Was really looking forward to you & MC coming off the bench w/MP2 as player/coach
So this is interesting... they still have DD. Now the Bucks have a crowded backcourt:
PG: Holiday, Augustine
SG: Divincenzo, Forbes, Connaughton
I don’t think Augustine or Forbes signed on to get 12 min/game, but something has to give.
I think Pat C will float between SG and SF. The question is who starts at 2 guard?
@tsr86free posted:Bogdan signs with Hawks. Good riddens. I think the Bucks are pretty much full up now, maybe one more depth piece. Looks solid on paper.
The Hawks signed Gallinari, Bogdanovic, and Rondo for a combined ~50 million.
The fundamental problem for the Hawks is that their featured player, Trae Young, is an atrocious defensive player (defensive rating of 117). For comparison Giannis is best in the league at 97. This is based on points per 100 possessions.
Gallinari is a poor defender as well (111). Bogdanovic is also poor (113). Rondo is a good defender when he cares to try, but they probably aren't getting playoff Rondo.
Atlanta games will be track meets.
@Boris posted:Was really looking forward to you & MC coming off the bench w/MP2 as player/coach
I'm still available to sit next to Thanasis and DJ Wilson.
@Boris posted:Was really looking forward to you & MC coming off the bench w/MP2 as player/coach
I’m retired. In the last 5 years, I have a torn calf, torn plantar fascia, degenerative lower back, a bum shoulder, and about 40 LBs that wasn’t there before. But I’m with MP2- I can be a victory cigar...
@Tschmack posted:I think Pat C will float between SG and SF. The question is who starts at 2 guard?
Maybe that’s what Budenholzer has in mind- a strong competition for the off G minutes. There will be times that the Bucks can roll out Giannis at C, Middleton at F, and 3 guards. Maybe we’ll see it a lot.
I retired as well. The last time I played I partially tore my left calf muscle. I figured that was a sign as I was defending someone about 15 years younger than me.
I can still run and shoot, just not in the same combination at the same time lol.
Thankfully I don’t have any chronic issues like my brother and dad. Both of them had major knee injuries playing football. Worst thing I deal with now is occasional foot soreness from running.
@Music City posted:I’m retired. In the last 5 years, I have a torn calf, torn plantar fascia, degenerative lower back, a bum shoulder, and about 40 LBs that wasn’t there before. But I’m with MP2- I can be a victory cigar...
I did have a career-high of 32 points against that tough Almond-Bancroft High School defense when I was in my prime. If my life depended on hitting a wide-open 3 point shot, I'd want to take it myself instead of Eric Bledsoe or Giannis.
Not to brag, but I averaged 3.1 points per game in the Milwaukee Garden Homes 8th grade hoops league in 1974 as Bartlett Avenue grade schools' power forward...then I retired.
Trade complete:
— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) November 22, 2020
MIL: Jrue Holiday, No. 60 pick Sam Merrill
NOLA: Steven Adams, Eric Bledsoe, ‘25/'27 1sts, ‘24/'26 swaps via MIL
OKC: George Hill, Josh Gray, Kenrich Williams, Zylan Cheatham, Darius Miller, ‘23 protected 1st via Denver, two 2nd round picks
DEN: RJ Hampton
2020 Free Agency Update
IN: Jrue Holiday, DJ Augustine, Bobby Portis, Bryn Forbes, Torrey Craig, Jordan Nwora, Sam Merrill
OUT: Eric Bledsoe, George Hill, Ersan Ilyasova, Wesley Matthews, Robin Lopez, Frank Mason, Sterling Brown, Marvin Williams (retired), Kyle Korver (retired)
RETAINED: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Khris Middleton, Brook Lopez, Donte Divincenzo, Pat Connaughton, DJ Wilson, Thanasis Antetokounmpo
So, how long is Giannis going to wait? All the free agent dominoes have now fallen and it looks like several teams have compromised their teams for this year to stay in the running for Giannis next year.
The Raptors let Ibaka go because they wouldn't go 2 years on his contract and are likely to use Gasol as well. They are much worse.
The Heat let Jae Crowder go and signed Avery Bradley, again because they didn't want to commit to the 2nd year of Crowder's contract. Bradley makes zero sense there given they have a very similar player (Nunn) and he doesn't help them guard Giannis which is still a key to getting out of the East. Iguodala will turn 37 in a few months.
The Celtics lost Gordon Hayward and replaced him with Tristan Thompson. Really?
The Sixers gave up Al Horford for Dwight Howard, who is the worst player you could imagine for spacing the floor when you are playing Embiid and Simmons.
The Hawks have signed every shooting guard/small forward they can find, but they aren't a threat to get out of the East.
The Hornets gave a washed-up 30-year old who was only a 1-time all-star before he got hurt 120 million dollars.
Everybody loves the Nets in the media (they need the ratings from NYC), but they are relying on a guy who hasn't played in 18 months coming off a torn Achilles and Kyrie Irving might be the worst teammate in the league. Durant doesn't have the most durable body type to start with.
The Bucks got the best player that changed teams (Holiday) and have added a lot of good depth.
If Giannis signs the supermax, I would expect the Harden/Westbrook dominoes to fall in terms of trades.
If Giannis doesn't sign, this season is going to be unbearable in terms of the media at every road game.
But it is to the Bucks advantage if Giannis doesn’t sign. Sure, heartburn For everyone in MKE and Bucks fans. But as long as teams hold out hope to get him they’ll avoid deals that help them compete.
That’s a really good breakdown MP2.
For all the people that complain or criticize what the Bucks have done it’s important to note what other teams in the East have done.
Milwaukee made the best move in the East by basically trading Bledsoe for Holiday. He’s not a liability offensively like Bled and he’s comparable defensively. Yes I know they gave up picks but Hill is offset by Augustin. DDV and Pat C are back. Forbes is a sneaky good player that offensively is better than Matthews. Torrey Craig fills role of defensive specialist vacated by Wes Matthews and Marvin Williams. Portis is an athletic upgrade off the bench in the frontcourt instead of Ersan. About the only area they might be worse is a true backup at C with Robin Lopez departing. But R Lopez didn’t see a lot of playing time anyway.
What’s key is Middleton and Giannis need to stay healthy. They don’t have much behind them but honestly they didn’t this past season either.
@Tschmack posted:What’s key is Middleton and Giannis need to stay healthy. They don’t have much behind them but honestly they didn’t this past season either.
Of course... if the Lakers lose LeBron or AD or both, they aren’t contenders either.
But what is important is that Giannis rounds out his game. A counter move to the wall. A confident step back, pull up, jump hook, baseline turnaround... I think these are more important than the three point shot.
Bur the other guys must improve, too. Middleton ball handling and shot selection, making the smarter, higher % play.
We’ll also see if there’s something to the Budenholzer defensive scheme. The Bucks have added athleticism on the perimeter, better on ball defenders. I suspect they don’t plan to change the drop P&R defense- instead relying upon the improved athleticism to chase the ball rotations down to contest the shots they couldn’t get to last year.
And when teams go small, the Bucks can go small too and still have Giannis on the floor. In fact, if Giannis improves his post up game, and teams go small, he should feast. And that how you win in the playoffs- you can counter their counter and still dictate how the game is played. Miami did this in the playoffs, and they won’t be able to do that now.
The Bucks built their team last year to contend with teams like Philly that had a lot of size in their frontcourt. They struggled against teams like Miami that could go smaller and it made some of their guys like Robin Lopez and Ersan unplayable.
Clearly they have upgraded their outside shooting. Basically everyone they added w/exception of Torrey Craig can shoot the 3 pretty well. They also got younger and more athletic at most of their positions.
Maybe now Bud finally has the roster he needs to work his scheme of spreading the floor and shooting 3s. In theory, that should open up the lane(s) again for Giannis. But Giannis also needs to come prepared this year to elevate his game offensively. He did improve the 3 pt shooting but honestly if he can do what Garnett and Duncan did with their midrange game he would be unstoppable.
All great players spend the offseason working on their game and I’m hopeful he’s added more tools to the toolbox.
@Tschmack posted:The Bucks built their team last year to contend with teams like Philly that had a lot of size in their frontcourt. They struggled against teams like Miami that could go smaller and it made some of their guys like Robin Lopez and Ersan unplayable.
Clearly they have upgraded their outside shooting. Basically everyone they added w/exception of Torrey Craig can shoot the 3 pretty well. They also got younger and more athletic at most of their positions.
Maybe now Bud finally has the roster he needs to work his scheme of spreading the floor and shooting 3s. In theory, that should open up the lane(s) again for Giannis. But Giannis also needs to come prepared this year to elevate his game offensively. He did improve the 3 pt shooting but honestly if he can do what Garnett and Duncan did with their midrange game he would be unstoppable.
All great players spend the offseason working on their game and I’m hopeful he’s added more tools to the toolbox.
If the Bucks don't draw Miami, they probably make it out of the East this year. They were the worst possible matchup. Miami replicated what Toronto did the year before (a bunch of 3 point shooters, a guy that could slow Giannis down 1 x 1, and a bunch of help defenders that could build the wall). Boston lacked the latter 2 things, Philly didn't have the 3 point shooters, Toronto minus Kawhi was not as tough an out, and the Pacers weren't going to be close to them.
And even with the bad draw (Miami specifically went and got Crowder and Iguodala at the trade deadline for a Bucks matchup), if Bledsoe doesn't meltdown again, I think the Bucks still win. I really like Bledsoe as a try-hard, high effort guy, so watching him out there in 4th quarters being left wide open and the fact he knew he was probably going to fail was just sad. You could see it on his face and in his body language. Running him back for three years in a row when that was the main reason they lost in the playoffs each year (that and Giannis not being able to hit 15 foot jump shots but you aren't trading him) was malpractice by the front office.
Well, I’m glad someone else stated what I’ve been saying about Bledsoe. In the playoffs, he became an absolute liability on offense and you could not play him down the stretch. He also struggled big time running the point in the half court sets. He excelled in the regular season because they could get out and run and play transition but come playoffs the teams get better and defenses tighten up and the pace slows. Basically all of his warts got exposed and you could see how it affected others as well. Instead of playing loose and relaxed they got anxious and rushed shots or turned the ball over.
The way you beat the Bucks is launch and hit a bunch of 3s and get physical and frustrate Giannis. Toronto did that and Miami took it a step further. Now, with this revamped roster, teams can still bomb away but this Bucks team will have more and better options offensively which should lead to less pressure on Giannis and ideally more open looks for the shooters for them to knock down those shots.
@Tschmack posted:Well, I’m glad someone else stated what I’ve been saying about Bledsoe. In the playoffs, he became an absolute liability on offense and you could not play him down the stretch. He also struggled big time running the point in the half court sets. He excelled in the regular season because they could get out and run and play transition but come playoffs the teams get better and defenses tighten up and the pace slows. Basically all of his warts got exposed and you could see how it affected others as well. Instead of playing loose and relaxed they got anxious and rushed shots or turned the ball over.
The way you beat the Bucks is launch and hit a bunch of 3s and get physical and frustrate Giannis. Toronto did that and Miami took it a step further. Now, with this revamped roster, teams can still bomb away but this Bucks team will have more and better options offensively which should lead to less pressure on Giannis and ideally more open looks for the shooters for them to knock down those shots.
Bledsoe really excels in the regular season because he does most of his damage against the guys in deeper regular season rotations and against the lower guys in the league. Obviously everyone looks better against poorer defenders, but a 6'1" guy whose main skill is driving all the way to the basket to overpower guys is not going to be able to do that against playoff defenses when non-Bud coaches shrink to the rotation to 8 guys. Bledsoe would have been a great matchup against Kemba Walker on both ends of the court, but they didn't get that draw.
I love bucks fans 🙏
— Donte DiVincenzo (@Divincenzo) November 23, 2020
Now ESPN is speculating about a LeBron, AD, and Giannis super team next year in LA. If Harden goes to Brooklyn as he wants that would make it so more than half of the top 10 players are in LA or NY. ESPN must not watch anyone else to watch games.
Latest rumor is if Nicholas Batum clears waivers and becomes a free agent he could be signed for a reasonable price like the 2.5MM vet minimum similar to what Wes Matthews signed last year.
Until this last season he was a starter for Charlotte and a pretty solid 2 way player. He’d be the perfect backup to Middleton at the 3 spot and like others he shoots the 3 pretty well.
@Tschmack posted:Latest rumor is if Nicholas Batum clears waivers and becomes a free agent he could be signed for a reasonable price like the 2.5MM vet minimum similar to what Wes Matthews signed last year.
Until this last season he was a starter for Charlotte and a pretty solid 2 way player. He’d be the perfect backup to Middleton at the 3 spot and like others he shoots the 3 pretty well.
This is where Horst messing up with the cap situation hurts. If I read it correctly, the Bucks literally cannot sign another player even for the minimum. It gets into some esoteric points of cap management and has to do with how "unlikely" versus "likely" bonuses in Holiday's contract count against the cap differently if you are hard-capped like the Bucks now are. The link I posted a few days ago goes through how the Bucks messed up on all this (Connaughton's contract, not looking for a way to get some small trade exemptions, etc.).
The Bucks lack of detailed knowledge about the cap prevents them from being a suitor of Batum (I think).
I didn’t fully understand the cap situation only that if they were and did sign him it would have luxury tax implications.
Jrue is a Buck.#FearTheDeer | @Jrue_Holiday11 pic.twitter.com/LSdsrnzHlM
— Milwaukee Bucks (@Bucks) November 24, 2020
Big media speculation on Giannis to Lakers. Fawning over LeBron, Unibrow and Giannis on same team. I don’t think that can even work, but if it did I think interest would plummet in any non-LA area.
Announcement went out this afternoon that Adebayo is signing his max extension. The speculation was that he would wait until after this season to keep money free to sign Giannis as a free agent first, and then sign (like the pundits are predicting AD and LeBron will do in LAL). That's a positive development if you are a Bucks fan, especially since Adebayo and Giannis share the same agent. Now the Heat do not have a way to sign Giannis to a max offer even with renouncing most of their contracts. Some have estimated this leaves them almost 8 million a year short of a max contract (on top of the 80 million cumulativce Giannis would be giving up in Milwaukee to sign anywhere else). They'd have to do a sign-and-trade which would probably mean giving up Adebayo in any scenario (which would defeat the purpose of Giannis going there to join a superteam). This probably means Riley has given up a realistic hope of getting Giannis there.
Probably leaves the Raptors, Lakers, and Mavs as potential landing spots for the media to push.
I was concerned upon learning that Giannis and Bam had the same agent but agree it’s a positive development for the Bucks and retaining Giannis. If nothing else, it likely removes Miami from consideration and they were or are the team I am most worried about snagging him.
The other thing is Bam has more than earned the extension. There’s no upside for team chemistry or morale to drag this out. Sign the guy and see what happens in the offseason. A distracted or pissed off Bam AND not getting Giannis turns a good situation into a bad one for the Heat.
Bucks kicking the tires on Batum, but would have some cap challenges.
Watching some of Holiday’s highlights, fuck he’s good. Really smart, intuitive, and Giannis finally has someone who can feed him near the basket.
Not sure how much Batum has lost in the last two years, but he was a heck of a player for CHA in his mid to late 20s. Could be a bargain if they can shoehorn him in.
@Music City posted:Watching some of Holiday’s highlights, fuck he’s good. Really smart, intuitive, and Giannis finally has someone who can feed him near the basket.
Holiday is the second-best player that changed teams this offseason. Chris Paul is better, but a lot older and a lot more expensive.
If Holiday would have gone to a big market, ESPN would be raving about how underrated he is. Kevin Durant named him as the guy who is the toughest defender on him in the league.
It's also interesting that failing to get Bogdanovic is being framed as a fatal mistake by the Bucks. I like Bogdanovic, but how many star players in the league would be allowed to leave with a half-max contract that you could match for no compensation? I think the Kings are stupid for not matching and then trading him somewhere next year, but it does say a lot about him.
It looks like nothing will change for the Bucks even if Giannis signs the extension in terms of the media narrative that he's too good for the Bucks. Everyone is assuming he'll likely sign the supermax so now Marc Stein is reporting that Giannis will sign the supermax but then force his way out with a trade demand in a year or two.
https://basketball.realgm.com/...-For-Trade-In-Future
"A belief was building that Antetokounmpo was likely to opt for immediate financial security by signing before the season and quietly reserving the right to try to force a trade later if he was unhappy, as [Paul] George did one season after re-signing in Oklahoma City," adds Stein in his reporting.
Hoopshype ran a good article this morning outlining how the 4 teams could land Giannis given current cap situations and possibilities. The bottom line is other than the Lakers, the Heat, Raptors, and Mavericks will not have enough cap space to sign him to a max deal in the offseason. As for LAL, they could make it happen but would involve LeBron and AD taking a sizable pay cut in order to make it happen. Possible? Perhaps. Likely? I doubt it.
Of course that assumes Giannis will walk away from almost 80MM in real money by not signing the max with the Bucks. Look, I’m no financial expert, but who in their right mind would leave that much money on the table? And it’s not like Milwaukee is a bad situation - new arena, competitive roster, adoring fans, etc. Yes it’s small market but he’s treated like a king in that town.
The reality is this- there is no upside to Giannis not signing the extension before the deadline. I get the idea he may want to “shop around” but given what we know now about the other possible landing spots what will change in a year? Him not signing is going to make the pressure to win almost unbearable for him and the team and serve as a major distraction this year. It could derail the season before it even starts. Then he just up and leaves after what would likely be another disappointing season and how will his legacy be defined? If Durant was bad then Giannis will be much worse. He will be the most hated player in the NBA. So why put yourself through that?
If at some point he truly wants out of Milwaukee he can always ask for a trade while under contract. I mean, that’s basically what Paul George did with OKC. That actually worked out well for both sides. The Thunder got a decent return back and George got to his preferred location in LA.
Assuming Giannis signs and Holiday re-ups for at least next season the Bucks are the clear favorite to win the East and I think have a fighting chance to beat the WC opponent. If Holiday extends beyond 2021 their odds may even improve because LeBron won’t play forever and Kahwi and PG13 likely won’t stay in LA long term either.
If money and winning matter then Milwaukee is the obvious choice.
Giannis has been working with Bucks management the entire time. He met with them, they talked about what the options were, and you can bet they’re talking to him now. Click bait nonsense. There are some insiders already conceding that he’s staying. The Heat just extended Adebayo, and unless the Bucks moves this year lead to another total collapse, he’s staying here to make it work.
The Lakers added a bunch of salary as well with their moves. Not sure why they would do that unless they thought he was off the market.
Some more information leaking out about Bogdanovic. It looks like Thanasis was the one "tampering."
If you read between the lines, this is what I guess happened (outlined below) which really was that Bogdanovic calculated he wasn't getting the money he thought he should and backed out. From reading this, it really does look like the Bucks never talked to him directly but the Kings were talking with him about sending him to Milwaukee and the Kings and Bucks were talking. E
1. Early on, the Kings talked about getting Bledsoe in the sign-and-trade along with DDV. Bledsoe makes about 17 million a year which was in line with what Bogdanovic thought he could get on the open market (up to 20 million if you include DDV's cap).
2. Bledsoe gets sent to New Orleans for Holiday, which causes the Bucks to rework the Kings trade to include Ilyasova, DDV, and Wilson. The problem is that only gets you to about 15 million in salary for a sign-and-trade. There were probably other ways to increase that salary by doing something with Sterling Brown or Frank Mason in some kind of sign-and-trade that the teams could work out over the next few days but it was going to be more complicated. However, I would guess that Bogdanovic (or, more likely, his agent) got pissed when they found out Bledsoe was going to the Pelicans and the salary they wanted was tougher to get to. They leak the trade to the media. Other GM's see an opening and lodge tampering complaints.
3. Now that the Kings deal if off the table, the Bucks can't afford to guarantee Ilyasova's 7 million as it would lock them out of being able to sign other free agents to fill out their rotation due to a hard cap situation, so they have to release him before the money is guaranteed.
4. Bogdanovic's agent now is in scramble mode. All the other free agents probably have been setting up their guy's deals behind the scenes for days, if not weeks, and a lot of the money is already been quietly committed. All of sudden, Bogdanovic is linked to multiple teams (the Lakers and the Pacers were floated) most likely leaked by his agent (who has a terrible reputation for being shady). The Pacers actually publicly denied any interest, which meant they were probably irritated at being used to try to drive up the market. A bunch of teams with potential cap space (Heat, Mavs, Raptors, Celtics, Knicks, and Hawks) are still holding back perhaps in part to conserve space to go after Giannis next year.
5. The Hawks finally bite and sign him, maybe even bidding against themselves at this point. Bogdanovic doesn't want to go back to the Kings, so they put some poison pills in to discourage matching the contract (trade kickers, no-trade clauses). I think most people still thought the Kings would match (why wouldn't you to get a tradeable asset even if you have to hold onto him for a year).
6. The Kings fail to match and Bogdanovic goes to the Hawks. He will join a team that signed two other shooting guards in free agency (Gallinari, Rondo) that already has Trae Young playing point guard and jacking up 21 shots a game and a bunch of other guys to play the 2/3 spots in DeAndre Hunter, Cam Reddish, Kevin Huerter, and, of course, our old favorite, Tony Snell who is still guaranteed 10 million this year. With the exception fo Snell, these guys all have some trade value, but don't make sense on a roster together right now. Rondo is the most curious signing since he is completely disinterested in most regular-season games but decides to turn into Playoff-Rondo in the post-season.
7. Because of the way it all worked out the Bucks had to choose between Holiday and Bogdanovic. They made the right choice. The Bucks fill out the roster with a bunch of other rotation guys. None are as good as Bogdanovic, but it's a solid rotation with much better shooting than last year overall. Perhaps most importantly, they keep DDV who may still turn into something resembling a Tyler Herro type that actually plays defense. I'd rather have DDV and Augustin/Portis/Forbes than Bogdanovic and probably only one of those other 3.
8. Who wins the most of out this? Bogdanovic and his agent get paid. If he wanted to play with Giannis, he could have for probably 15-16 million a year. He got 18 million a year. You can't blame a guy for cashing in on an extra 8-12 million over 4 years, but this was the end game all along. It's unlikely he puts up big stats in Atlanta because there just aren't enough shots to go around, so it's likely he's on the move in a year or two in some type of deal when the Hawks look to get a star they think might be out there in a sign-and-trade (Harden, Giannis, Kawhi, etc.) next year.
9. Who loses? I would argue the Bucks don't really lose. In the end they chose Holiday over Bogdanovic. In other words, a player it seemed like every contender wanted (Sixers, Celtics, etc.) over a guy that even with a half-max contract his current team decided wasn't worth matching. Think about that, you have the space and you decide to let him go for no compensation. Maybe they are just cheap, but that's still an interesting message to send about his value.
But the biggest losers are the Kings (who would have gotten DDV) and, most of all, Ersan Ilyasova, who lost 7 million dollars in a 24 hour period.