You mean yellow Ford Focus models don’t just self destruct after about 10 minutes of driving?
holy shite
I see AR has been out playing golf with John Elway. Maybe Mark Murphy needs to call up AR and hook him up for a golf game. Something tells me Murphy would think that is below him..
@Grave Digger posted:You could argue Marino, Manning (in Indy), Roethlisberger, Favre, Kelly, etc. all had their careers wasted,
Pittsburgh with Roethlisberger at QB has been to 3 SBs and won 2. Green Bay with Rodgers is at 1 and 1.
Packer fans, as opposed to fans of the Packer FRONT OFFICE, would undoubtedly trade 3 or even maybe 4 of those much vaunted, by FRONT OFFICE fans, NFC North division titles over the past decade for another 2 SB appearances and another SB win.
Do the FRONT OFFICE fans consider Big Ben to be a better QB than ARod or just luckier ... because we know it can't be the case that the Steelers' coaches or GM were superior to the immortals who have occupied the GM and coaching positions in GB during Rodgers' tenure.
As for Manning, he went to 4 SBs and won 2 (1 and 1 with Indy - wonder why fans of the Pack's FRONT OFFICE would want to hide Peyton's overall SB record ... it can't be because both Indy and Denver surpassed Green Bay when it came to SB appearances with Manning as their QB could it?)
And not only do most Colts fans believe the organization underachieved with Manning at QB but so does Indy's owner: (from 2013) "(Tom) Brady never had consistent numbers, but he has three of these," Irsay adds. "Pittsburgh had two, the Giants had two, Baltimore had two and we had one. That leaves you frustrated."
https://www.usatoday.com/story...ton-manning/2984615/
Kelly went to 4 and lost all 4 SBs with Buffalo.
First off, nobody thinks Kelly was as talented as Rodgers. Nobody.
Secondly, the disappointment, heartache, and misery over what happened during that era in Buffalo has been the subject of multiple documentaries and haunted the franchise for a generation. Surprisingly, all those NFC East division titles and AFC Championship victories (not appearances, victories) do not seem to mean as much as the wasted SB opportunities ... at least to Bills fans.
Finally, with his unquestioned talent and but one SB appearance (a loss) during his HOF career in Miami, Dan Marino is probably the closest comparator to the Rodgers' era in Green Bay.
But that should be cold comfort for the Packer FRONT OFFICE fans, because there will be plenty of discussion, conjecture, articles, speculation, etc. relating to why the Packers only got to (and won) a single SB with Rodgers at QB -- just like the 2020 article from football outsiders linked to below discussing the Dolphins wasting Marino's career.
Yes, all these years later, the wasting a HOF QBs career still resonates with NFL fans generally and Dolphins' fans specifically.
https://dolphinswire.usatoday....years-of-dan-marino/
The only way the Packer front office and its most loyal fans can hope to avoid scrutiny in the near future over the Pack's failure to even get to a second SB with ARod at QB is for Love to hit and hit big ... Jordan might even be the next HOF QB to lead the Pack to ... 1 SB win.
I’m not sure any discussion of QBs pre free agency means anything. That’s how guys like Phil Simms and Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetler were able to win Superbowls. Teams could build and maintain their rosters for years without having to restock key positions.
The other issue is QBs have become overemphasized and overvalued because fans want to see scoring. TDs. The quarterback is key in that regard and rules changes have made it easier to throw and complete passes. The rules have also made it trickier to get points defensively or through special teams.
The issue I see is exactly what the Packers are dealing with in Rodgers. He’s an elite talent, so he’s going to be paid at the top level. Given salary cap constraints, it’s almost impossible to build out rosters to compete for championships when the QB is eating up 20% of the cap.
@SteveLuke posted:Pittsburgh with Roethlisberger at QB has been to 3 SBs and won 2. Green Bay with Rodgers is at 1 and 1.
Well, maybe Rothlisberger averaged more than a 78 rating in his championship games. Aaron Rodgers is not a victim here. He plays better and we win more than one of those games.
BTW, the one we did win his rating? 55. The TEAM carried him. That fucker has never done it by himself.
@Goalline posted:Well, maybe Rothlisberger averaged more than a 78 rating in his championship games. Aaron Rodgers is not a victim here. He plays better and we win more than one of those games.
This. On 3rd and 10, if Rodgers runs it is either a TD or 4th and 2. Then we’re not kicking a field goal!
@SteveLuke posted:Packer fans, as opposed to fans of the Packer FRONT OFFICE,
I stopped reading here. No one is a front office fan, everyone acknowledges that the entire organization has underachieved considering the HOF QB. Just because people aren't incredibly negative and whine about how much they hate the front office doesn't mean they are fans. Like seriously, some of you bitch about the front office, the coaching staff, like half the players, do you even like this team? Are you even a fan of a team if you loathe the parts that make it up save for like 6 or 7 players. Guess that's what true deep knowledgeable fandom is, doesn't seem fun. I will stick with ignorant casual fandom.
@PA green & gold posted:This. On 3rd and 10, if Rodgers runs it is either a TD or 4th and 2. Then we’re not kicking a field goal!
Yes. And in some of those playoff games, no matter how horrible the defense plays, if Rodgers capitalizes on a couple of those plays where he threw a horrible pass or whatever to end a drive, he leaves us 10 points ahead instead of 3 and puts the game out of reach no matter the bad defense.
You can blame the defense all day long -- and it's true the D has been awful in the playoffs -- but you cannot blame 10 years of no SB totally on the D when you also have one of the top-scoring teams every year and one of the greatest QBs ever. Even a blind squirrel should wander into a nut now and then.
@Goalline posted:Well, maybe Rothlisberger averaged more than a 78 rating in his championship games. Aaron Rodgers is not a victim here. He plays better and we win more than one of those games.
Roethlisberger went 10-22 for 166 yards, 1 TD and 2 Ints in Pittsburgh's Super Bowl XL win.
Seattle's only TD that day was set up by a 78-yard INT return.
Big Ben's QB rating was 22.6. That is correct, 22.6.
Amazing what Big Ben and Brady were able to do with top 10 defenses. (Just like Green Bay was able to overcome a poor performance by Rodgers in the 2010 NFCC win over the Bears because ... get this it had its last true top-flight defense [its last such defense] that season).
Meanwhile, Green Bay's defense has given up an average of 35.77 points in Rodgers' 9 playoff defeats since he took over.
Read that again, I wrote A V E R A G E.
Guess how many playoff games the GOAT Tom Brady has won when his defense has given up >35 points in the playoffs?
ZERO.
There is much that Rodgers can, has, should, and will be criticized for.
However, overwhelming evidence points to the FRONT OFFICE and its coaching staffs (from Mac to Dom to Winston Moss to Pettine to Slocum to Zook to Mennenga) as being the principal reasons for the franchise's failure to even get to a second SB with ARod at QB.
This means (unfortunately for all the good, loyal, true, and unquestioning backers of the Pack's FRONT OFFICE out there), that whatever criticism Rodgers deserves pales in comparison to the criticism the front office/coaching staffs deserve for the team's continual failures specifically, but not exclusively, on defense and special teams.
The comment wasn’t that the Packers FO has underachieved or deserves criticism, it was that the FO “sucks”. Which it objectively does not.
@PA green & gold posted:This. On 3rd and 10, if Rodgers runs it is either a TD or 4th and 2. Then we’re not kicking a field goal!
That wasn't Rodgers fault. If Tyler Lancaster and Dean Lowry and done their part Rodgers would have ran the ball. If MVS had more than 115 yards receiving Aaron runs that ball. If Gute had allowed Aaron to choose Mark Murphy's outfit for the game Aaron runs that ball. Gute never lets him choose anything.Aaron is a victim. Poor guy.
@SteveLuke posted:Roethlisberger went 10-22 for 166 yards, 1 TD and 2 Ints in Pittsburgh's Super Bowl XL win.
Seattle's only TD that day was set up by a 78-yard INT return.
Big Ben's QB rating was 22.6. That is correct, 22.6.
The refs won that game for Pittsburgh. Perhaps that's the problem with our FO. Not paying the refs enough. Cheap bastards.
So, now that you have taken this massive diversion what were Rothlisberger's CHAMPIONSHIP GAME rating?
@Grave Digger posted:I stopped reading here.
Are you even a fan of a team if you loathe the parts that make it up
Good that you stopped reading.
My post was certainly not meant to upset the type of loyal fan who posts things like the Packers with Rodgers and his 1 SB appearance and win have accomplished just as much as the Steelers have with Roethlisberger and his 3 SB appearances and 2 wins.
Instead, my response was directed to the more disloyal and less knowledgeable portion of the Packer fan base -- the type who think winning 2 SBs is better than winning 1.
As for alleged Packer fans like myself not being real fans of the team because we dare criticize the FRONT OFFICE or COACHES (or "loathe" them if you prefer) and the FRONT OFFICE and COACHES are part of the Packer organization, does that dictum apply just to the incomparable men who toil away so tirelessly and selflessly in the Pack's FRONT OFFICE and who have done such a bang up job coaching up the boys, especially on defense and special teams ...
or is one also not a true fan if one loathes the part of the team that is currently occupied by the only guaranteed future Hall of Famer in the entire organization?
I made not distinction of who “real” fans were or weren’t. I don’t even know what that means in all honesty. I’m not even sure what you’re arguing either. I love Aaron Rodgers, I don’t think he’s doing anything wrong with his demands, contract or otherwise. Players get screwed over by teams almost constantly and they should pull every level they can to insulate themselves from being screwed. Simultaneously I don’t think the FO is doing anything wrong by planning for the future of the team when you have a 37 year old QB. I also think the sports media is stoking a fire with fake information to make this seem like a much more personal drama than what it really is: a hold out by a player with no leverage left in essentially a contract year coming off an MVP season. This shit is pretty routine, but if you want to get caught up in the reality tv clickbait drama then that’s fine too, but it’s imaginary.
So dont tell me I loathe anyone in this organization. I’ve never bitched about Aaron Rodgers once, yet some people seem to bitch about the FO, coaches, half the players with shitty nicknames almost constantly. That shit is so lame. I will happily take the mantle of homer or ignorant or casual fan if that’s what my level of fandom means.
It is a bit ironic that the one NFCCG he won (in Chicago) he really didn’t play that well. However, he was brilliant against Atlanta before that and made a number of key plays against the Steelers in the SB win.
In 2014, he threw 2 picks and 1 TD and less than 200 yards against Seattle. While I don’t blame him for that loss, it’s not like he was lights out.
The conference title games against Atlanta and SF were a debacle. The defense got throttled in both of those games.
Fast forward to this year. I thought Rodgers played well. 33/48 for 346 and 3 TDs. It’s the other guys that let him down. Still, they should have won that damn game much like 2014 against Seattle.
Packers get to 5 NFCCG because defense and Rodgers. They win 1 of them because defense. Lose 4 because defense and Rodgers.
So much needs to go right to win any game. Even when overwhelming talent is on your side, individaul performances from all personnel is key.
@SteveLuke posted:Do the FRONT OFFICE fans consider Big Ben to be a better QB than ARod or just luckier ... because we know it can't be the case that the Steelers' coaches or GM were superior to the immortals who have occupied the GM and coaching positions in GB during Rodgers' tenure.
To me its very simple if you want to compare the Steelers and Packers. There was one constant during Big Bens best years and that was a defense and usually a pretty darn good one. Something that Rodgers had very sporadically in his time in GB.
They certainly weren’t beating the Falcons in 2016 or Niners a couple of years ago no matter how well Rodgers played. The defense was awful in both of those games.
They should have beaten Seattle in 2014 and Tampa this year. They just didn’t execute in key moments and they weren’t aggressive enough.
The refs won that game for Pittsburgh. Perhaps that's the problem with our FO. Not paying the refs enough. Cheap bastards.
+1 Lance Easley
@The Heckler posted:To me its very simple if you want to compare the Steelers and Packers. There was one constant during Big Bens best years and that was a defense and usually a pretty darn good one. Something that Rodgers had very sporadically in his time in GB.
It amazes me that people are so ignorant of things so obvious. I get it, the object of the game is to win, but why are QB's mostly judged by SB wins when every other position isn't? I heard Bill Polian this morning say that Dan Marino was the best "throwing QB he ever saw", but never had the defense to get to the SB. Brady has had a top 10 defense 16 of his 19 years as a starter .... Rodgers 3 times , gee I wonder why Brady has won so many SBs?
@Fedya posted:The refs won that game for Pittsburgh. Perhaps that's the problem with our FO. Not paying the refs enough. Cheap bastards.
+1 Lance Easley
One of the worst officiated games in NFL history. After that debacle no one can convince me that pro sports are not fixed.
@Fandame posted:Yes. And in some of those playoff games, no matter how horrible the defense plays, if Rodgers capitalizes on a couple of those plays where he threw a horrible pass or whatever to end a drive, he leaves us 10 points ahead instead of 3 and puts the game out of reach no matter the bad defense.
Ahh yes, what has Rodgers been thinking... why doesn't he simply play better? Like sure, he scores a lot of the time and rarely turns the ball over and that's pretty okay I guess. But maybe if he simply kicked his MVP Hall of Fame level play up a step up or two we fans could get the championships that we deserve?
Ever notice how sometimes Rodgers has a full 1.5 seconds to get rid of the ball... and sure his first 3 reads are covered but sometimes the 4th or 5th guy have a slight window and sure those guys drop the ball when they're wide open but Rodgers isn't even giving them a chance.
Personally I don't know if I'll ever forgive Rodgers for not pulling Brandon Bostick aside and explaining his responsibilities on an onside kick. He was probably celebrating like an idiot over on the sideline instead of focusing on the game and team. He cost me the Super Bowl championship that I had earned by watching weekly and never questioning our highly successful organization.
@The Heckler posted:To me its very simple if you want to compare the Steelers and Packers. There was one constant during Big Bens best years and that was a defense and usually a pretty darn good one. Something that Rodgers had very sporadically in his time in GB.
That's basically the entire point. That and not finding a way to alienate your HOF QB playing at an MVP level.
Other than that,
@Goalline posted:One of the worst officiated games in NFL history. After that debacle no one can convince me that pro sports are not fixed.
Game 6, 2002 NBA playoffs, Kings-Lakers was the most obvious one I've ever seen. The Lakers shot 21 FTs in the 4th quarter and this was a no-call with the officially looking directly at it.
You picked the most obvious one to me too. That Kings franchise has never been the same. That was their year. I remember going to games when I was in town working on projects for the state and it was a fun team.
@Tschmack posted:They certainly weren’t beating the Falcons in 2016 or Niners a couple of years ago no matter how well Rodgers played. The defense was awful in both of those games.
They should have beaten Seattle in 2014 and Tampa this year. They just didn’t execute in key moments and they weren’t aggressive enough.
Despite all the other issues that arose in Seattle, if the Packers had even a semblance of a competent Special Teams unit in 2014 they are in the Super Bowl.
Instead, they give up a fake field goal TD when everyone and their sibling should have expected it was coming and gave life to a lifeless Seattle squad.
And then a guy who did not deserve to be on the roster decided to play hero on the onside kick and well the rest is Green Bay Packer Special Teams lore.
Of course, when you allow an incompetent nobody who only got his job because his daddy used to coach Texas A&M to coordinate your STs (poorly) for years (including a well-earned #32 ranking in that infamous 2014 season), such an outcome was not exactly unexpected.
Oh well, at least the Packer FRONT OFFICE made sure from that day forward Green Bay's STs would immediately and always be top-notch unit by insisting that only stellar coaches like Ron Zook and Shawn Mennenga would be allowed to coordinate them.
The LACK of emphasis on special teams going back 10 years now DRIVES ME CRAZY. It's hurt us OFTEN.
Retrospective view 3 weeks later...my opinions...
This "rift" between 12 and the FO isn't a new thing, nor has it reached "critical mass."
The most recent narrative is one that started in the mind of Adam Schefter, and the clickbait copy monkeys jumped on board. "Our sources say," was just a way for them to get content out and clicks up, and more importantly, to save face and not look like they got scooped.
My opinion of the front office hasn't been changed because of this latest dust-up. It has pretty much remained the same since the announcement of the "three silos of failure," announcement. I thought it was a moronic structure at the inception. I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.
Full disclosure, I experienced a similarly poor "silo structure," within my organization. It failed miserably, and thankfully, the architect of it was fired 2 years ago...but we are still recovering. We lost some good people because of it, and morale went into the shitter. Basically, it doesn't hold management accountable, and let them routinely throw underlings under the bus. I can't imagine it's a very good fit for any other organization...otherwise lots of others would be doing it.
We won't hear anything of substance about this situation during the AR12 on Kenny Mayne extravaganza on the 24th. One of three things will happen...Either 12 will say it's much ado about nothing, he will engage in some snarky ambiguity game causing further speculation (e.g. he's fucking with us) or he won't address it at all.
12 won't hold out, and he won't be traded. Worst case, he will miss optional camps/OTA's just because he probably doesn't feel the need for them at this point in his career. When it counts, he will be there because he's a professional and always has been.
We will get to see a shit ton of Jordan Love in pre-season. But I think that was coming anyway. A completely wasted rookie season for Nub is a bigger thorn up Gurty's ass than 12's MVP season. I think we will find out a lot on Nub's future as QB1 by the end of pre-season. At the end of the day, practice means jack shit. He has to perform when the bullets are live...and pre-season is as close as he's getting for now.
@Goalline posted:One of the worst officiated games in NFL history. After that debacle no one can convince me that pro sports are not fixed.
Yet you still pay attention
SteveLuke is the MVP of the tread. Well done, sir.
@Tschmack posted:Fast forward to this year. I thought Rodgers played well. 33/48 for 346 and 3 TDs. It’s the other guys that let him down. Still, they should have won that damn game much like 2014 against Seattle.
He did play well. The difference being in each of those losses he didn't play well when he NEEDED to. In those 2 games, the suck defense generated 8(?) turnovers. If I'm not mistaken, one of those picks of Wilson was followed up immediately by a horrible int from the hand of Rodgers.
In fairness to 12, most times he exhibits that "go for the jugular" mentality-when he can put the team up by more than 1 score, at the end of the half, on free plays where he got the D to jump, etc. And 35pts/game is a damning stat as well. I'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that a QB, even a HOF QB, could overcome that stat with regularity.
But by the same token, the notion that the defense has sucked for a whole decade isn't helped by playoff games where they've generated turnovers that lead to no points, or 3 pts when 7 would be a dagger. The truth is that in select games in the playoffs, his defense HAS gotten him extra opportunities, and the offense has done very little.
For those saying it shouldn't all be on Rodgers, I fully agree. But it also shouldn't be on a defense that actually played over their head and has given the offense additional chances to put pts on the board. In that Bears title game, AR threw 2 ints, one being inside the Bears 10. It was a terrible Rodgers int before half that gave Brady his chance at a kill shot as well.
For a defense that sucks so bad, it sure seems like there have been times they've risen to the occasion and had their efforts squandered when it mattered most. If it's optimal to have the ball in Rodgers' hands, and the defense provides that, who's at fault then?
The biggest issue against Tampa was the lack of viable tackles. Turner seems like a good guy, and does okay on the right side, but he and Wagner were no match for Barrett and Pierre Paul. The defense gave up too many crappy plays and points (Air ball that Redmond lost, etc.) and when they did finally make some plays to get the ball back, Rodgers was under duress constantly, especially with Jones out and really one reliable receiver. MVS is the bastard love child of Bill Schroeder and Qadry Ismael, Lazard is a feel-good JAG, and Tonyan really isn't far from that. Dillon and Williams couldn't stress the linebackers.
Artis, that Rodgers int that gave Tampa that kill shot was a blown non call of pass interference. Lazard's entire shoulder pad got exposed as the defender yanked Lazard back to get into position. Pass was right on the money.
@MichiganPacker2 posted:Game 6, 2002 NBA playoffs, Kings-Lakers was the most obvious one I've ever seen. The Lakers shot 21 FTs in the 4th quarter and this was a no-call with the officially looking directly at it.
The worst part is that after all of the terrible calls in that game, especially in the 4th quarter, if *this* call was made correctly, the Kings probably would have won.
Instead the foul was called on Bibby as he was laying on the court with a bloody nose. Awful game.
Wish I knew how to embed videos.