Make or Break Against the Snakes Series Thread

@Blair Kiel posted:

From what I hear, they’re making progress. No way a team is lame duck for 6 years before moving. What would the city do with a $1 billion empty stadium. Pony up. And for those who say taxpayers shouldn’t finance billionaires….dream on on how the world works. You think the money would be better spent on bike lanes?

It's really an investment in the community. It creates businesses and jobs. After watching the Braves leave Milw, I can assure everyone that are plenty of cities vying for a MLB team, now more than ever.

The fact that Vegas is bending over backwards to get a 50 win team, comprised mostly of players already playing AAA in Las Vegas, says it all. Ballys is going to implode the Tropicana and give the A's 30 corner acres on the strip. The other 3 corners have casinos with 11K rooms. That is a very valuable piece of real estate they are giving away just to get in the game.

@Tschmack posted:

As they did with Stearns last season, the team will likely scapegoat Counsell for their failure to perform in the playoffs.  

The problem is it’s a flawed roster with a flawed approach.

In their last 10 playoffs games they’ve scored 17 runs.  That’s it.  You think a Burnes doesn’t feel that kind of pressure every time he hits the mound?

I'm not buying this at all. Counsell really mishanded his roster once it was evident they would win the division and Devon Williams is no better example. He pitched 2 innings since Sept. 17. We saw the results, eventually burning him out in a game the Brewers were trailing in. No way he could have effectively closed game 2.

As far as the roster, Counsell doesn't have much of a bitch when he adds Wiemer and Winker to the post season roster. Mitchell for sure was a better option than Wiemer. I thought Tellez would get dropped for Mitchell but he certainly would have made more sense than Winker. Adding Miller made sense over a starting pitching that would be unavailable but he never got off the bench when he could have been used in a very critical situation running for Donaldson.

And there is a lot of luck in the draft. The Brewers consider Frelick a top prospect. But I compare him to Corbin Carroll. Same age, same size, same draft position, although Carroll was drafted 2 years earlier, but look at the ceilings of the two players.

@PackerRick posted:

People like to point at the Burnes arbitration ruling as a big negative and maybe just giving him the money would have appeased Burnes. But the truth is the arbitrator ruled in the Brewers favor and Burnes went right out and laid another playoff egg.

The Brewers were right in passing on Boxberger, he wouldn't have been as good as the relief pitchers the Brewers had. Maybe that was just luck but that's what happened. The guy is 35 years old, pitched 20 innings all season, and had an ERA of almost 5. Losing him clearly had no bearing on the Brewers season.

Boxberger was a valuable veteran who the Brewers could have retained for an extra 2 million (they paid him 750K to not pay him about 3 million). He was 35 years old and maybe their medical guys had some concerns. I guess they spent that money on Miley - which was a good move. But why was it either/or? Instead of Boxberger they ended up paying Chafin about the same amount for two months and to decline his club option next year (750K to decline the team option).

I really think Attanasio wants to sell the team, so he's jettisoned payroll and wants the stadium situation cleared up to maximize his offers. As others have pointed out, they really didn't try to maximize their competitive window the last two years. In 2008, they went out and got Sabathia. In the earlier Attanasio years, they went out and got Greinke. They got Marcum. As recently as the 2018/19 period, they traded for Moustakas. They signed Lorenzo Cain.

During the last two years when they had great pitching their deadline moves were limited to say the least. In 2022, they traded Hader for no immediate help (and almost nothing at all without the A's gifting them Contreras later to get Ruiz). They got Matt Bush. That's it. They added no offense.

This year, at least they made some moves. The problem was that during the offseason they did nothing to improve the team with veteran position player help. In fact, they traded two guys who had better 2022 seasons than anyone other than Yelich and Contreras had this year - (Wong -770 OPS and Renfroe - 808 OPS) for Jesse Winker and Peguero. Peguero was good, but they traded away about 45 home runs and replaced them by promoting spray hitting guys in the early 20s from the minors.

Why did they trade Wong and Renfroe? Renfroe was decent this year and Wong was terrible, but the Brewers didn't know that when the trades happened. They traded Wong and Renfroe and got Winker and Peguero and saved about 12 million dollars doing so.

Everything they did the last 2 years was to shave payroll. Maybe it was to keep the same payroll to retain Burnes, Woodruff, and Adames, but cumulatively those guys made about 28 million this year. If you are going to keep them you need spend some more money to try to win with them. I think the response to the Hader trade forced them to keep those guys rather than trade them this year.

Canha and Santana were decent pickups for the price, but those are the types of guys you get to pinch hit or be supplementary players in the playoffs. They ended up hitting 3rd and 4th in their lineup in playoff games. Donaldson hit 160 this year and he was an everyday player for them down the stretch.

I think Stearns and Counsell had some insight into what was coming and wanted out. The Hader trade was the real indication that Attanasio had one foot out the door. The Renfroe trade really sealed it.

Finally, are there any two franchises that operate differently in the same market as the Bucks and Brewers? The Bucks may be a G league team when the next decade starts, but they try to win now when they have a generational talent. The Brewers had the best pitching staff in franchise history from 2020-23 and decided to rely on prospects to put them over the top. It's like the Bucks would have been had they decided to rely on DJ Wilson, Sterling Brown, Beauchamp, and Divencenzo instead of going out and getting Lopez and Holiday.

@PackerRick posted:

I'm not buying this at all. Counsell really mishanded his roster once it was evident they would win the division and Devon Williams is no better example. He pitched 2 innings since Sept. 17. We saw the results, eventually burning him out in a game the Brewers were trailing in. No way he could have effectively closed game 2.

As far as the roster, Counsell doesn't have much of a bitch when he adds Wiemer and Winker to the post season roster. Mitchell for sure was a better option than Wiemer. I thought Tellez would get dropped for Mitchell but he certainly would have made more sense than Winker. Adding Miller made sense over a starting pitching that would be unavailable but he never got off the bench when he could have been used in a very critical situation running for Donaldson.

And there is a lot of luck in the draft. The Brewers consider Frelick a top prospect. But I compare him to Corbin Carroll. Same age, same size, same draft position, although Carroll was drafted 2 years earlier, but look at the ceilings of the two players.

Mitchell wasn't medically cleared to slide head first, which limited his utility as a runner. Winker sucked, but so did Tellez this year.

The Brewers young players are all the same type of player. Scrappy, good defensive players, decent speed, limited to modest power. Frelick, Turang, Mitchell, Taylor, Monasterio, Perkins, Miller. Hiura was the only power hitter they developed into a major leaguer in the last 5-6 years.

But why play Mitchell down the stretch if they had no intention of him being on the playoff roster? He wasn't cleared medically at that time either. Why not give Tellez as many ABs in those meaningless games and see if he can get going instead of activating Winker?

I'll agree the Brewers haven't developed any power hitters they still won 92 games.

The bigger problem is that Counsell manages differently than he did to win 92 games. That's part of the reason he has 1 playoff win in the last 9 playoff games. How does he justify putting Uribe into that situation last night? It was way too big for him. Besides having control issue he's pitched 8 innings in AA and 15 innings in AAA in his career. Megill, Wilson, Milner?

And why make Donaldson a full time player? I get taking a flyer on a guy like that but it was evident he was washed up and should have been used in a rotation. He hit into 6 DPs in 19 games, we  saw what a baserunning liability he is, and we're lucky he tagged the guy out last night in a rundown when he actually whiffed on the tag.

The Bucks do what they do to keep the franchise from going FA. They know if he walks they'll never get a player like that again and be relevant. A MLB team isn't built like that. LeBron runs his team. When the Braves can't agree with Freeman they let him walk and trade for Olson. It's really comparing apples to oranges. If the Bucks lose Giannis they collapse. If the Brewers lose Burnes they won't collapse.

When critiquing the Hader trade does anybody really think that was initiated by Attanasio? I sure don't. Why would he prefer a midseason trade over waiting until the end of the year? If his fingerprints were on that he would have done the same thing with Burnes despite the fallout of the Hader trade. If he was that hardcore of a businessman that would not deter him from doing it again. I think the Hader trade was Stearns talking Attanasio into it and created a lot of friction between the two and a big reason why Stearns, out of nowhere, stepped down. I don't think Attanasio knows dick about player personnel and just trusted Stearns. He would never understand when a player was at peak value and initiate a trade.

The Brewers worked Boxberger like a rented mule for 2 years and figured he was spent. They were right. Miley had nothing to do with letting Boxberger go as they were trying to fill out their starting rotation on the cheap. Again, they were right. Chafin was just an opportunity for a playoff team to add a 2nd left hand pitcher to the pen. They were wrong on him.

The Brewers had no intention of paying Josh Hader the 12-15M in arbitration he would have been due in 2023.  That’s the reason he was dealt, pure and simple.  You don’t think Mark A made that clear to Stearns?  

Stearns didn’t cheap out on Boxberger.  Nor did he get his hands dirty with Corbin Burnes fighting his arbitration.  

Again, you don’t think Attanasio wasn’t involved on some level?  

This is an owner that post Yelich deal has done literally everything possible to limit spending.  It’s his team he can’t do whatever he wants.  But the writing is on the wall and has been on the wall for several years now.  He isn’t all in.

I decided a year ago I wasn’t going to spend another dime at Miller Park until the organization demonstrated to me as a fan they were committed to winning.   Well they aren’t.  And I’ll gladly spend my money going to Bucks games every once in a while instead.  

The Brewers fans deserve better.  And before anyone gets on my case I’ve listened and followed through the lean years as well.  

Just sell the team already Mark A!

@Tschmack posted:

I decided a year ago I wasn’t going to spend another dime at Miller Park until the organization demonstrated to me as a fan they were committed to winning.   Well they aren’t.  And I’ll gladly spend my money going to Bucks games every once in a while instead.  

This is the sign of the best fan

@MichiganPacker posted:

This year, at least they made some moves. The problem was that during the offseason they did nothing to improve the team with veteran position player help. In fact, they traded two guys who had better 2022 seasons than anyone other than Yelich and Contreras had this year - (Wong -770 OPS and Renfroe - 808 OPS) for Jesse Winker and Peguero. Peguero was good, but they traded away about 45 home runs and replaced them by promoting spray hitting guys in the early 20s from the minors.

Do we really want them to start relying on home runs again?

@Tschmack posted:

The Brewers had no intention of paying Josh Hader the 12-15M in arbitration he would have been due in 2023.  That’s the reason he was dealt, pure and simple.  You don’t think Mark A made that clear to Stearns?  

Maybe Attanasio wasn't willing to pay Hader what he got in arbitration but there were plenty of teams that would. That's why it made no sense for Attanasio to press for a midseason trade as opposed to at the end of the season when all teams knew Hader was on the trading block. Like I said before, I don't think Attanasio knows enough about baseball to even attempt those decision and he put everything in Stearns' hands. Who would be more upset about the Brewers collapse, the owner or a GM with one foot out the door who had been denied permission to talk to the Mets?

How can anybody say the Brewers cheaped out on Boxberger? He wouldn't have even made the team this year. That's why they let him walk.

@"We"-Ka-Bong posted:

This is the sign of the best fan

Very true. The team won 92 games and they're not committed to winning?

@"We"-Ka-Bong posted:

Do we really want them to start relying on home runs again?

I don't want them to be only reliant on home runs, but it's hard to score when your offense needs to string 3 singles together to score a run against the type of pitching you see in the playoffs.

When you have arguably the best pitching staff in baseball over a 3 year span- top to bottom - and you build the rest of your roster with unproven youngsters and guys off the scrap heap then yeah, you aren’t serious or committed to winning.

@MichiganPacker posted:

I don't want them to be only reliant on home runs, but it's hard to score when your offense needs to string 3 singles together to score a run against the type of pitching you see in the playoffs.

Worse yet is when they string together 3 single and just load the bases. That happened in each playoff game. The Brewers just need to add consistent power at the corner infield positions.

i’ve been a brewer fan since 1979.  1982 team broke my heart.  molitor leaving for toronto left me unable to watch baseball for several years. bottom line is, the brewers are a snake bit franchise.  i enjoyed watching them win the division this year but i knew they weren’t going anywhere in the postseason.  i hope they stay in milwaukee and remain competitive but i have no expectation they will ever win a championship

It's amazing how some people can spend other people's money.   Maybe if you had   Attanasio's money you would act more like him.  It's always easy to play fantasy sports, but a lot tougher to actually be an owner.

As to next season I'm not too worried.  The rooks will have another spring training under their belt and hopefully some instruction in winter ball in Arizona. If Burnes is traded so be it.  There will be other pitcher available or be promoted from AAA.  Maybe Megill can become a starter.  Remember, Burnes was a bullpen guy early in his Brewer career.

.

Have an outfield rotation of Taylor, Wiemer, Frelick and Mitchell.and maybe Perkins.  Make Yelich fulltime DH.

The infield is more of a problem. Santana had a $6, 750,000 contract this year.  He will be an UFA. Tellez was $4,950,000 and is arby eligible.   I'll take Santana in a heartbeat with even a little more added on to keep him rather that giving Tellez arby money.  Platoon Turang and Monasterio at second.  Monasterio had a .779 OPS vs. lefties while Turang had a .608 OPS vs. righties. Not great but his defense makes up for some of that. . SS is a problem. Adames got $8,750,000 this season and will have his last arby year this upcoming season.  Cam Devanney played mostly short at Nashville.  He had a .271 BA, 11 homers and a  .823 OPS.  But he committed 12 errors tho.  Not sure if he is ready, he is 26 years old.  At 3rd, Tyler Black maybe on the Brewer roster next year.  He hit .310 in 39 games at in Nashville, had 4 homers and  .942 OPS at AAA  and only 2 errors. He had a .924 OPS at Biloxi.  The kid can hit.  Keep Owen Miller and use him as a rotation guy.

Turang is actually a SS so even finding a 2B might work if Adames is moved but Adames almost has to remain because of his power. The Brewers are short on consistent power and I don't see it with their outfielders. They need to make a haul for Burnes, a couple major league ready players and a couple prospects.

It’s tough to be an owner.  Said no one ever on x4 except for ammo!

I just want to know when Mark A is going to buy his next expensive piece of memorabilia.  Doesn’t seem have a problem there.

One other thing- Paul Molitor was kicked to the curb because of Bud Selig’s cheap ass.  He “chose to leave” only because Milwaukee didn’t want to keep him.  Sound familiar?  

And enough of the snake bit narrative already.  Baseball can be a weird game.  Woody getting hurt sucks but it’s not like Khris Middleton in the playoffs 2 years ago or Aaron Rodgers this year.  Brandon Woodruff wasn’t the reason they left guys on base.  

I watch the games hoping for the best..not to get pissed at the owner. They’ve made the post-season more than I ever imagined they would in the 90’s and early 2000’s. Anastasio does not strike me as a meddling guy…but he also doesn’t strike me as a bad businessman. He’s at the games with his wife and otherwise shuts up. We’re a tiny market…I accept that and simply hope they’re in contention. I guess I have low expectations because I never sat first chair. 😜

@Tschmack posted:

It’s tough to be an owner.  Said no one ever on x4 except for ammo!

FUCK OFF ASSHOLE!!!  Talk is cheap and you are the cheapest of the cheap.  If your ways are so goddamn perfect then why are you not an owner?   Put your money where your mouth is. 

This article is about a year old but explains a few things. https://brewerfanatic.com/news...onomic-reality-r659/

Hiura filed for free agency and is no longer a member of the Brewers.

I just learned that when he was DFAed last spring he could not refuse assignment to Nashville because it was the first time he was DFAed.

Lol ammo.  Don’t stroke out on us because we’ll have no one else around to make us feel sorry for professional sports teams owners.  

I think perhaps what Kiel said is right.  Temper our expectations.  Meaning if the ceiling is just making the playoffs that’s how I should look at this team.  It’s just sad and disappointing because with the staff they had assembled a couple of modest additions or acquisitions to the offense may have put them over the top.  

With them likely to move on with Burnes and Woody most likely that legit contending window has closed.  Hope they strike gold with a Churio and who knows.   Burnes could get some a decent return but not as certain or as much with Woodruff.  

@Tschmack posted:

Lol ammo.  Don’t stroke out on us  

Don't worry, I won't stroke out. I'd miss all the bullshit you post.  It makes for cheap comedy.

How ironic that a guy who says he won't spend a dime at Miller Park to watch the Brewers complains about the owner not spending any money.      Jesus fucking kerist on a cracker!!!!

Money is not the simple solution anyway. Mets, Padres, Yankees, are the top 3 payrolls.

You must have shitmck on ignore. That is all he preaches.

@ammo posted:

Don't worry, I won't stroke out. I'd miss all the bullshit you post.  It makes for cheap comedy.

How ironic that a guy who says he won't spend a dime at Miller Park to watch the Brewers complains about the owner not spending any money.      Jesus fucking kerist on a cracker!!!!

He may be going to and spending big bucks at AM FAM tho

@ammo posted:

You must have shitmck on ignore. That is all he preaches.

I don't have him on ignore, and see what he says. I'm not a fan of Attanasio either. But I understand the reason he was able to buy the team is because he's a successful businessman and he's not going to break character to win a WS. All one has to do is see what Wayne Huizenga did with the Marlins after they won a WS but lost money to see how these guys operate. Attanasio was never a Brewer fan, just a guy trying to make a profit and have as much success on the field as he can while doing that. There are only a few George Steinbrenners that check box of being a "win at all costs" owner/fan.

@Pikes Peak posted:

He may be going to and spending big bucks at AM FAM tho

He said Miller Park so I did too.   

D-Backs are looking good in Game 1 vs. the Dodgers. Kershaw gave up 6 runs and got 1 out.