Latest Update on 2020-21 Season

This is all a joke, and I misplaced my anger against Horst, when it should be with the league and ESPN. Clearly, every deal that is announced the first day of free agency has been in the works. None of those deals just happened in a few minutes or an hour. So, by definition, all those teams have been tampering. The media catches wind of many of these deals ahead of time, but it seems the Bucks were sniped by an ESPN goon and made to look like tamperers, which they are, by definition, but so is absolutely everybody else.

As has been said, it’s all about maximizing broadcast profits in the largest markets, and is obviously unfair to 2/3 of the league. Probably time to change the rules on tampering a bit. If there are punitive measures taken against the Bucks, and this deal is voided, pretty sure Giannis is leaving. That’ll kill basketball in Milwaukee, and the expensive Fiserv Arena will end up a billion dollar paperweight.

That’s entirely possible MP2.  I’m much more skeptical and convinced this is a snipe job being orchestrated by GMs or ESPN as a “gotcha” to get the league to come down on and hose the Bucks.

I mean, Miami and Toronto officials have come right out and stated (directly) they are clearing space to make a run at Giannis.   Golden State wasn’t far behind.  They can hide behind “media sources” but you know damn well some teams in the East are pissed that the Kings and Pelicans allowed those trades to happen.   It not only enhances the Bucks this year and beyond, but it weakens their position as well.   Boston is on record trying to trade for Holiday and they were snubbed.   So maybe Ainge or his handlers have sour grapes and are trying to run interference who knows?   Miami’s situation is far more obvious.  Much like the Knicks last year (hoping to get Durant), the Heat are opening up a max slot for Giannis and have not been shy or coy about it.  So of course Riley would be pissed as these two trades could blow up his entire plan to rule the East.  Toronto is a bit more interesting but Masai Ujiri is very shrewd in his own right and not afraid to make the bold or unpredictable moves like dealing your most popular player for a rental (Kahwi).  Toronto is in an arms race just like Boston and Miami and none of them want to see Milwaukee improve or retain Giannis because they know it hurts their chances to succeed.

Then you have the darkhorse candidate in the East which is Philly.  Daryl Morey and Doc Rivers make that team dangerous and credible as a threat to be taken seriously.  Everyone talks about the Nets, but I’m worried most about the Sixers.  They now have a legit GM and legit coach and a lot of talent either to be coached up or used as bargaining chips to acquire other guys.

The only team that really has a right to be upset at the Bogdanovic trade is Atlanta. They are on record (via O'Connor) as also being interested in trying to sign Bogdanovic in restricted free agency. There are actually already rumblings from the usual media sources of needing to put stars around Trae Young or he'll leave in two years (sound familiar) and, while he's good, he's not a Giannis-level superstar by any means. The Hawks have a right to put their best offer forward.

The next set of stories is going to be Zion Williamson and Morant. There is probably some ESPN reporter ready to drop a story about how Zion's people are worried about putting a winner around him after they traded Holiday for future picks. There will be stories about how the Knicks/Lakers/Warriors/Clippers, etc. are clearing cap space for the 2024 free agent class or to hold assets to do trades in 2023 if Zion says he wants out.

A bit off topic, but now confirmed that Klay Thompson did tear his Achilles’ tendon in a pickup game.

What a devastating blow for him and the team.  

I think Woj broke the story

@Tschmack posted:

A bit off topic, but now confirmed that Klay Thompson did tear his Achilles’ tendon in a pickup game.

What a devastating blow for him and the team.  

If Golden State was a small market team, there would already be stories dropping about how they now need to just rebuild because this lineup isn't doing anything in the West. Curry turns 33 and Draymond turns 31 during the upcoming season. They are going to play alongside Wiggins (a chronic underachiever), Wiseman, and Kevon Looney and a bunch of minimum salary players. Steph, Klay, Draymond, and Wiggins count 120 million against the cap.

I like Klay as a player and it sucks that he probably will never play at a great level again since this injury probably means he doesn't set foot on the court for a regular-season game until well into the latter stages of the 21-22 season. However, their fortunes changed pretty quickly given the fact that Golden State has been tampering with Giannis through the media for the last 2 years, most recently playing up that they would give Wiggins and the #2 pick (and some other filler) for Giannis. The media ate it up to - Klay, Curry, Giannis, and Draymond - what's not to love?

Shit. It really does look like sign-and-trade for Bogdanovic is off.

Waiving Ilyasova means the salaries not longer match.

 

Shams Charania

@ShamsCharania

Milwaukee is waiving forward Ersan Ilyasova, sources tell

@TheAthleticNBA

@Stadium

.

2:56 PM · Nov 19, 2020·TweetDeck

Oh I don’t deny that there’s a part of me that says karma’s a you know what for a team like Golden State.   Honestly it sucks and kind of reminds me a bit of Jabari Parker.  The difference is Thompson and Golden State got 3 titles and Parker and the Bucks were left to wonder “what if?”

I think the Celtics bought their own luck and misfortune by adding guys like Kyrie Irving and then overpaying for Gordon Hayward.   For years they rubbed everyone’s noses in how smart Ainge and Stevens are and what have they accomplished?   Less than the Bucks IMO.  

Then you have the Clippers and the Nets.  It’s already been a disaster for the Clips and I very well think the Nets could be next in line for a massive disappointment.  

This is why Giannis needs to stay in Milwaukee and win a title.  In the NBA, every team has that right of passage before they get over the hump.  You will get knocked down and disappointed in the playoffs.  But if you stick with it, I think they can break through.  

@Tschmack posted:

Oh I don’t deny that there’s a part of me that says karma’s a you know what for a team like Golden State.   Honestly it sucks and kind of reminds me a bit of Jabari Parker.  The difference is Thompson and Golden State got 3 titles and Parker and the Bucks were left to wonder “what if?”

I think the Celtics bought their own luck and misfortune by adding guys like Kyrie Irving and then overpaying for Gordon Hayward.   For years they rubbed everyone’s noses in how smart Ainge and Stevens are and what have they accomplished?   Less than the Bucks IMO.  

Then you have the Clippers and the Nets.  It’s already been a disaster for the Clips and I very well think the Nets could be next in line for a massive disappointment.  

This is why Giannis needs to stay in Milwaukee and win a title.  In the NBA, every team has that right of passage before they get over the hump.  You will get knocked down and disappointed in the playoffs.  But if you stick with it, I think they can break through.  

I don't think Parker was ever going to be a good enough defender to make a difference. Remember, he did get benched by Coach K in the second half of his last game there. He just doesn't have the lateral quickness (even before the knee injuries) to be a good defender.

By waiving Ersan the deal is definitely off now.  That sucks.  However, not all is lost.
They retained DDV.  He has talent, and showed flashes during the regular season of being a key contributor.   He fell off in the postseason but I’m not sure that was all his fault.  Bud’s rotations were a bit sketchy at times.

The Bucks also still have their mid level exception of almost 10MM.   Could they target a Jae Crowder or Joe Harris?    Is there someway possible a Goran Dragic or Danilo Gallinari would sign to chase a ring?

They also have their bi annual exception of around 4MM.    Would it be possible to get Wes Matthews to return?

I guess the way I see it is DDV (assuming  he isn’t dealt) will be their first guy off the bench.  If he can take another step forward in his development he can be a solid player.  As a backup, Sterling Brown isn’t too shabby either.  But it seems to me they need one more guy that can shoot from the outside.  Any of those 4 guys I mentioned above can do that.

The two late second rounders should get lots of run during the regular season, so that’s awesome.

It is what it is.  We can bitch and moan about it but won’t change the outcome.

Bucks still have a chance to add another good player and while DDV isn’t Bogdanovic he’s still pretty good and can get better.

Need to trust that Jon Horst can get them talent.

@tsr86free posted:

If there are punitive measures taken against the Bucks, and this deal is voided, pretty sure Giannis is leaving. That’ll kill basketball in Milwaukee, and the expensive Fiserv Arena will end up a billion dollar paperweight.

There has been a concerted, league-wide effort to get Giannis out of small-market Milwaukee since he started excelling on the floor.

No different than KD or AD and even Lebron who had to get away from his hometown Cavs to initially get a legitimate shot of competing for a championship.

Does anyone truly believe that the boys who run the league and the networks in NYC give a rats arse about killing basketball in out-of-the way Milwaukee (or Minneapolis or Memphis or New Orleans or most of the non-coastal teams)?

I mean, the league/ESPN could move the franchise to Seattle tomorrow and who outside of the not so great # of folks living in SE Wisconsin would even care?

I don't get why they are waiving Ilyasova at this point. If they keep him, they can use his salary as a trade filler. There is also the point they need some actual NBA players for a bench in the regular season. Ersan is by no means a star, but he's a decent bench guy at 7 million and since the Bucks are over the cap anyway you can't add anyone else. Unless someone knows differently, isn't waiving him now just a way to save money on the luxury tax?

@Tschmack posted:

It is what it is.  We can bitch and moan about it but won’t change the outcome.

Bucks still have a chance to add another good player and while DDV isn’t Bogdanovic he’s still pretty good and can get better.

Need to trust that Jon Horst can get them talent.

It's not so much that Bodgnavoic was the difference-maker, it's that he was clearly friends with Giannis and Giannis seemed to be doing the recruiting. In 10-20 years, ESPN will run some 50 for 50 documentary behind the scenes story that will celebrate Pat Riley's genius in scuttling this and forcing Giannis out of Milwaukee.

The Greek Freak isn’t  gonna leave Milwaukee because this deal fell through is he???  Or am I so far behind this conversation?.  Or am I just being me.   

My guess is he will leave, but anything is possible. Only the biggest markets matter to sports and networks. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Either Jon Horst is playing 3D chess or he can't even play checkers. There are two outcomes to this with not a lot of in between.

1. Horst is a genius

Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, Lopez, and Bogdanovic with 3 quality veterans are the rotation for the next 3-4 years. I don't even care if they win a title, I will enjoy watching that team.

2. Horst screwed up.

Bogdanovic doesn't come. Giannis and Holiday both walk after a year. We end up with Middleton, Lopez, and DDV playing with a bunch of scrubs and we won't have a draft choice worth crap for 5 years.

I guess it's also possible that they just decide to trade Giannis now (or he's sent that message to them and Bogdanovic - which is why Bogdanovic isn't coming). Then we end up with some assets but in 45 win purgatory for the next 5 years.

In the end though, instead of paying Brogdon 20 million last year and Ersan 7 million and having those salary slots to trade, they just gave them away for one first-round pick from Indiana (which they then gave away to NOLA for a one-year rental).

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

It's not so much that Bodgnavoic was the difference-maker, it's that he was clearly friends with Giannis and Giannis seemed to be doing the recruiting.......

Plus, Bogdanovic was the perfect compliment to adding Jrue Holiday. Don't want to see DDV's inability to finish or throwing brick after brick any more.

....and was so nice to see DJ headed off.

If Horst can still pull this off it will be a magical act. I sure hope waiving Ersan wasn't just to avoid the luxury tax. Sign and trade with Ersan !!!! Sterling ??

Man, being a fan of this franchise leaves you with that kicked in nuts feeling way to often.

Make no mistake- the highest stakes FA this side of LeBron is Giannis. There is no limits to how far the rest of the league will go to get him. No limits.

But what if there are several layers of misdirection going on here.m? Maybe the plan all along was Brook Lopez. Maybe they floated the deal as DD and spare parts to see who was leaking, knowing they had another plan- and that plan is to move Lopez instead with DJW. Then move DD for PJ Tucker and pick up a draft asset and now they’re adding both Bogdanovic and PJ Tucker...

@SteveLuke posted:

There has been a concerted, league-wide effort to get Giannis out of small-market Milwaukee since he started excelling on the floor.

No different than KD or AD and even Lebron who had to get away from his hometown Cavs to initially get a legitimate shot of competing for a championship.

Does anyone truly believe that the boys who run the league and the networks in NYC give a rats arse about killing basketball in out-of-the way Milwaukee (or Minneapolis or Memphis or New Orleans or most of the non-coastal teams)?

I mean, the league/ESPN could move the franchise to Seattle tomorrow and who outside of the not so great # of folks living in SE Wisconsin would even care?

The league doesn't care obviously. The poor teams that can't attract free-agent stars have to luck out in the draft, and if they do luck out, the player just leaves after they've spent time developing them anyway. It's not sustainable anymore. I guess the marketing is just "come out to FiServe tonight and watch your Milwaukee Bucks play LeBron, AD, and the Lakers" and then hope that LeBron doesn't sit out for load management.

@Music City posted:

Make no mistake- the highest stakes FA this side of LeBron is Giannis. There is no limits to how far the rest of the league will go to get him. No limits.

But what if there are several layers of misdirection going on here.m? Maybe the plan all along was Brook Lopez. Maybe they floated the deal as DD and spare parts to see who was leaking, knowing they had another plan- and that plan is to move Lopez instead with DJW. Then move DD for PJ Tucker and pick up a draft asset and now they’re adding both Bogdanovic and PJ Tucker...

I mean, that makes sense from a playoff rotation perspective since Lopez really only has high value against Embiid. Most of the other Eastern contenders play small-ball lineups that limit his minutes. He doesn't matchup well with anyone on Boston, Miami, or the Nets. It would also be consistent with Robin opting out.

If Horst is really doing this, he's more of a genius than I give him credit for, but I'm skeptical. I still don't know what waiving Ersan gets you, except for some more money in the bank.

I hope you're right. If Giannis does extend with the supermax, it will start a domino effect unlike anything anyone has ever seen in the NBA. All the teams holding back cap space for Giannis (Miami, Toronto, Golden State, Dallas) might spend like drunken sailors even with an economic downturn.

Just fukking wonderful:

The NBA has opened an investigation of the reported transaction involving Milwaukee and Sacramento that was to send Bogdan Bogdanovic to the Bucks via sign-and-trade after Friday's scheduled start of free agency,

has learned

Another guy who’s a FA- Kent Basemore. He played for Budenholzer from 2014-2018.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Just fukking wonderful:

The NBA has opened an investigation of the reported transaction involving Milwaukee and Sacramento that was to send Bogdan Bogdanovic to the Bucks via sign-and-trade after Friday's scheduled start of free agency,

@NYTSports

has learned

Here’s the deal though: reported trade. The trade never happened, and is there proof that it was for sure going to happen? So, ESPN says they were going to do this and that and now the Bucks lose draft picks over it? That sounds like the biggest crock of shit witch-hunt ever conducted. If the Bucks are penalized when we know damn well other teams are and have been tampering for years, I will wash my hands of the NBA, as I suspect others will.

I recall when they hired Jon Horst and was like who the fuck is this guy?  He seemed like their 4th option and a complete putz. Only he’s not.  Or at least up to now he’s not proven to be over his head or incompetent.  In fact, since he took over as GM he’s outplayed all the geniuses including Ainge and Riley among others.  I mean, what move or deal has he fucked up?    I can’t think of one.

As fans (especially this team) we are programmed to think the worst because honestly much like the Brewers there have been a lot of bad decision makers that have made awful choices.  But much like David Stearns, this guy Horst seems to fly under the radar and make a lot of good moves.  To that extent, I have to think he’s got a plan and we just don’t know it quite yet.

For all we know, perhaps Bogdanovic wasn’t the real target at all but someone else instead.  Talk about playing fucking chess.  Not that I’m a betting person but maybe it is a Crowder or Dragic or Gallanari.  We will find out soon enough.

As for the moral and in my view fake outrage over tampering this isn’t the Pony Express SMU scandal.  At worst, signals got crossed so say you are sorry and move on.  If they are trying to make an example out of Milwaukee well heads will roll.  Lasry and Edens aren’t lightweights.  They are New York guys and will tell Silver to go fuck himself if need be.  

This whole thing seems off in so many ways.  Maybe it is.  Not literally but figuratively meaning there is something else coming we just don’t know it yet.

@Tschmack posted:

Lasry and Edens aren’t lightweights.  They are New York guys and will tell Silver to go fuck himself if need be.  

Lasry and Edens will do exactly what Silver and the boys who run the networks in NYC tell them to do.

And they will like it, because, in the end, it means more $$ to them.

These two didn't make their $$$$$$$$$ (and they were not allowed into the NBA owner's club) because they buck their fellow NYC billionaires.

Giannis has made the Bucks a Billion dollar franchise. Doubled their investment. I am guessing the NBA is not going to give these Billionaires a reason to sue the league. If the cut the Bucks off at the pass and facilitate a Giannis departure to a more desirable market, a lawsuit is exactly what Silver would get.

Giannis has a tremendous draw across the globe and that’s something the NBA needs to keep in mind as well.  Surely, they could increase his exposure and visibility in a larger market, but he seems completely fine playing in a place like Milwaukee.

The Bucks are actually darlings of the league and a shining example of how small marker teams can compete.   New arena.  Great fan support.  Popular merchandising.  A decent team with a star player.   For the NBA to keep and attract fans they need more Milwaukee’s and OKCs and New Orleans and Minnesota’s, not less.  They aren’t going to grow their fan base in LA or NY. The Lakers own that market and as bad as the Knicks have been they own that market as well.  

This was posted on the official Bucks Twitter account this morning. Interesting message. I hope this is facing East and not West.

https://twitter.com/Bucks/status/1329779528072368132

It’s over Lake Chernobyl, so....

It’s actually a pretty bold message for Bucks Twitter to send. A “New Dawn” or “Hey look... the sun came out and we’re ok.”

I really do wonder if the Bucks have been playing a pretty well thought out game. It would sure make me happy if they had this much prescience to orchestrate embarrassment for the league’s sources... I’d love it.

I'd prefer a bold message be sent in the playoffs.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

I hope this is facing East and not West.

Well played MP2 !!!

Yeah, hopefully it means : It's a new day in Milwaukee !!!!

And not : We fucked up (lost Bogdan) and the sun still came up !!!

How did "we" fuck up?

Regardless of what happens with the Bogdan trials, it seems unlikely that there is any evidence to convict. There will definitely be more moves, perhaps someone who moves the needle can still be acquired. Glass half full today.

@GBFanForLife posted:

How did "we" fuck up?

Music City has pointed this out (that Horst may be a lot smarter than we think on this and that Horst has been playing the media the whole time). Neither the Bucks nor the Kings eever announced anything and all the reporters said before Woj went with his "official" tweet saying the Bogdanovic deal was done was that Milwaukee was definitely interested in exploring a sign-and-trade for Bogdanovic. That's really not much different than me saying while I was in high school (mid-1980s) that I was definitely interested in exploring dating Alyssa Milano or Phoebe Cates.

The only thing that has me worried is waiving Ersan. I don't get what that does to build a better team except for saving some luxury tax penalties. The Bucks will be over the cap either way and they could have used that salary in a trade or just paid Ilyasova 7 million for a year to have him play 10-15 minutes a night as their bench right now (assuming a starting 5 of Giannis, Brooke, Middleton, DDV, and Holiday) is Wilson, a human victory cigar (Thanasis), and some 2nd round draft picks. Ilyasova is not going to be guard Bam Adebayo or Jayson Tatum in a playoff series, but he's a player we know can still play effectively at the NBA level.

After more thought on this I have to believe it was someone representing Bogs or in his camp to attempt to drive up his price.   The Bucks couldn’t offer as much money as some other teams so let’s just say his agent “contacted” Woj to float the story to scuttle the deal.   The problem is the Kings got screwed over in this deal as much if not more than the Bucks.   They at least would have gotten some assets back in return (like DDV) instead of him signing with another team and they get nothing back.   So nice job.  He might make 4-8MM more over the life of the deal but it also means he’s probably going to play for a team like Atlanta or New York that is going nowhere.    

I mean, don’t get me wrong.  Bogdanovic is a nice player.  But he’s not Jrue Holiday.  He’s not Middleton either.  You can play those games if you are a LeBron or AD or superstar type player because in the end the star players have all the leverage.  But if you aren’t a star player,  your options are a lot more limited.  

To a certain degree, maybe it’s good the deal didn’t work out.  It really would have strapped the Bucks in terms of filing out the rest of the roster.  Now, they keep DDV, and with their MLE and other exception they should be able to add 2 more solid players.  Collectively, they may be better off when it’s all said and done.

Now reports have surfaced that the Lakers are going to sign Bogdanovic. While I was excited at the prospect of him joining the Bucks, if he's that good why wouldn't the Kings want to keep him?

If we hadn't heard about this Bogdanovic sign-and-trade, I think we'd all be fairly optimistic that we had moved a guy that they absolutely couldn't go into another playoff series with (Bledsoe) and a 35-year-old (Hill) for a borderline all-star younger than them both. The draft picks they gave up are not worth much if Giannis resigns, they become much more valuable if he moves on, but they are still just draft picks. In the NBA, if you are not drafting top 2 or 3 it's still a reach because you are drafting 19 year-old kids and there's an AD or Zion once every 3-4 years.

DDV is still an asset, but I still don't the Ilyasova move. That's what worries me.

@Tschmack posted:

After more thought on this I have to believe it was someone representing Bogs or in his camp to attempt to drive up his price.   The Bucks couldn’t offer as much money as some other teams so let’s just say his agent “contacted” Woj to float the story to scuttle the deal.   The problem is the Kings got screwed over in this deal as much if not more than the Bucks.   They at least would have gotten some assets back in return (like DDV) instead of him signing with another team and they get nothing back.   So nice job.  He might make 4-8MM more over the life of the deal but it also means he’s probably going to play for a team like Atlanta or New York that is going nowhere.    

Found this on Twitter. There is no way Horst and the front office wasn't aware of this guys MO.