Latest Update on 2020-21 Season

@Packdog posted:

At least we won't have to see this anymore....Bledsoe left open in the corner.

I would guess that Tyler Herro should be matched up on Bledsoe. Butler is on Middleton and Dragic is on Hill. Crowder is on Giannis and Lopez is posted underneath on Adebayo right after an offensive rebound.

Giannis gets fouled at this point by Crowder.

1:45		Giannis Antetokounmpo makes free throw 1 of 2	111 - 103
1:45		Wesley Matthews enters the game for George Hill	111 - 103
1:45		Giannis Antetokounmpo makes free throw 2 of 2

Lost in the discussion of Giannis and whether he will sign the Supermax is probably the most important factor- that Giannis needs to get better offensively.

I don’t know how much improvement we should expect with an abbreviated off-season and all the attention on the free agency period. Some players who did not play in the bubble have had since March to work on their games (if they were smart). The Bucks season ended September 8th. It’s been 3 months, and the season starts in 3 weeks. Last year their season ended May 25th, and starting again October 24th. That’s about a full month less off-season, plus for that first month Giannis probably wasn’t playing to allow his ankle to heal. I don’t think Giannis is going to start this season with more trucks in the bag. The league knows how to defend him in the playoffs.

2020-21 may not be as good a year as we would hope- and considering Holiday could opt out after this season and after all they gave up to get him it’s all in this year. All in... and he’s not going to be better offensively, which I think he’ll need to be if there’s a LO’B in his future.

My God the front office better know what they’re doing... Giannis signs the Supermax, Holiday extends, The new G rotation is lights out, and Portis used his time off wisely- he’s their only front court depth besides DJW, and we kinda know what we have with him at this point.

Giannis needs to stay hungry. I think he will, but the fear in the back of my mind is that he'll become a bit of a diva if he's not careful.

He also needs to sign that SuperMax (or at least go sign a 2 and 1 deal). The 2 and 1 actually makes sense since if he plays 3 more years with the Bucks (this year plus the 2-year extension) he's then eligible for an even larger supermax as a 10-year vet. It would also provide him security against injury while also maintaining the flexibility to leave at age 28 if things don't go well.

If he doesn't somehow extend, every game against a glamour team until the trading deadline is going to be about "auditioning." Every game after the deadline is going to be about whether he's positioning himself for his free agency. Wisconsin sports fans have a milder version of this before when Mike Holmgren was more focused on getting to Seattle than he was optimizing the Packers' chances in 1998. Remember Holmgren yelling at a fan in the tunnel who said something about Mike leaving? All of that will be 1/10th of what we'll see on the Bucks if he doesn't extend. But it's even worse, because the Packers still kept a roster that had a chance to contend. The Bucks are toast if he leaves. 

That’s a fair point- a 2 and 1 deal does position him for the 10 year monster extension. He’s the “bet on myself” type...

@Boris posted:

The @Bucks debut their blue 2020-21 City Edition uniforms. pic.twitter.com/HfK1jm5PM8

— Lily Zhao (@LilySZhao) December 1, 2020

Zhao you doing?!

The pressure will be unreal if he doesn’t sign the max before Dec 21.  Honestly, there’s no reason for him not to.  If he doesn’t, then you trade him.  He’s not giving you security so you don’t give him any either.

Speaking of December...

More interesting info...

@Packdog posted:

At least we won't have to see this anymore....Bledsoe left open in the corner.

NFS....Absolutely dare them to leave Jrue that wide open.

https://sports.yahoo.com/repor...ogdan-000011478.html

I just read that article and I am perplexed.

So Bogdanovic didn’t want to be the 4th option?  Tough shit.  You would have been but that butthurt aside, can someone tell me why dealing away DDV and not adding Holiday but adding BB is better than keeping DDV and adding Holiday but not BB?    I mean, Sam Amick is a respected guy but that article is pure bullshit.

The powers that be were pissed that Milwaukee was able to land Holiday (which no one expected by the way) and not the “sure thing” in Bogs because they had been reporting it for days.   It’s almost like the Bucks gave the NBA and the media the middle finger with that move.  They simply cannot give the Bucks credit for it and once Giannis extends their collective heads will explode because there will be nothing to report about or speculate for the 2020/2021 season.   Poor babies!

The most ridiculous thing about that article was how they are building up Bogs like he’s some kind of transcendent player.  I mean, he’s decent.  But he’s not a difference maker just like Brodgon wasn’t a difference maker.  By the way, if he was why was it the Lakers and Heat and Celtics and Sixers and other so called contending teams didn’t pull out all the stops to pursue him?

Simply put, guys that score 15-18 PPG and shoot the ball well but don’t play defense or rebound and don’t have elite athleticism aren’t that coveted.   There are probably at least 25-30 players in the league that fit that description and few if any of them are All Star type players.  

On the other hand, there aren’t 25-30 Jrue Holiday type players out there.   Middleton is just as good if not better offensively and he’s a much better defender and quite frankly isn’t the drama queen that it appears BB is.

Yup, BB is JAG.

Why were some of us elated a month or so ago when we thought we had him?

Why were some of us upset when it all went south?

Sports and sports fandom can be confusing at times.

Yeah, the opinion of this guy has been a rollercoaster.

Can't say I've read many articles, but for me the Bogdan loss and Connaughton  "re-do" creates a lot of doubt in the Bucks FO. Did they not understand the Salary Cap in terms of Early Bird, MLE, and Hard Cap they were flirting with ?

Am thrilled with Jrue Holiday. Guy is really under rated as one of the best 2 way players in the league. One of the things that drove me nuts about Bledsoe(more than his playoff shooting) was him playing out of control and being careless with the ball at crucial moments!!!

Here is a nice series on Holiday playing defense.....Guy can really defend:

So BB got a few million more bucks and is potentially the #4 guy for a lesser team. Shrug.

I think he got a lot more money from ATL but probably preferred to play with the Bucks as they are a much better team.  Seems to me he or his agent were annoyed the Bucks traded for Holiday.  They probably figured it was a done deal (BB to Milwaukee) until it wasn’t.  

@Tschmack posted:

I think he got a lot more money from ATL but probably preferred to play with the Bucks as they are a much better team.  Seems to me he or his agent were annoyed the Bucks traded for Holiday.  They probably figured it was a done deal (BB to Milwaukee) until it wasn’t.  

The article also implies it wasn't just the money, but that he was annoyed that he might only be the 4th option and not get enough shots. Unless Giannis was truly only staying if they brought BB in (which would seem to be crazy), then the Bucks dodged a bullet.

Kevin Durant on Jrue Holiday. He sounds particular good at getting around screens for 3 point shooters.

https://lonzowire.usatoday.com...-redick-all-defense/

“Jrue Holiday is solidified as probably the best defender in the league at the guard position. When we talk about defense, a lot of people don’t really understand what defense really means. For different positions, especially at point guard, the stuff you have to do to guard, they don’t get a lot of credit for fighting over screens especially now they getting screened at half court, guys are running off of pindowns. ”

“You put Jrue in any system, any coach is going to ask him to guard the best player. We played them in 2018, second round and he guarded me the whole series. He was picking me up full court, he was guarding me in the post. Actually, it was tough to dribble on Jrue Holiday. He slides his feet so well, he’s got good hands, he’s strong, he’s got good instincts. I gained a lot of respect for him in that series because he went from guarding me to Klay (Thompson) to Steph (Curry) to guarding Draymond (Green), neutralizing picks and rolls. He’s special. He’s special on that side of the ball.”

LeBron James just signed a 2 year, 85 million dollar extension. That pretty much closes the door on the Giannis to LA Lakers stuff.

The other interesting NBA news is the Atheltic article on Kawhi and Paul George's special treatment with the Clippers. Kawhi used to be late to practices because he lived in San Diego and unknown players ripping those two for picking when they practiced, played, etc., and ruining their culture. I bet it's Doc Rivers that's the source.

The Clippers are so fucked and the Nets aren’t far behind.

You sell your collective souls for these mercurial hired guns like Kyrie and PG13 and when it goes south it will end badly.

As for LeBron, you look at the financials of that deal there is no way they can make it work for Giannis unless AD wants to play for 10MM a year

@Pikes Peak posted:

Yup, BB is JAG.

Why were some of us elated a month or so ago when we thought we had him?

Why were some of us upset when it all went south?

Sports and sports fandom can be confusing at times.

Because he’s a really good offensive player who’s on the rise and would have fit perfectly with this team. I don’t know if he’s a dick, his agent’s a dick, or both of them. The whole thing just sucked- made the management look bad/incompetent, even amateurish... and that’s never good when you’re trying to convince the first transcendent player in 2 generations to stay in town.

That said, they did a good job recovering. They put together solid pieces and depth, and now we wait for Giannis’ decision. If the whole Bogdanovic thing never happens, I would say they got better. I would have felt a lot better if they had Bogdanovic plus the other deals that still fit.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

LeBron James just signed a 2 year, 85 million dollar extension. That pretty much closes the door on the Giannis to LA Lakers stuff.

The other interesting NBA news is the Atheltic article on Kawhi and Paul George's special treatment with the Clippers. Kawhi used to be late to practices because he lived in San Diego and unknown players ripping those two for picking when they practiced, played, etc., and ruining their culture. I bet it's Doc Rivers that's the source.

Hell, it’s Rivers’ fault! He created the monster by his “player’s coach” bullshit...

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/...und-pick-per-report/

Wall is a Rocket

@Boris posted:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/...und-pick-per-report/

Wall is a Rocket

Westbrook is a Wizard.

Westbrook and Beal don't seem like a really good combination. Maybe Beal is on the move as well?

Rockets sure are making some interesting moves. That contract though...

@Music City posted:

Rockets sure are making some interesting moves. That contract though...

They basically ended up trading Chris Paul and the net of one first round pick for John Wall. Westbrook and Wall have basically the same contract which runs one more season than Paul’s.

if you go back further (only 2017), none of the Players the Rockets traded for Paul are still with the Clippers.

In the NBA’s second blockbuster trade in less than a week, the Rockets acquired Paul from the Los Angeles Clippers on Wednesday in exchange for Patrick Beverley, Lou Williams, Sam Dekker, Montrezl Harrell, Darrun Hilliard, DeAndre Liggins, Kyle Wiltjer, a protected first-round pick next year and cash considerations. The Rockets acquired Hilliard from Detroit and Liggins from Dallas for cash considerations before adding them to the deal.

Has any first ballot Hall of Farmer been traded as often as Paul? Pelicans, Lakers (trade voided), Clippers, Rockets, Thunder, and Suns.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

LeBron James just signed a 2 year, 85 million dollar extension. That pretty much closes the door on the Giannis to LA Lakers stuff.

With AD signed for 5 year, $190M, I think it’s a done deal- Giannis signs a contract with the Bucks, now. Whether it’s a 2+1 or the full blown Supermax, the timing shows that these deals are all related, and the league wants headlines. This is Lakers week... next week is Bucks week..

The AD and LeBron contracts mean the Lakers have no real means to sign Giannis.  The only way to get him would be a trade and honestly the Lakers don’t have the players or cache (draft picks) to make it happen.  At least not in the short term anyway.  Perhaps if LeBron opts out or doesn’t extend in 2 years.  But it ain’t happening IMO.

Much like the Bam extension in Miami I think the smart money is on Giannis extending with the Bucks.   For all the tampering talk I’m sure these moves are just pure coincidental lol.  As in the agents and players aren’t talking.  

There seems to be a common denominator with Paul and Westbrook and Irving and a few others that have been traded multiple times.  It’s not just about their skills and abilities.

Pound for pound Russ might be the most talented and athletic player in the NBA.  He’s an absolute beast.  But I have to think his style or attitude must rub teammates the wrong way.   Or perhaps he’s just a player that doesn’t really fit a specific role very well.  He’s not really a point guard and not really a shooting guard.  

Ironically, coming out of the draft he was being compared to Rondo and further back Monta Ellis.   Two guys not exactly known for getting along with others.

Westbrook can't shoot.  He's a misfit toy in today's NBA.

Yup - No way Giannis is in LA now-- Maybe LA was terrified of AD coming to Milwaukee? F U NBA

All-NBA forward Anthony Davis is finalizing a five-year, $190M maximum contract to stay with the Los Angeles Lakers, @KlutchSports CEO Rich Paul tells ESPN. The deal includes an early termination option prior to fifth season in 2024-2025. Deal could be signed as soon as today.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) December 3, 2020

The other thing to consider is no way would ADs agent or Klutch Sports have their clients take a sizable reduction to be able to add Giannis.  I mean,  LeBron didn’t so why think that AD would?  

I did think it was hilarious that Giannis said “come join me in Milwaukee” then the AD news breaks about a 5yr deal.  Maybe the Freak and Bucks are the real puppet masters here.  FU NBA indeed.

@Tschmack posted:

There seems to be a common denominator with Paul and Westbrook and Irving and a few others that have been traded multiple times.  It’s not just about their skills and abilities.

Pound for pound Russ might be the most talented and athletic player in the NBA.  He’s an absolute beast.  But I have to think his style or attitude must rub teammates the wrong way.   Or perhaps he’s just a player that doesn’t really fit a specific role very well.  He’s not really a point guard and not really a shooting guard.  

Ironically, coming out of the draft he was being compared to Rondo and further back Monta Ellis.   Two guys not exactly known for getting along with others.

Rondo is an interesting guy. He fits well with other guys on the court because he doesn't really want to shoot. The problem is that he can't get along with guys off the court. Ray Allen and him despised each other and they fit together on the court as well as any guards could (Rondo's pass-first mentality and defensive ability perfectly complemented Ray (especially late-career Ray).

Monta Ellis, Westbrook, and Kyrie all want to jack up 20+ shots a game. They often don't fit well on the court with other ball-dominant guys. It will be interesting seeing how the Durant-Kyrie and Beal-Westbrook situations play out.

@Tschmack posted:

I did think it was hilarious that Giannis said “come join me in Milwaukee” then the AD news breaks about a 5yr deal.  Maybe the Freak and Bucks are the real puppet masters here.  FU NBA indeed.

Like I said... they’re related. Giannis and his camp are pulling strings here I think... Clutch has been playing like they can do anything they want, and the Giannis camp forces the Lakers to burn more 💰 on their stars. A little squeeze before Giannis signs his deal. The player empowerment era coming to an end in that super teams are going to be harder to create? Guys like Paul/Harden/Westbrook no longer able to force teams to trade to the big markets?

The Bucks ownership isn’t stupid either... the more power the big markets have, the longer it takes for a team like Milwaukee to build a contender. They’re swimming against the current but it sure would be great to see that happen... legitimizing teams like Milwaukee, Utah, Denver... we can hope, can’t we?

The advantage the so called big markets have is they are typically more appealing locations for players.   They can provide more entertainment and sponsorship options.  Not to mention the league can promote and market players much easier in those big markets due to larger and broader media exposure and other related opportunities.

That being said, star players gravitating to only a few teams creates a vicious cycle in that there’s no loyalty or roster continuity. Players want the freedom of movement so they will sign shorter deals with out clauses and player only option features.  

So teams like LA and Houston and now Brooklyn are churning their rosters just about every year or two.  I don’t think that’s good for organizations because while they want to win they also want stability.  Consistency.  Predictability.  So do most fans.  The other concern is they often have to surrender draft picks to acquire these star  players.   We’ve seen how that can impact teams (long term) when those star players get bored or want to move again.  There’s no penalty to the player(s), but for a team that can’t add and develop younger players through the draft it’s a big risk.  

What is changing though is the next group of up and comers like Giannis and Doncic and Jokic aren’t from here so their priorities seem more suited toward the team and less about the individual.   As more foreign born players become star players it threatens the LeBron and KD and Kyrie model.   That’s why I think you are seeing such a negative reaction toward a team like Milwaukee.  They aren’t just falling in line.  They are flipping the script and maybe it starts a trend the other way, who knows?  

What I do know is this - Miami, the Lakers, Golden State and probably Toronto have also made some questionable decisions- either by being too aggressive or not aggressive enough- trying to outsmart each other and position themselves to land Giannis.  The Knicks did this recently by assuming they had Kyrie and KD in the bag.  And it blew up in spectacular fashion.  They ended up filling up their roster and overpaying for other lesser talented guys.  

Meanwhile, the Bucks fly under the radar and add a guy like Holiday.   I’d argue it’s the single most important and significant acquisition in this offseason even if the media wants to ignore or downplay it and talk about Bogdanovic or tampering instead.  There’s no way Milwaukee makes that move if they didn’t think Giannis would stay.  And now it appears he or his camp we’re screwing with the big boys in the process.   The cherry on top would be extending Holiday and winning a couple of titles all while giving the rest of the league a big middle finger during the process.  It’s entirely possible given LeBron’s age and uncertainty with the Clippers and Klay injury which all throws a wrench in their long term plans to rule the league.  Milwaukee could step right in and fill that vacuum for next half decade.

Jrue Holiday on staying in Milwaukee:

”Man, I’m really trying to win, to be completely honest. I’m trying to put banners up there, put a ring on my finger, and I’m trying to have fun doing it. This really seems like it could be the place for that.”

👍😃

This is the best testament to how good this guy is !!

Here's him and his wife talking about the Cream City:

"I'm trying to put banners up there, a ring on my finger, and I'm tryin' to have fun doing it..."@Jrue_Holiday11 and @laurenholiday12 joined @ChrisBHaynes on Posted Up to talk about their future with the @Bucks.

Full clip ➡️ https://t.co/BtT0JBQFhR pic.twitter.com/2Z7vF41eJ1

— Yahoo Sports NBA (@YahooSportsNBA) December 3, 2020

The NBA needs to have stars stay in places longer because they need continuity. Otherwise you are just rooting for clothing.

Of the Bucks players likely to be in an 8 man playoff rotation (Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, Holiday, DDV, Forbes, Augustin, and Portis), 3 of them are guys the Bucks drafted or developed. I count Middleton as a Buck because he was a throw-in the Brandon Jennings trade from the Pistons years ago and he's played 97% of his NBA minutes as a Buck. The two key guys (Giannis and Middleton) are both going into their 8th years as Bucks. We've seen them develop and go from playing 25-30 minutes a game on a team that went 15-67 to where they are now. DDV has also only ever been a Buck. I'd rather watch these guys be the core of a team that win a title in Milwaukee once than watch a Klutch AAU team win multiple titles in whatever city they decide to end up in that year.

The most enjoyable non-Bucks team of the last 20 years for me was the pre-Durant Warriors. They won a title and almost repeated (with a 73 win regular season) with their top 4 players being guys they drafted (Curry, Klay, Draymond, and H. Barnes).  As good as Durant is, I think you lose a lot as a fan going from a team "that paid its dues" to a glorified AAU team which is what happened when Durant came on.

The Lakers this year were as AAUish as you could get. Of the top 5 guys for minutes played in the playoffs, none of them had played more than 3 years with the Lakers. They had 2 first-ballot HOFers and 2 in-the-conversation HOFers (Howard and Rondo) in their rotation. Those 4 guys have played 56 cumulative seasons in the NBA but only a total of 7 seasons with the Lakers among the 4 of them. When the Lakers won before, if you were a Laker fan I think you were more invested because at least one (and usually more than one) of the stars on every one of their title teams was a guy they drafted - Magic, Kobe, James Worthy, Jerry West.  Even Kareem, by the time he finally won a title with the Lakers, had been there 5 years.

The long-term success of the NBA depends on teams like the Bucks winning every once in a while. The success of the Spurs over the last two decades has been the exception and obscured the looming problem for the league in potentially having some glorified Washington Generals teams play Globetrotter squads most evenings.  The Spurs won 5 titles in large part because they tanked the year that Robinson was hurt and got Duncan and he was a guy that didn't want the big city lights (another example of a non-continental US (US Virgin Islands), non-AAU system player). The Mavs won their title with a star that was non-US, non-AAU. That's probably the key for a small-market franchise is to draft European guys who haven't been on the AAU circuit starting when they are about 12 years old.

@The Crusher posted:

Westbrook can't shoot.  He's a misfit toy in today's NBA.

He's a more selfish version of Sidney Moncrief who is not as good on the defensive end.

Actually, I've always thought that right now, Giannis is just a 7-foot version of Sidney. Sid was a superstar before his knees gave out, but Giannis is the same type of player.

That Bucks 2001 team was fun to watch.   I also enjoyed the Kings teams a couple of years after.  Will always have a special place for the 2004 Wolves team that got to the WCF.  The Thunder were exciting to watch until Durant bailed.  Warriors were exciting pre Durant.

The common denominator in all of those teams were their star players were drafted and/or homegrown.  They weren’t just a super team of hired guns assembled to win.  The rest is just fantasy football type bullshit.  

If you think about the Lakers, as much as I hate them they are a legacy franchise and set the bar for all other teams not named Boston.  But they took the easy path and whored themselves out to become relevant again.  I mean, I get why the Clippers did it and why Brooklyn is doing it.  They have no legacy so might as well try to buy one.  But that approach is short sided and cheapens your success IMO.