Rodgers not Elite?

I think there are two really frustrating things at play with the offense right now:

1) Rodgers is too tight with Jimmy Graham and I think he's working too hard to force him the ball. I think MLF is struggling to toe the line of benching a struggling veteran whose salary demands he produce even though it's brutally obvious that Bob Tonyan needs to be the #1. They both believe too heavily in the idea and reputation of Jimmy Graham and not what's in front of their faces IMO. I have no evidence to back that up, it's just a feeling. 

2) Rodgers is determined to force the ball to Adams and Jones, which is great because they're elite skill players, but he's trying to the detriment of the offense. He refuses to spread it around and while MLF may keep shouldering the blame, I think Rodgers is getting too narrow minded per play. Lazard IS getting open, Lewis is getting open, Kumerow is mostly getting open. 

As with all things it's hard to criticize Rodgers because his stats overall are good and the team is 10-3. When you judge the process and not just the results though, it's a frustrating picture. Rodgers has to step up and play disciplined/smart football to win in the playoffs. 

There is no way that JG will be on this team next year.   Not at a contract value of almost 12MM.  If they cut him they’d eat a little over 3M but save almost 8MM.  

Linsley is another one to watch as they’d save almost 9MM letting him go after this season. 

100% agree with that assessment by GD.    

I'll add that the Rodgers has been allowed to bring some of his old ways into the new system as well and in my opinion those have hurt the team more than helped.    Example, we spend too much energy trying to get the free play instead of just focusing on execution.   

We got linemen in their stance for 15 seconds while Rodgers works the count and the clock down to 0.  They just are not going to come off the ball as well in that scenario and it hurts the run game.    It also hurts pass protection as the D is more than aware of this game and gets a good jump on the snap.    Granted, on the rare occasion they don't run the clock to 0, we now have the edge as the D is expecting that. 

I'm off the opinion that when it comes to these tactics, the juice isn't worth the squeeze anymore.   If it comes naturally, great, but lets stop trying to force it and buy into the offense. 

Piece in JSO this morning about how the team needs to pull Graham in favor of Tonyan. Gutey just compounded his mistake by keeping him around for a second year.

If I recall correctly, the dead money on Graham would have been extremely high.  That doesn't justify his playing time over Tonyan at this point in the season, but I'm not looking at the choice to keep him on the roster as a mistake. 

If we don't give MORE SNAPS to those who are producing, we're nothing better than MM's "loyalty" to people like Dom and the various horrible ST coaches we've had.

Cap hit on Graham would have been $7.3 million. That's a price the team should have been willing to pay.

BTW, the team took an $11 million hit on Nick Perry's contract. Too much to pay?

BrainDed posted:

If I recall correctly, the dead money on Graham would have been extremely high.  That doesn't justify his playing time over Tonyan at this point in the season, but I'm not looking at the choice to keep him on the roster as a mistake. 

If GB releases Graham after this season, it's a cap savings of 8mil. He's due to be paid 11.6 mil in 2020. No way that's happening. The Packers also shed 11 mil in dead money from Nick Perry (good grief that was a bad signing). Lane Tyler gives them another 4.5 million, 

They will have to make decisions on Bryan Bulaga and Mason Crosby but if they move on from either (I don't see that happening), that's more cap dollars saved as well.  

Bulaga absolute warrior. Have to re-sign him. 

Rodgers -- he knows he needs to play better if the Pack are going to make a deep run. He already said it.

Keep Crosby and Bulaga at reasonable money and time.  I'm thinking the Pack may get a bit of a home town discount from them.  At least I hope so. 

I could also see JG take a restructured pay cut based on reduced playing time. That would also save some cap dollars.

I don't even want him back at Vet minimum. He's useless.

Rodgers' play has been a bit frustrating early, but it's nice to be in a position where we don't need him to win every game. We can win games with Jones & Co. running the ball. We can win games by having a defense that pressures the QB and forces turnovers. 

If Rodgers & Co. can get the passing attack going - and it doesn't have to be elite; it just has to be efficient and effective - this team can definitely make a run. And if Rodgers gets hot heading into the playoffs, we can absolutely win the whole damn thing.

Ask yourself this: do you honestly see Rodgers being the reason we lose in the playoffs? I don't. In his entire career, I can probably count on one hand the games when he was the primary reason we lost. I certainly don't see it happening now, when he's got the most complete team around him that he's had in years.

I don't think Rodgers getting hot alone could carry this team to the SB.  D would have to do the same with the top offenses we would face along the way.  That would be everyone in the playoffs not including the NFCE.  And if PHI wins the E, they'd be a problem for this D also.

packerboi posted:

I think after 14 weeks of football, 2 things are pretty apparent:

1.) This team has no #2 WR. 

 

       

 

Gotta disagree with this packerboi.  I think Lazard is a legit #2 if they would just let him play the same number of snaps Adams plays. 

BrainDed posted:

100% agree with that assessment by GD.    

We got linemen in their stance for 15 seconds while Rodgers works the count and the clock down to 0.  They just are not going to come off the ball as well in that scenario and it hurts the run game.    It also hurts pass protection as the D is more than aware of this game and gets a good jump on the snap.    Granted, on the rare occasion they don't run the clock to 0, we now have the edge as the D is expecting that. 

This. I watched the Rams this weekend. They were snapping the ball quickly with 15 seconds left on the play clock. QB was also under center a lot.  They forced the defense to match up to them instead of trying to figure out what the defense was doing to counter them.   LaFleur learned under McVeigh as well as Shanahan.   I’m hoping to see more of this - at least next year if not before. 

McVay saved that coaching job for that Seattle game. Seattle wasn't ready for it. Seattle did not have cameras filming the Rams practices. 

If Occam's Razor holds true (not always), that being the hypothesis with the least number of assumptions is the likeliest, the problem is production at WR and TE aside from Adams.

My intuition says it is ~80% the above and ~20% Rodgers, the latter due to him trying to deal with the main issue.

We need better receivers - at WR and TE.

but what about the other receivers?  

Do we need better lineman- at guard, center and tackle?  

Could we upgrade our defensive backs- at safety and corner?  

Running up those social media points with multiple posts?

Sad.

I thought the kickers played well - Crosby and Scott

Blair Kiel posted:

Running up those social media points with multiple posts?

Sad.

So you're saying Elko Bong isn't elite?

He is #6....you are #9.

https://youtu.be/a7LH__BPqSY

El-Nuke-the-Hurricanes-Bong posted:

but what about the other receivers?  

I am happy with Aaron Jones.  (I guess I think running backs can be receivers.)

ammo posted:

packerboi posted:

I think after 14 weeks of football, 2 things are pretty apparent:

1.) This team has no #2 WR. 

 

       

 

Gotta disagree with this packerboi.  I think Lazard is a legit #2 if they would just let him play the same number of snaps Adams plays. 

He's a poor man's #2 right now. He is a pretty solid #3 I'd say. 

Boris posted:

He is #6....you are #9.

https://youtu.be/a7LH__BPqSY

I am not a number, I am a free man!

He's the best #2 we have right now PH.   And they need to use him as such.  He just may show he is a legit #2.  And that would free up the draft for something more valuable, like a DL or MLB for depth.   Or even a starting OL. 

phaedrus posted:

El-Nuke-the-Hurricanes-Bong posted:

but what about the other receivers?  

I am happy with Aaron Jones.  (I guess I think running backs can be receivers.)

We suck at making tackles eligible - including Bak and Bulaga

ammo posted:

He's the best #2 we have right now PH.   And they need to use him as such.  He just may show he is a legit #2.  And that would free up the draft for something more valuable, like a DL or MLB for depth.   Or even a starting OL. 

Being the best available #2 doesn't make him a legit #2. If the Packers plan is to move forward with Lazard as the starter opposite Adams in 2020 (they aren't IMO) they are making a mistake. 

They need to draft a RD1 or RD2 WR in April no matter what Lazard or anyone else does from here on out.  It's been too long.

El-Nuke-the-Hurricanes-Bong posted:

phaedrus posted:

El-Nuke-the-Hurricanes-Bong posted:

but what about the other receivers?  

I am happy with Aaron Jones.  (I guess I think running backs can be receivers.)

We suck at making tackles eligible - including Bak and Bulaga

Maybe that's why they signed Veldeheer

DH13 posted:

They need to draft a RD1 or RD2 WR in April no matter what Lazard or anyone else does from here on out.  It's been too long.

McLauren was drafted in round 3. Antonio Brown was drafted in round 4 so was Kittle (TE)

Doesn't have to be RD 1 or 2.

Honestly I'd rather see the FA/trade route for a WR if there's someone out there that they like. I'd rather have more of a sure thing that will produce in 2020.

Boris posted:

El-Nuke-the-Hurricanes-Bong posted:

phaedrus posted:

El-Nuke-the-Hurricanes-Bong posted:

but what about the other receivers?  

I am happy with Aaron Jones.  (I guess I think running backs can be receivers.)

We suck at making tackles eligible - including Bak and Bulaga

Maybe that's why they signed Veldeheer

DH13 posted:

They need to draft a RD1 or RD2 WR in April no matter what Lazard or anyone else does from here on out.  It's been too long.

McLauren was drafted in round 3. Antonio Brown was drafted in round 4 so was Kittle (TE)

Doesn't have to be RD 1 or 2.

Seriously?  Gute "took the odds" two years ago and looks like he came up snake eyes.  You can find talent anywhere but you hedge your bets toward the early rounds.  Do we need to list the best WR's in GB since AR has been here and what RD they were taken?

Boris posted:

Bulaga absolute warrior. Have to re-sign him. 

Rodgers -- he knows he needs to play better if the Pack are going to make a deep run. He already said it.

Saying it is nice. Doing it is another matter.

YATittle posted:

I don't even want him back at Vet minimum. He's useless.

Past his sell-by date.

El-Nuke-the-Hurricanes-Bong posted:

Do we need better lineman- at guard, center and tackle?  

C for sure...Linsley has looked awful at times this year. Vs SF he looked like Jason Spriggs. Need a version of Elgton Jenkins at C. Maybe Lucas Patrick is that guy.

PackerHawk posted:

Honestly I'd rather see the FA/trade route for a WR if there's someone out there that they like. I'd rather have more of a sure thing that will produce in 2020.

That was my thinking as well.  I wouldn't mind trading a future draft pick for solid veteran WR help if available that they think can work with Rodgers.  Hopefully we'd have better luck with veteran WRs than we have with TEs who have mostly been abysmal with the exception of a brief period from Jared Cook. 

excalibur posted:

Boris posted:

Bulaga absolute warrior. Have to re-sign him. 

Rodgers -- he knows he needs to play better if the Pack are going to make a deep run. He already said it.

Saying it is nice. Doing it is another matter.

Second guessing after the fact and saying I told you so is another another matter.