Latest Update on 2020-21 Season

Well, they remade 2/3rd of their rotation in 2 trades. Bogdanovic is a “catch on the way up” player. Just coming into his prime. He’s an upgrade from Divincenzo, even though I really like DD. This also makes them retaining Connaughton very likely. Justin James hasn’t played much, but he could be a 3 and D SG. Bucks are rumored to also be looking at Avery Bradley, which means they intend on becoming a better perimeter defensive team.

Personally I liked what I saw from Wes Matthews, and he opted out for more $$$. Budenholzer inexplicably left him on the bench down the stretch against Miami, watching Butler and friends torch the Bucks down the stretch. You can bring him back to pester LeBron, Harden, or Jaylen Brown.

Lineup right now looks like this:

PG: Holiday, Mason

SG: Bogdanovic, James

SF: Middleton

PF: Giannis

C: B Lopez

The vision for the team is clear- more shooting, more perimeter defense, and the ability to go small by pulling Lopez out of the lineup and putting Giannis at C. If the Bucks add Connaughton, Matthews, and/or Bradley, they’re looking to play small ball. It looks to me like they actually have the cap room to sign all 3, depending on how much they need to give Bogdanovic. PJ Tucker has also been rumored- which gives them even more small ball possibilities.

They were torched by small ball lineups last season, aNd the way to get there right now is small ball. I will not be shocked if the Bucks deal Lopez next.

@Music City posted:

If that’s true, I would love Giannis even more. It would prove that he feels about the same way I do about the Banana Boat crew...

This article alludes to it, but I also read somewhere else that there was concern about how his personality would mesh with Giannis'.  There is no way that comes up unless Giannis was the one who voiced the concern.

https://www.si.com/nba/cavalie...kee-bucks-chris-paul

@Scott Catron posted:

Some picks is an understatement. Three #1 picks? Wow.

The value of those picks now all depends on whether Giannis signs the supermax.

================

IF Giannis signs the supermax, they have a core of Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, and Bogdanovic for the next 3-4 years and there is no way that group wins less than 55-60 games a year. The draft picks are basically filler in that case (almost in the second round in the 25-30 range) and the trade look like this.

Bucks get:

Holiday and Bogdanovic and some filler that doesn't matter (Justin James)

Bucks give up:

Bledsoe, Hill, and DDV and some filler that doesn't matter (Ilyasova and Wilson) and 3 draft picks in bottom quarter of the first round (basically more guys like Wilson or DDV at best). Don't forget that Hill turns 35 during the playoffs next year and is probably going to be a declining player.

The Bucks get younger and Holiday is an upgrade over Bledsoe and Bogdanovic is an upgrade over Hill. DDV is as likely to be out of the league in 3 years and he is to be a starting caliber player on a playoff team.

========================================

However, if Giannis doesn't sign the supermax, then the Bucks turn into a #6 type seed and are teetering on becoming a lottery team. I still think Middleton, Holiday, and Bogdanovic get you to the playoffs and that's all you really need for the trade not to become a disaster (which is to not end up giving up picks that end up top 5).

In any event, there is no way the Bucks play to tank even if Giannis leaves because it won't do them any good. It's also likely this means Giannis stays because this is a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better playoff team in terms of roster construction. They may not win as many regular-season games if Bud continues to limit minutes as we'll have to see who else signs to get them to a 9/10 deep regular-season rotation, but who cares about that. The good teams go 8 deep in the playoffs and right now it's the following:

Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, Bogdanovic, and Lopez and Sterling Brown. That's who is under contract.

Really like the Bogdonovic move.  They didn’t give up a lot to get him and he is exactly the guy they need.  Another long range shooting option when Middleton or Lopez aren’t hitting.  Plus, his contract isn’t crazy expensive this year and next.

While I am pleased they got Holiday they gave up a lot to get him.  But if you are the Bucks you have to make that move, and it only looks tilted in the Pelicans favor if those picks are lottery based.  I think another key factor is this move prevents another team in the East from getting him.   Overall, after seeing what Portland gave up for Covington maybe it wasn’t as much as I thought.  Another consideration is Holiday has a player option of 27MM next year and with economic uncertainty still possibly lingering it increases the odds he sticks around in Milwaukee for 2 years v 1 year.  

It sure would be nice to get Wes Matthews back to add depth and defense.  Also thinking they will try to bring back Planet Pat.  

Ummmmm.......WOWWW!!!

The Bucks sure look a lot different today than they did yesterday.

Are they signing @Tschmack & @Music City for the bench?? That's about all they can afford since Giannis gets the SM

@Boris posted:

Ummmmm.......WOWWW!!!

he Bucks sure look a lot different today than they did yesterday.

Are they signing @Tschmack & @Music City for the bench?? That's about all they can afford since Giannis gets the SM

I can post up, rebound, and knock down a few 3s...

A bit vertically challenged at 6’ but I can still hit my share of outside shots and occasionally beat defenders off the dribble.  Defensively?  That ship sailed a long time ago.   I gave up my city league playing days a couple of years ago after tweaking/partially tearing a calf muscle.  Basketball is definitely a younger persons game and you don’t get more athletic over time.  As a buddy of mine who played college ball once told me - I knew my future prospects were a bit limited when I had to defend a better, younger player (in this case was Ron Mercer).  He could score, but needless to say had some difficulties stopping the other guy lol.

I’ll be curious to see who else they may be able to add.  They need a couple of more players.  Preferably a couple of defensive minded guards or swing players.

I am a veteran of the Dick Bennett UW-SP basketball camps so I used to be a decent defender (at least better than my actual athletic ability) and I shot over 90% from the line as a high school player. I'm probably not as good as Music City or Tshmack, though.

I think they still have a MLE to use, so maybe that's what they are looking at Patrick Beverly with as a backup guard. They definitely need a backup big man at this point for regular-season games.

This gives me confidence in the trade.

on Bucks acquiring Jrue Holiday & Bogdanović: "New Orleans just committed highway robbery in this deal. The only way you can really get Giannis the help he needs is getting him an equal, a costar, an Anthony Davis

Skip Bayless is such a putz

If Dame or Durant say Holiday is an elite level player that’s all I need to know considering those two may be the most difficult at their respective positions to defend.

As for “committing highway robbery” that’s possible IF the Bucks picks end up being lottery picks.  If Giannis stays in MKE those picks probably won’t be worth that much.  

What skippy boy fails to realize is these deals were as much about keeping Giannis as they were preventing other teams in the East from acquiring them.  The Bucks just got better.   Did any other team in the East?  Definitely not.  The Bucks now have 3 legit studs in Giannis and Middleton and Holiday and 2 decent sidekicks in Lopez and Bogs.   They’ve closed the gap with the Heat and IMO have a better lineup than Boston or Philly or NJ.  

I like what New Orleans is doing as guys like AD and Holiday weren’t going to stay anyway but it could be years before they see those picks pan out (or don’t).  

So, according to Skip the Idiot, the Bucks should probably let Giannis go, so he can sign with NY, Mia, the Clippers, or some other sexy team to make the NBA more fun for him. People like him want 8 team leagues. Good luck with that and F off.

Giannis could still bail but he’s not wired like KD or Durant or Kahwi or the other hired guns.  That’s where Skip is missing the banana boat.

New Orleans did insist on one of the unprotected picks being in 2027 (the year after Giannis' supermax would end).  They must think he's signing as well, because otherwise why would you defer a pick for 7 years?

Many in the national media are going crazy about the "draft capital" the Bucks gave up for Holiday. It is a lot on paper, but if Giannis signs the supermax only one of those picks has even a realistic chance to be in the lottery (2027). To have a realistic chance of getting a difference-maker, you really have to be picking in the top 20 or so.

There have been 58 guys named to all-star teams in the last 5 years. There are 4 other guys drafted in the last couple of years that will are highly likely to make one eventually (Zion, Morant, Gilgeous-Alexander, and Herro) and I'm being generous on the final 2.  Of those 62 guys, 43 of them were drafted in the lottery and 3 more were drafted 15th or 16th (Giannis, Kawhi, and Vucevic). Only 4 all-stars in that period were drafted between #17 and the end of the first round (Lowry, Siakam, Butler, and Gobert).  There were 8 guys drafted in the second round that made all-star teams (Middleton, Jokic, Millsap, Draymond, Dragic, M. Gasol, D. Jordan, and I. Thomas).  In other words, you are equally likely to make an all-star team if you are one of the 30 picks in the second round as you are if you are one of the final 14 or so picks in the first round. And

#1 overall pick, 7 all-stars plus Zion (8)

#2 overall, 5 all stars plus Morant (6)

#3 (8)

#4 (4)

#5 (4). 

Almost half of the guys that played in all-star games the last 5 years and likely shoo-ins (Zion and Morant) were drafted within the top 5 overall.  The national media is making it seem like the Bucks are giving up 5 potential future all-stars with those picks and swap options. They will sacrifice depth, obviously. But on a year to year basis, you can get just as much contributions from veteran ring chasers as you can from guys you pick in the 20s (DJ Wilson, etc.).  Again, if Giannis signs the max the only pick that has any real risk (barring injury) of falling into the lottery is the 2027 first-rounder. Even then, a top 5 pick is still relatively unlikely. I think the national media is pissed that this points to Giannis staying in Milwaukee and them having to spend time in Milwaukee instead of Miami, NYC, or the Bay Area.

The much bigger risk is that Holiday opts out after this year and you don't resign him. Then, you've essentially traded away your regular-season depth with the draft picks and Bledsoe and Hill for a rental. Maybe they've already talked to Holiday about an extension. If so, there's much less risk.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

This gives me confidence in the trade.

@RealSkipBayless

on Bucks acquiring Jrue Holiday & Bogdanović: "New Orleans just committed highway robbery in this deal. The only way you can really get Giannis the help he needs is getting him an equal, a costar, an Anthony Davis

Best endorsement ever...

Holiday has a player option for almost 30MM in 2021/2022.  Given financial stability of the league it may be well worth his time to opt in making this a 2 year deal instead of a rental.  

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

The much bigger risk is that Holiday opts out after this year and you don't resign him. Then, you've essentially traded away your regular-season depth with the draft picks and Bledsoe and Hill for a rental. Maybe they've already talked to Holiday about an extension. If so, there's much less risk.

There’s a lot of things they can still do. How much draft capital do the Lakers have? Anyone screaming about that?

Look at Boston- they were the toast of the universe for being so smart in collecting all this lottery capital from shit teams. They had all these top shelf assets, thanks to the fleecing of the Nets. They struck out on Kawhi, Durant, Lebron... burned sone of that lottery capital on Irving, burned a max slot on Heyward. All to watch the Bucks, Toronto, and Miami pass them in the EC, and now Brooklyn could also pass them. They got Tatum and Brown... and then literally nothing else currently on the roster.

I don’t think the Bucks are done. There are ring chasers. There are roster fillers. And they could still deal Lopez in favor of more versatility and perimeter defense.

Several outlets reporting that Boston offered Hayward and 3 first-round picks for Holiday and the Pelicans took the Bucks offer.

There appears to be some drama in Boston with Hayward as they are trying to get him to extend the deadline for his player option.

The challenge they have in Boston is that it's not really a more appealing destination for free agents than Milwaukee. I lived in Boston for 5 years and it's one of the most racially divided cities in the country. Without McHale selling low on Garnett in the late 2000s, they would not have been relevant since Bird retired. The Garnett trades in both directions (from the Wolves and to the Nets) are what set them up for long-term success. 

https://boston.cbslocal.com/20...%20his%20merry%20way.

@Music City posted:

There’s a lot of things they can still do. How much draft capital do the Lakers have? Anyone screaming about that?

Look at Boston- they were the toast of the universe for being so smart in collecting all this lottery capital from shit teams. They had all these top shelf assets, thanks to the fleecing of the Nets. They struck out on Kawhi, Durant, Lebron... burned sone of that lottery capital on Irving, burned a max slot on Heyward. All to watch the Bucks, Toronto, and Miami pass them in the EC, and now Brooklyn could also pass them. They got Tatum and Brown... and then literally nothing else currently on the roster.

I don’t think the Bucks are done. There are ring chasers. There are roster fillers. And they could still deal Lopez in favor of more versatility and perimeter defense.

Draft picks are obviously just potential players, not proven. The Bucks have been in the equivalent of the lottery (top 14 picks at this point) many times since the mid-80s and here's what they ended up picking.

1st overall:  Big Dog, Bogut

2nd: Parker

4th: Marbury (traded immediately for Ray Allen)

6th: Yi Jianlian

8th: Joe Alexander, TJ Ford, Vin Baker, Todd Day

9th: Nowitzki (traded immediately for Robert Traylor)

10th: Thon Maker, Jimmer Fredette, Brandon Jennings, Danny Fortson, Gary Trent

13th: Marques Haslip

14th: John Henson

I consider Ray Allen and Traylor their "real" picks for those years since they drafted Dirk and Marbury in pre-arranged deals. So out of all these premium picks they got one HOFer (Allen) and 2 other guys that made multiple all-star teams at least once (Big Dog and Baker).  Bogut is the only other guy worth much that they drafted in the lottery. If you put all these players together in their prime, you probably have the equivalent of a 5th seed in the East. Most of the time, unless you are drafting top 5 it's a complete crapshoot and the Bucks were 50% (2 for 4) in terms of getting an all-star drafting top 4.

I get holding onto picks in the NFL since you have to fill a roster with 22 starters and a few other key backups.  In the NBA, it comes down to do you have at least one superstar that you can pair with 3-4 other good players to be competitive. Draft picks in the 20s don't do much of anything for you.

The National media is looking at NBA draft picks the same as NFL draft picks.

They're not even close. 2027 -- We'll deal with that & hopefully by then the Bucks have 2 or more Larry's in the bank.

They had to get creative & keep Giannis. It wasn't going to be easy but they're a better team today than they were yesterday.

2027?  Hell, none of us might be around by then...

From the Ringer :

Milwaukee’s not trading three good players, five picks, and about $11.5 million in expiring contracts for Holiday and Bogdanovic; it’s trading that package for Holiday, Bogdanovic, and Giannis. And if that’s what it is, then you do it 100 times out of 100.

Spot on.

@Packdog posted:

From the Ringer :

Milwaukee’s not trading three good players, five picks, and about $11.5 million in expiring contracts for Holiday and Bogdanovic; it’s trading that package for Holiday, Bogdanovic, and Giannis. And if that’s what it is, then you do it 100 times out of 100.

Spot on.

Let’s not overdue it on how good these players are. The Bucks are getting 2 of the best 3 players in the deal. Holiday is the best player and Bledsoe number 2. Bogdanovic is third. Also, Bledsoe is unplayable in the playoffs especially with Giannis on the floor on the offensive end. George Hill will turn 35 during the playoffs. I’d love to have him off the bench, but he’s a descending player. DDV has some potential but there were times Sterling Brown looked better when he was in his first year.

I don’t recall who may have posted it but it’s almost like the national media is bashing the trades because they know it significantly increases the odds that Giannis stays in Milwaukee and that’s not what “they” want.   They would love nothing more to see him go to NY or LA or even Miami.

I also think it’s a big reason why Giannis doesn’t get the level of respect he deserves from his peers because after all why isn’t he more like the Kahwis and ADs and PG13 and Durants and Lebrons?   I mean, it’s almost beyond the imagination that he may want to stay in a small market like the Bucks?

With the exception of Kawhi (who still wants to play with other perceived “great” players but to me is still an outsider), this crew of NBAAU players of the 2000s that have all been sycophants to the LeBron train are in their last go around to try to manipulate the league to their will. These guys are all in their mid/late 30s, now. Their destruction of the NBA’s relationship with its fans- called the “player empowerment era”- is hopefully coming to an end.

The new era is built on Euro players and post LeBron era players who will hopefully take the league back. Giannis, Doncic... this is the new power structure of the NBA, and they don’t come from the AAU world of alliances and banana boats. You can bet that the next CBA will address the player empowerment era shenanigans that LeBron, Durant, and Chris Paul have been doing the last 10-15 years.

The media? Fuck the media. They don’t want to come to Milwaukee in June. They want to go to New York, LA, and Miami. Their point of view is irrelevant because their credibility is shit.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Let’s not overdue it on how good these players are. The Bucks are getting 2 of the best 3 players in the deal. Holiday is the best player and Bledsoe number 2. Bogdanovic is third. Also, Bledsoe is unplayable in the playoffs especially with Giannis on the floor on the offensive end. George Hill will turn 35 during the playoffs. I’d love to have him off the bench, but he’s a descending player. DDV has some potential but there were times Sterling Brown looked better when he was in his first year.

This is an interesting take. I don’t think it’s wrong today- but watching Bogdanovic grow under the “let it fly” of Budenholzer’s style of play will be something to watch. He was on a bad team, in a very different system. Interestingly enough, he dropped 35 on Jrue Holiday in the bubble. In fact, he averaged 19 ppg on 44% shooting from 3 in the bubble. I loved the idea of his brother on this team last year- I think when it’s said and done, he’ll be the best player in this storm of deals. Or at least the most important.

If there is anything that we have been talking about with the Bucks the last few years, it has been that they just have not been a smart team. So much of the game of basketball is not on the stat sheet... little things that lead to things that do show up. Call it basketball IQ.

The Bucks big three the last 3 years were Giannis, Bledsoe, and Middleton. None of these players play with a high basketball IQ, though Giannis might have one but he seems too stubborn to show it at times. Middleton has some really good moments against bad players, but gets out over his skis against better ones. And Bledsoe was just a pure athlete. Both Holiday and Bogdanovic are high basketball IQ players with a better feel for the game than Middleton or Bledsoe. This makes Giannis better- especially in the way it’ll influence his mental management of the game. Giannis is a sponge- and now his influences are smarter, better, and more proven. They’re not just better compliments- they’ll help Giannis be better too.

I hope they don’t miss Bledsoe’s grit and tenacity and aggressiveness on defense.  He had a bit of “dog” in him that every good team needs.   That being said, for as good as he was in certain aspects of his game, he was a flawed player.  He wilted under the pressure and in key moments made really questionable decisions like jacking up a 3 early in the shot clock or simply throwing it away.  And other teams knew it which put even more pressure on Giannis and Middleton.   Bledsoe’s inability to hit the outside shot allowed defenses to pack the paint making the job of Giannis that much more difficult and he pressed too much with fouls and turnovers.

Holiday is a career 35-36% shooter from 3. Defensively he’s on par with Bledsoe but they won’t have to take him out late in games like they did with Bledsoe.  

I love the Bogdanovic move.  He will force teams to honor his outside shot and give them another reliable option after Middleton from 3.   He’s also a pretty good FT shooter which is something they can always use late in games given Giannis and his struggles from the line.

Not that it’s really plausible but if there was a way they could get Goran Dragic to sign even for 1 year that would be a tremendous move.  He could play the 1 or 2 and he’s an instant offense super sub type dude.   Milwaukee could offer the MLE which is about 10MM if he wants a legit shot at a ring.  Not that he can’t in Miami, but the fit might actually be better in Milwaukee.

@Tschmack posted:

Not that it’s really plausible but if there was a way they could get Goran Dragic to sign even for 1 year that would be a tremendous move.  He could play the 1 or 2 and he’s an instant offense super sub type dude.   Milwaukee could offer the MLE which is about 10MM if he wants a legit shot at a ring.  Not that he can’t in Miami, but the fit might actually be better in Milwaukee.

That thought crossed my mind as he was dismantling Divincenzo and Hill in the playoffs. But I don’t think it’s possible- they won’t have cap room for him.

He proved that even at 34, he has some left in the tank, but the injury in the Finals really cost the Heat- and that’s the danger. Lots of miles, do you put the MLE on a guy that turns 35 come playoff time this season? I am not sure how the numbers would work even if they wanted to...

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Let’s not overdue it on how good these players are. .......................

I don't think anyone is questioning whether Holiday and Bogdan are better players than Hill, Bledsoe, and DD.  The question is on the ransom of draft picks !!! Yowza . Course with the Bucks history they would have just blown the picks anyway.

Again, "if" the move tipped the scales to keep Giannis in Miltown, you make that move 100 times out of 100.

Like that our GM (and ownership) are all in. Watching this team stall in playoffs in consecutive years was telling - Giannis hits the wall, Bledsoe turns into a pumpkin, Kash is streaky, a real clankfest ensues,  etc....they go out and get 2 guys that are known to step up their game at crunch time. Huge upgrade. Jrue is a top defender and way better shooter than Bledsoe,  Bogdan is deadly and can create, something Wes was incapable of(will miss his defense).

Gonna be a challenge to fill out the roster now that they are hard capped, but there will be plenty of guys that want to chase a ring. Need more depth but this is pretty nice :

PG : Jrue

SG: Bogdan

SF: Middleton

Everything : Giannis

5 spot : Brook

The Dragon is getting older which is why he may be open and willing to accept the MLE for a team like the Bucks.  No one is going to pay him the 20MM per year that he was receiving.  

He’s the perfect complimentary player ala Wes Matthews and Kyle Korver or Marvin Williams but honestly better than any of them.   Again, more offense and firepower when someone else isn’t hitting their shots.

If it’s a short term deal maybe they can go over the cap into the luxury tax without the MLE but more moves still need to be made.  They need another guard (preferably a combo guard like DDV that could play the 1 or 2) and they probably need another swing player - 3 and D type guy.   I think Sterling Brown can help.

Milwaukee Bucks Jrue Holiday separation in 1s is crazy 🔥😳.. He’s ready for season and hasn’t taken a day off since returning from the bubble with trainer @MrDoItMoving @Jrue_Holiday11 location @sportsxacademy pic.twitter.com/VFebcBJlMt

— Swish Cultures (@swishcultures_) November 17, 2020

Yes. Please.

I didn't realize this until now, but the Bucks do have two second round picks in the draft this evening. If I'm a guy in the draft this evening, I'm really hoping I get drafted by the Bucks because you are going to be guaranteed every opportunity to get playing time. It also gives me an excuse to watch something this evening.

https://behindthebuckpass.com/...raft-capital-trades/

As for second-round picks, that is another complex story. The Bucks did gain the No. 42 and No. 60 overall picks in Wednesday’s draft courtesy of the New Orleans Pelicans, so they will have two chances to get on the board this year in the latter round.

Bucks add another second rounder. Now have picks 42, 45, and 60 tonight.

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLi.../1329157055630991360

Yup, just got

Breaking, per an NBA source: The Magic have agreed to trade their second-round pick (45th overall) in tonight’s draft to the Milwaukee Bucks for two future second-round picks.

— Josh Robbins (@JoshuaBRobbins) November 18, 2020

additional 2nd from Orlando:

Well, here’s a list of possible second round sleepers...

https://247sports.com/Article/...-Richards-154920386/

Bucks may be looking to trade back into the first round...

Lovely. WTF

Is that just a hunch, or did you read about a rumor, MC? I like the idea of getting 3 players in a deep second round to fill the roster out, but obviously if there is a guy they really want hanging around late first, those three picks might get a deal done.

@Packdog posted:

Lovely. WTF

This is potentially really bad. How does something like this not get out for 36 hours after the trade?