetic Josh Norman. We have a 3 stars, 3 really solid players, a handful of up and comers, and a handful of really solid depth players. If they add any DL talent, LB talent, and/or another key CB then Barry will have a really good unit to work with. The fact that he can motivate players to play hard and that we have talent in place makes me hopeful we can make some noise.
@Boris posted:I never said that. You said that.
We're going to find out if he's an X's & O's guy -- Going to need that too obviously.
I certainly don't want meathead guy but some energy would be a welcomed change
Yeah, I read too much into your post. There are plenty of idiots in the NFL, I stand by that statement.
I think 100% of posters would like to see a new level of energy on this defense be it more physical hitting/tackling or ball hawking or speed, whatever. I didn't see many posters calling for Son of Bum or other retread DCs.
The most damning line in that article is this:
But whenever something has gone wrong on Sunday, the veterans have been quick to question the play calling. They like Barry. They work hard for him. But do they believe in him?
You can't poo poo the writer either because the sports writers are the ones hearing vets questioning the play calling.
The other thing of note, Barry didn't go with Staley as a DC, he was the "pass game coordinator. He also didn't get hired as DC for the Rams.
Barry is starting to feel like a leftovers comfort hiring for Mayo. There's something about that interdependence that's a bit troubling.
@Packiderm posted:For years I've felt like the Packer defense has played with what looked like concrete galoshes on. Saw a lot of it in the NFCC game. Slow to react, Slow to pursue.
Could not agree more.
That hit on Aaron Jones causing the fumble to begin the 2nd half (that was not Jones' fault that was very good timing by the Bucs defender who also "legally" laid the wood) just has not occurred in GB for the past decade. (Jones' 1st half fumble also resulted from a big hit rather than recklessness on his part).
Who were the last "hitters" on D in GB? Atari Bigby, maybe Desmond Bishop?
PS love the GALOSHES reference.
Offenses are so well coached now that it is difficult to "scheme" an unblocked rusher to the QB, or fool a QB into an interception. However, individual match ups happen on every play and are the biggest determining factor in success. Look at the TB game, above all the other stuff that happened, 4 key match ups we lost on defense and 4 on offense really determined the outcome of the game; P. Smith, Z. Smith, King, & Sullivan on defense and Turner, Wagner, Jenkins, & Patrick on offense all consistently lost their one-on-ones. A coach can only do so much during the game to help or with game planning to mitigate this. So question should be. How can new DC help our guys win more of these?
@Grave Digger posted:I can give Barry the benefit of the doubt to some extent with his previous stints: the talent he had was absolutely putrid. Ryan Kerrigan is the only Pro Bowler he ever coordinated, his key guys across Detroit and Washington were guys like Paris Lennon, Shaun Rodgers, Ryan Kerrigan, Mason Foster rookie Preston Smith, Dashaun Goldson, and a shockingly apathetic Josh Norman. We have a 3 stars, 3 really solid players, a handful of up and comers, and a handful of really solid depth players. If they add any DL talent, LB talent, and/or another key CB then Barry will have a really good unit to work with. The fact that he can motivate players to play hard and that we have talent in place makes me hopeful we can make some noise.
And that should be noted, the Packers defense has some solid pieces in place so it's not like I'm expecting the defense to completely implode.
If the problem is I don't see the rectification of what Pettine wasn't. Can Barry bring more energy? Sure. Is he a better tactician or even decision maker than Pettine? Not likely.
I just don't see the remedy to Pettine's faults. Maybe it's the working relationship with Mayo, it's definitely not a downside. But as FLPacker pointed out, Pettine fielded solid defensive numbers and the straw that broke the camel's back was the blown play at the end of the half.
There's already been questions about Mayo passing off offensive play calling to better manage the overall flow of the game. Are Hackett and Barry going to sink or swim? I guess the one factor that could be a benefit is the comfort level between all 3 guys. Maybe that's enough, who knows.
Again, I just don't see the fix for Pettine's failings here.
One fix for both Pettine and Barry is for Gump to draft a DT or ILB or, stay with me, both!