Maybe the offense does need a fresh approach.

I'm not convinced that Capers is maximizing the available talent and a fresh approach on that side of the ball is warranted as well. Look at the team from the Seattle choke forward and it's not a pretty picture that screams for the need for change.

In the last 9 home games the Packers are 4-5.  What the hell happened to home field advantage that Holgrem built?

michiganjoe posted:

I'm not convinced that Capers is maximizing the available talent and a fresh approach on that side of the ball is warranted as well. Look at the team from the Seattle choke forward and it's not a pretty picture that screams for the need for change.

Players failing to execute when they're in position is the theme. IMO that's more to do with a lack of talent than coaching, though also partially on the latter. They're trotting out the deep bench in the defensive backfield and when their supposed emerging stars miss plays it destroys them. 

The offence is stale, the defence is not well coached. The dumpster fire called the "Green Bay Packers" 2016, is a combination of a HC who is stubborn and advises TT to draft players who can be plugged unto his system. The HCs system is predictable, every team in the NFL knows the plays as well as when and how they will be called and run. The DC runs a system that is extremely complicated and takes rooks a season or more to learn.

In todays NFL (parity driven) ,the object is to run the team like it is a college  team by bringing rooks in, training them up, building team chemistry, then at the time when they become free agents try to keep a few, if the cap allows. MM earlier success has put the team in position to draft where there is not too much talent left and TT has done a very good job drafting. However, MM will not innovate!! He refuses to change, he is, a "one" trick pony in terms of offensive innovation. The players see this and building team chemistry is almost impossible when they see that week after week MM is driving the team into a brick wall with his stale O.

In reply to those who say "but, who will replace MM?". Hey, the same question was asked when they replaced Mike Sherman!! I trust TT to find a fine replacement.

I think what we are having right now is a perfect storm of problems.

On defense you can't blitz as much because they don't have the talent at DB to cover one on one.  Not making excuses for injuries but when you are missing your top 3 DBs you are going to have problems in the secondary.  But, I do think that perhaps that it may be time for a change at DC teams just seem to shred his schemes anymore.

On offense you NO running game.  None, zip, zilch, nada, nil.  If you cannot be balanced on offense it makes it easy for the D.  And there is no threat from the TE position to open up the middle of the field either.  Aaron is still great but no QB is going to succeed without some sort of balance on offense.  Like the defense I think that perhaps other teams may be figuring out the Packers offensive schemes.  Time to change the OC perhaps?  I am not talking about the play caller in MM I am talking about the OC.

Isn't Rollins back? And we've been without Shields since the first game of the season!! When Dumbarious was in there he didn't look all that much better than Gunter does now. Right now the injuries in the defensive backfield has become scapegoating. Thompson let Casey Hayward walk and decided to keep Julius Peppers and Nick Perry, who seems to have gone back to the Nick Perry we've all known for the last four years. So if you wanna see where the problem is start at the top because as the old saying goes, the fish rottts from head down

hate watching games like that - the ol' "aw shucks offense".  and then I hear AR talking on the radio this morning about "not taking advantage of opportunities".  well, here, I'll give you and MM the biggest opportunity that remained largely untapped:  THEY WERE DARING YOU TO RUN THE BALL!!!!!!!!!   so you outsmarted them and didn't - brilliant.

Watching Packer recievers run isolation stick routes yesterday against mediocre Colts corners it struck me how easy GB is making it for teams to cover them. When Mike said the receivers have to beat man coverage at the half you knew nothing was changing. 

I have two questions.

Why would you continue to ask recievers to run very rudimentary isolation stick routes that are fairly easy for marginal corners to cover? 

What has anyone seen over the last 18 games to think 2017 will be any different? 

If Mike keeps trying to force this passing game he's going to be somewhere else in 2017. I'm frustrated with the guy. I don't want to see him fired but at some point he has to know his scheme is really easy to neutralize. That or he needs to identify a true OC then get his hands completely off the offense. 

And Capers sucks. 

It has been a perfect storm of problems since the Packers lost to Seattle almost two years and then after the debacle in Denver last season, it has been a hurricane.

There's just something lost on the field between WR and Rodgers.  Maybe Jordy is done but it sure seems like it has as much to do with communication as it does with Jordy's wheels.  Cobb, unfortunately, only seems to be effective with a guy like pre-injury Jordy spreading out the defenses and as nice a couple of games as Ankles has had he sure the **** isn't in that territory.  Janis is Janis, DikPlod is DikPlod, Cook is glass and always has been.  Monty seems to be completely expendable for some reason even though he tears off some great plays then he simply is dismissed from the field.  

Super awesome WR corp isn't super awesome.  It's pretty ****ing average.  Add in whatever the **** Rodgers is dealing with = instant **** show.  

The multiple WR sets worked great when Nelson and Cobb were at the top of their games and were physical/speed/quickness mismatches against the vast majority of players they lined up against.  That really was the Packers offense the last couple successful seasons...when a play needed to be made put an extra WR or two on the field, let Rodgers identify the biggest mismatch prior to the snap and make an easy throw to that guy.  But Rodgers doesn't have one player like that now.  It also doesn't help that Rodgers' accuracy has dropped off considerably and his decision-making has slipped quite a bit as well.

But the fact that Nelson just can't run like he used to, Cobb isn't nearly as quick as he was two years ago, Adams doesn't have great speed so every throw to him downfield will be contested unless there is a blown coverage (same story with Montgomery), throw up a ball to Janis and it might be a catch or he might try to catch it with his facemask which will mean it's incomplete....the Packers just don't have the players to run what they did in 2014 and be successful.

It's pretty surprising that the Packers just keep going out there and doing the same thing over and over with mediocre results.  It's also very disappointing that the team has had some success with using some different personnel packages but always revert back to the same predictable personnel groupings and try to do exactly what the opposition has expected and prepared for the preceding week.  Demovsky had a great article after the Giants game about how the Packer's offense were so successful at the beginning of the Giant's game when they mixed up personnel to the tune of a 16 play touchdown drive to open the game but from that point on it was back to 3+ receiver sets and not so much offense.

And while I would agree that the running back situation is terrible, it is clearly an area that Thompson botched this off-season (just how bad did James Starks look at the end of last season when he couldn't even hold onto the ball?!).  That being said on Sunday - Montgomery = 7 carries for 53 yards, Jackson = 4 carries for 16 yards, Ripkowski = 2 carries for 4 yards.  When a back got the ball it was an average 5.6 yard gain.  Granted that number is inflated because of a couple real nice gains by Montgomery, but Jackson averaged 4 yards per carry and there is nothing wrong with that average in today's NFL.  And despite that relative success running the ball, the Packers only did it 13 times in 65 plays.  20% of the time isn't nearly enough when averaging 5.6 yards per carry.  But again it goes back to McCarthy really having no interest in running the ball.  He can give it all the lip-service he wants in press conferences but when the whistle blows it's a completely different story.

As far as the coaches hot seat, Edgar Bennett's should be getting plenty warm by now.  Looks like when McCarthy cleared house last year he may have gotten the wrong guys (surprise!!!)...glad to see the tight end production through the roof now with Fontenot gone.

Tdog posted:

hate watching games like that - the ol' "aw shucks offense".  and then I hear AR talking on the radio this morning about "not taking advantage of opportunities".  well, here, I'll give you and MM the biggest opportunity that remained largely untapped:  THEY WERE DARING YOU TO RUN THE BALL!!!!!!!!!   so you outsmarted them and didn't - brilliant.

 

I'm sure they'll look like a million bucks again in the near future sometime but I'm standing by this:  Ted Thompson's true mettle as a GM will be tested this offseason because it is time to move on and get rid of MM.  the whole program has grown stale, and adjustments don't get made.  I want a HC who isn't afraid to run the ball and/or isn't so in love with what he thinks is the world's best passing game that he can't think to run the ball.

 

MM has been figured out by the rest of the league but he still thinks everything should work.  of course, if AR had completed the long passes to Jordy and Davante, and Janis hadn't tried to catch his with his face, it could have looked a lot different.  but I'm tired of it, just tired.

 

I agree that this offseason we are going to find out what TT is made of and how he reacts to things and what moves he will make.  My gut feeling (based upon nothing but a hunch) is that the first thing that will happen is a revamping of the coaching staff with a new OC and DC.  And MM will be on the red hot seat for one more year.  If the team plays like this next year he is done.   

I completely and totally agree with you about running the ball!!!  I am not asking for Woody Hayes style of offense but I do think that in the NFL you have at least have a threat to run the ball.  What does that do?  it opens everything up and I think it even takes the pressure off the D.  Play action will be back and I bet we would be surprised how quickly the receivers get open when the opposing D doesn't have the luxury of being able to sit back and cover without worrying about the run. 

And the D will benefit at well.  The other team will be playing catch up with less time on the clock and they will be less balanced. 

Problem with that is MM is the offense.  We saw that last season when he turned it over to Washout and we ended up with ****.  

Get a new DC?  What's the difference at this point?  If you have a completely ineffectual offense who sports some of the biggest names in the NFL a new defense isn't going to save the team.  You have to have some kind of offense.  

It isn't that the talent is all horrible or the coaching is completely horrible, it's the mindset more than anything.  I have no doubt with a little retooling to the talent on the field they are back in it.  Problem is MM isn't going to be the guy to do it.  You can see TT tried to add a couple different elements of speed and physicality to the offense and it's simply gone nowhere.   Hell, they have ILBs now to boot!  

Beat the Titans. 

Very Jeckyl / Hyde team for the past 20 games.

ChilliJon posted:

Watching Packer recievers run isolation stick routes yesterday against mediocre Colts corners it struck me how easy GB is making it for teams to cover them. When Mike said the receivers have to beat man coverage at the half you knew nothing was changing. 

I have two questions.

Why would you continue to ask recievers to run very rudimentary isolation stick routes that are fairly easy for marginal corners to cover? 

What has anyone seen over the last 18 games to think 2017 will be any different? 

If Mike keeps trying to force this passing game he's going to be somewhere else in 2017. I'm frustrated with the guy. I don't want to see him fired but at some point he has to know his scheme is really easy to neutralize. That or he needs to identify a true OC then get his hands completely off the offense. 

And Capers sucks. 

This.

It is just time for a change.

Spot on Packerjoe.  

An NFL-caliber Tight End would also do wonders for this offense.

Hungry5 posted:

Beat the Titans. 

Very Jeckyl / Hyde team for the past 20 games.

Never thought I would say this but that might be easier said than done.  Which team shows up?  Hoping for a really mad team to show up and play but not sure that will happen.

Thought this part of Packer Joe's comments was interesting:

"But the fact that Nelson just can't run like he used to, Cobb isn't nearly as quick as he was two years ago, Adams doesn't have great speed so every throw to him downfield will be contested unless there is a blown coverage (same story with Montgomery), throw up a ball to Janis and it might be a catch or he might try to catch it with his facemask which will mean it's incomplete....the Packers just don't have the players to run what they did in 2014 and be successful."

I was concerned that Jordy might either take more than a year to get back to where he was, or that he might permanently lose a step or two, but what is up with Cobb?  Isn't he only 25 or 26 years old...he should still be improving physically instead of declining.  Maybe MM's insistence on using him in the backfield is taking a toll on his small frame.  

I've always been behind MM, but I think it's time that TT jettisons him and the rest of the coaching staff. MM needs new ideas, and Capers needs to get guys in the right spots. It seems that every other team has GB figured out on both sides of the ball. I do think they have another good game or two in them, but it's a tease. The only teams we beat are those with far less talent. And our home-field advantage just... isn't.

Overall, this downhill slide has been a couple years in the making. I have to think the relationship between AR and MM has soured beyond repair. It's time to put an end to it before the powder keg at 1265 blows.

I think the Packers need to stick to the basic WCO offensive scheme, with extremely rare exception.  Have those slants and other basic routes, have Rodgers drop back and do his progressions.  No more ad-libbing save pass pressure that forces it.

Rodgers goes thru the progressions and throws the ball, including out of bounds if no one is open.  Wasn't that the Falcon scheme as well as the opening drive of the prior game?

STICK TO IT!!!

Bottom line is this: 

if you are a defensive coordinator in the NFL facing McCarthy and his offense are you losing sleep? I cant imagine one of them doing so. Not one. 

They are so predictable. So stale. And you have a HC who refuses to acknowledge any of it. 

The Packers are the team that opponents now look at and chalk it up as a win.  

No NFL team thinks that way. Well, except maybe McCarthy yesterday by thinking he could "do what we do" even though it wasn't working and they'd get the win.

Well they sure as hell are not chalking it up as a loss.

BrainDed posted:

In the last 9 home games the Packers are 4-5.  What the hell happened to home field advantage that Holgrem built?

The home field advantage is gone because the fans have sold it. The number of opposing fans in the stadium on gameday is pathetic.

This article has good point:

Elsewhere in the NFL, things are getting more complex. The Patriots’ offense changes weekly, implementing new ideas and new plays to best take apart the opponents’ defenses. The Saints have all sorts of wild looks for Drew Brees to dial up. Other teams would kill for the ability to run more complex offenses, if they only had a quarterback like Rodgers.

No, at the Packers, they want to dumb things down... While every other team in the NFL runs crossing routes and pick routes to give their receivers a chance to get open, the Packers run ISO routes and hope their guys will beat their defenders.

Rodgers hasn’t been perfect this season...But a good coaching staff can find a way to win with that.

---

My friend who is not Packers fan was shocked how Indy "took it to the Packers", saying it "looked like they got out coached."  

BINGO

In the span of one calendar year, Green Bay has now lost three home games when they were favored by seven or more points. 

Along with everything else being said, not having a running game is still a huge problem. We are still one dimensional like all of last year. Throw in no reliable TE and it is almost insurmountable. There are no safe staple plays to build momentum and wear down defenses.

AR tried the whole first quarter to make Rogers his go-to guy and it fell on its face. And he has no one to hand it to and nowhere to dump it off.  So it is all on AR and it is last year all over again. 

phaedrus posted:

I think the Packers need to stick to the basic WCO offensive scheme, with extremely rare exception.  Have those slants and other basic routes, have Rodgers drop back and do his progressions.  No more ad-libbing save pass pressure that forces it.

Rodgers goes thru the progressions and throws the ball, including out of bounds if no one is open.  Wasn't that the Falcon scheme as well as the opening drive of the prior game?

STICK TO IT!!

You have a great point and I completely agree with it.  If GB truly runs the WCO is doesn't look like it much anymore.  I think what has been best for this team over the years is use the slant pass because the receivers can't get separation.  Some times I think coaches tend to get too cute with their game plans and they forget the system that got them there. I don't think MM has forgotten how to coach I think he has fallen in to that trap. 

I know I am beating a dead horse here but offensively if you cannot run the ball,  abandon it too quickly, have a RB who can catch a pass out of the back field, or have TE's so slow I can out run them, the DC's in the NFL will be able to have more time with their families during the week when they are preparing for the Packers.  Their jobs are easy if they have to only worry about covering receivers running basic routes.

I would get Cobb and Ty out the backfield. Permanently. I would let Jackson and Bell get 100% of the caries. I'd pretty much put Dick Rodgers on the shelf until he shows anyone he's willing to put in the effort to learn how to block. Give snaps to Perillo until Cook is back. I'd try to keep Adams, Ty, Jordy, and Cobb on the field together as much as possible single back and run twist routes to get Cobb and Ty free in the middle. 

Agreed CJ. I'd go with Rip in the backfield with Adams, Ty, Jordy, and Cobb as the receivers. He can start the play with any of those 4 WRs in the backfield. And with Cobb and Monty there is a threat to run.

On the 4th qtr 3rd and 6 deep miss to Jordy, both Rip and Adams were open for the 1st.

GreenBayLA posted:

This article has good point:

Elsewhere in the NFL, things are getting more complex. The Patriots’ offense changes weekly, implementing new ideas and new plays to best take apart the opponents’ defenses. The Saints have all sorts of wild looks for Drew Brees to dial up. Other teams would kill for the ability to run more complex offenses, if they only had a quarterback like Rodgers.

No, at the Packers, they want to dumb things down... While every other team in the NFL runs crossing routes and pick routes to give their receivers a chance to get open, the Packers run ISO routes and hope their guys will beat their defenders.

Rodgers hasn’t been perfect this season...But a good coaching staff can find a way to win with that.

---

My friend who is not Packers fan was shocked how Indy "took it to the Packers", saying it "looked like they got out coached."  

BINGO

Agree, I think that listening to the announcers (not local ones) have often said the same about being outcoached.

Rip was WIDE open. On the miss to Geronimo in the end zone in the 3rd, Davis ran a great cross/break back outside from the outside of trips right. Wide open. So was Adams on the wheel down the boundary. 

To me it looks like AR isn't completely sure who the primary is. I'm guessing he's starting with what he sees as the biggest mismatch and checks from there. But I'm not even sure there is a primary. Lots of guys are coming clean eventually but Rodgers has to come off a read and onto that guy at the moment they create space. Not exactly sustainable. 

When things are clicking AR looks the safety to the middle of the field and hits Davis in the flat on his in/out route. 

I caught Rodgers comments about him being a little caught off guard over Cobb's availability yesterday. AR said he didn't really understand what Cobb's status was after he was activated. You read that and you wonder where the communication really is between Mike, Aaron. Edgar? 

Pistol GB:

There are no safe staple plays to build momentum and wear down defenses.

What about Montgomery frequently running a short cross route?  Admittedly, Dallas was playing prevent, but that is a nice threat and ought to open something up somewhere, I would hope.

Rodgers did resort to it a ton against the Cowboys, late in the game.

CJ, don't think it's about primary, still think it's communication between QB and WR. He throws a go while Jordy stops for a back shoulder. 2 vets with a lot of time together, not on the same page, hell that's different books. 

Rodgers used to throw guys open, now he doesn't throw to open guys.

Rodgers used to not "shy away from the easy throw", now he wants the home run too often.

I hope the folks at 1265 are working on the problem with as much vigor as the guys here.

Hungry5 posted:

CJ, don't think it's about primary, still think it's communication between QB and WR. He throws a go while Jordy stops for a back shoulder. 2 vets with a lot of time together, not on the same page, hell that's different books. 

Question is how many different books is everyone reading?