@Grave Digger posted:So a pud QB and a 5th round receiver DIDNT lead a team to a SB?
No, a Championship defense led them.
Did Dean Lowry and Kirksey lead the Packers to the NFCC?
@Henry posted:"Average"
Again, never mind the crazy defenses that went along with Average Manning, Average Eli (won two Average Super Bowls) and Average Brady. Flacco and Foles not only won a Super Bowl but an average Super Bowl MVP.
Totally agree otherwise.
I love that you’ve talked yourself into saying Garapolo, Foles, and Flacco are/were anything but average QBs. You keep hammering this point about defenses as if anyone disagrees that a hilariously good defense won’t carry you to a SB, no one is on the other side of the issue. It’s okay to admit Shannahan, McVay, and LaFleur all run a really good scheme that and the reality is it doesn’t require Aaron Rodgers to go. Every scheme is great with Rodgers, but it can go with Jared Goff, Jimmy G, Nick Mullens, Ryan Tannehill, and likely Matt Stafford look like an all pro. The origin of the scheme is Mike Shannahan who took took John Elway at the end of his career to back to back SBs and the deeper origin is Bill Walsh. So yeah there’s a lot of current success and historically a lot of championships to back up this modernized WCO.
@Grave Digger posted:I love that you’ve talked yourself into saying Garapolo, Foles, and Flacco are/were anything but average QBs. You keep hammering this point about defenses as if anyone disagrees that a hilariously good defense won’t carry you to a SB, no one is on the other side of the issue. It’s okay to admit Shannahan, McVay, and LaFleur all run a really good scheme that and the reality is it doesn’t require Aaron Rodgers to go. Every scheme is great with Rodgers, but it can go with Jared Goff, Jimmy G, Nick Mullens, Ryan Tannehill, and likely Matt Stafford look like an all pro. The origin of the scheme is Mike Shannahan who took took John Elway at the end of his career to back to back SBs and the deeper origin is Bill Walsh. So yeah there’s a lot of current success and historically a lot of championships to back up this modernized WCO.
Fair points, but the Packers defense isn't anywhere near good enough to carry this team. The reason we were in the NFCCG two years in a row is mainly because of QB play.
Also, those Super Bowl teams with great D's also have well above average ST play...a unit that has been a shit show since Nolan Cromwell left.
@Grave Digger posted:I love that you’ve talked yourself into saying Garapolo, Foles, and Flacco are/were anything but average QBs. You keep hammering this point about defenses as if anyone disagrees that a hilariously good defense won’t carry you to a SB, no one is on the other side of the issue. It’s okay to admit Shannahan, McVay, and LaFleur all run a really good scheme that and the reality is it doesn’t require Aaron Rodgers to go. Every scheme is great with Rodgers, but it can go with Jared Goff, Jimmy G, Nick Mullens, Ryan Tannehill, and likely Matt Stafford look like an all pro. The origin of the scheme is Mike Shannahan who took took John Elway at the end of his career to back to back SBs and the deeper origin is Bill Walsh. So yeah there’s a lot of current success and historically a lot of championships to back up this modernized WCO.
No, that's just an easy out for you instead of addressing the facts that if a team like the 9ers, with a beast defense, a bunch of excellent skill players, a solid oline and a decent RB can't win a Super Bowl with Otto QB system.
Imagine what might happen with a solid top 10 defense, a good RB stable, oline and HOF QB with a top 5 WR could do.
Mind boggling.
It's fucking hilarious how you guys continue to talk like tossing aside guys like Adams just makes good sense because he may not be all freakin' world like he is now in 5 years.
If you want to talk about the realities of the cap under Bean Counter GM, fine. What's laughable is how this super stars, these players that made the Packers go, are now somehow to be downplayed and clowns like MVS and the cadre of scrubs WR to go along with pud QB just makes good football sense because Otto QB jeenyous. Christ.
So yeah there’s a lot of current success and historically a lot of championships to back up this modernized WCO.
What a fucking reach.
Oh yes! How could I forget "We don't need Chris Rizzi" ST unit!
It's the Auto Moe system. Or was Menninga more of a Shemp?
They had the #2 rushing offense that year, all with a cast off RBs. Thats all scheme. It’s crazy to say JUST the defense carried them. Yeah their defense was amazing, but Shannahan and his system patched together a SB caliber offense. It works, deal with it. You’ve twisted yourself into a tizzy about what people think GBs scheme needs. EVERYONE believes GB needs Rodgers, Adam’s, Bakhtiari, all of our superstars. You’re pretending that people are saying GB doesn’t need any of these players when in reality, NO ONE said that. You’re having a conversation with yourself and pretending everyone else is debating you and not nearly as smart as you and just not seeing the big picture. The worst someone said is that it may not make sense fiscal sense to throw a 4 year, $100M deal at a single receiver who is closing in on 30. No one said Adams doesn’t deserve or that they don’t want him to stay. What if we bought 3 really good receivers with that $100M instead of 1 great receiver? It’s not an idiotic.
Keep screaming at everyone how stupid they are though.
@Henry posted:And lost.
Because as we know, it was the offense that really made that team go. Oh goodness! You mean you forgot about the monster defense loaded with high #1 picks and FAs?
Didn't they draft and sign skill players too? Who needs that? I'm guessing Gunt will be signing Tonyan to a 5 year 75 mil deal any day now because plug and play amirite! Why would you even pay that kind of contract?
Common mistake.
Dumb Gunt better go swing a trade for Garapolo for Rodgers pronto!
Jesus fuck.
Yah, go ahead and pay the WR a gillion dollars. That should leave a lot of room for you to complain that we have no defensive linemen. Meanwhile 75% of the cap is going to the QB and no. 1 WR.
You! But, there were so many good DL available in free agency. Why didn’t Gunt sign one?
@Grave Digger posted:Keep screaming at everyone how stupid they are though.
To be honest, that's how I roll out of bed.
49ers OL...3 of 5 were first round draft picks. That is a big reason their pedestrian RB did so well. ZBS when executed properly can turn Terrell Davis into an All Pro.
Tizzy? Don't confuse an urgency to keep the band together with hysteria. This team is close. We have a HOF QB. I'm not interested in what we will be in 4 years when the Gunt Plan comes to fruition. I want this team to try like hell to win NOW.
Yeah, the Shanahan tree seems to be good at getting far, but being unable to seal the deal...2017 ATL loses in SB, 2019 Rams lose in SB, 2020 Packers lose in NFCC, 9ers lose in SB. 2021 Packers lose in NFCC. My faith is more in what 12 can do rather than "the system." I contend if McVince weren't such a stubborn macho man who hung his hat on "we do what we do," we'd have had much more success.
So unless Joe Barry is going to turn this D into the '85 Bears, I think we need 12 and 17 a lot more than some think.
@Grave Digger posted:They had the #2 rushing offense that year, all with a cast off RBs. Thats all scheme. It’s crazy to say JUST the defense carried them. Yeah their defense was amazing, but Shannahan and his system patched together a SB caliber offense. It works, deal with it. You’ve twisted yourself into a tizzy about what people think GBs scheme needs. EVERYONE believes GB needs Rodgers, Adam’s, Bakhtiari, all of our superstars. You’re pretending that people are saying GB doesn’t need any of these players when in reality, NO ONE said that. You’re having a conversation with yourself and pretending everyone else is debating you and not nearly as smart as you and just not seeing the big picture. The worst someone said is that it may not make sense fiscal sense to throw a 4 year, $100M deal at a single receiver who is closing in on 30. No one said Adams doesn’t deserve or that they don’t want him to stay. What if we bought 3 really good receivers with that $100M instead of 1 great receiver? It’s not an idiotic.
Keep screaming at everyone how stupid they are though.
No one. Okay. You go with that.
@Goalline posted:Yah, go ahead and pay the WR a gillion dollars. That should leave a lot of room for you to complain that we have no defensive linemen. Meanwhile 75% of the cap is going to the QB and no. 1 WR.
You! But, there were so many good DL available in free agency. Why didn’t Gunt sign one?
Yes, 75%.
Hey GD,
No one.
@Henry posted:No one. Okay. You go with that.
Yeah exactly. Fantasy world 24/7.
@Chongo posted:49ers OL...3 of 5 were first round draft picks. That is a big reason their pedestrian RB did so well. ZBS when executed properly can turn Terrell Davis into an All Pro.
Tizzy? Don't confuse an urgency to keep the band together with hysteria. This team is close. We have a HOF QB. I'm not interested in what we will be in 4 years when the Gunt Plan comes to fruition. I want this team to try like hell to win NOW.
Yeah, the Shanahan tree seems to be good at getting far, but being unable to seal the deal...2017 ATL loses in SB, 2019 Rams lose in SB, 2020 Packers lose in NFCC, 9ers lose in SB. 2021 Packers lose in NFCC. My faith is more in what 12 can do rather than "the system." I contend if McVince weren't such a stubborn macho man who hung his hat on "we do what we do," we'd have had much more success.
So unless Joe Barry is going to turn this D into the '85 Bears, I think we need 12 and 17 a lot more than some think.
The S of ZBS is? 0 of 5 Packers OL in 2020 were first round picks and they seemed to muddle through the season juuuust fine. Saying the Shannahan scheme doesn’t work because it hasn’t won’t championships is literally the same argument for why Tom Brady is a better QB than Rodgers, Marino, and Fouts. It’s wrong and he’s not.
Constantly saying WELL I WANT TO WIN NOW, I DONT WANT TO LOSE ALL PRO PLAYERS, WE WONT WIN WITHOUT A TOP 10 DEFENSE without any recognition of the nuance that people are discussing is annoying. That’s surface level shit that we all also want, but also like to delve 2 mm deeper on the issue.
Us losing the last two NFCC games had nothing to do with scheme. We got our asses kicked up front in both games. If you are losing nearly every single one-on-one matchup along both lines there is very little chance that you re going to win the game. If Brady had not thrown three INTs the TB would not have been close. Our O-line played great all year (especially vs. Rams), but in that game they were over matched. On the other side Clark was the only front player who had any presence....Smith's were no where to be found. Was it just a bad match up for us or are we really not that close to beating a team like that?
@FLPACKER posted:Us losing the last two NFCC games had nothing to do with scheme. We got our asses kicked up front in both games. If you are losing nearly every single one-on-one matchup along both lines there is very little chance that you re going to win the game. If Brady had not thrown three INTs the TB would not have been close. Our O-line played great all year (especially vs. Rams), but in that game they were over matched. On the other side Clark was the only front player who had any presence....Smith's were no where to be found. Was it just a bad match up for us or are we really not that close to beating a team like that?
I think that TB team was just a bad match up for the Packers. I personally do not think their talent is better (I don't) but GB just doesn't match up to that team because they are more physical. Same with SF when they ran for all those yards on the Packers D. Their defense and OL are more nasty and physical and I just don't think they match up well with those teams.
@Chongo posted:Fair points, but the Packers defense isn't anywhere near good enough to carry this team. The reason we were in the NFCCG two years in a row is mainly because of QB play.
Also, those Super Bowl teams with great D's also have well above average ST play...a unit that has been a shit show since Nolan Cromwell left.
The reason we weren’t in the Super Bowl last year was NOT the defense. An interception, a fumble, a dropped TD pass, and failure to run on 3rd and goal!
@PA green & gold posted:The reason we weren’t in the Super Bowl last year was NOT the defense. An interception, a fumble, a dropped TD pass, and failure to run on 3rd and goal!
A dropped interception, giving up a crucial TD on the last play of the half and 31 points surrendered. They weren't the only reason, but they were at least 50% of the equation.
@Grave Digger posted:The S of ZBS is? 0 of 5 Packers OL in 2020 were first round picks and they seemed to muddle through the season juuuust fine. Saying the Shannahan scheme doesn’t work because it hasn’t won’t championships is literally the same argument for why Tom Brady is a better QB than Rodgers, Marino, and Fouts. It’s wrong and he’s not.
Constantly saying WELL I WANT TO WIN NOW, I DONT WANT TO LOSE ALL PRO PLAYERS, WE WONT WIN WITHOUT A TOP 10 DEFENSE without any recognition of the nuance that people are discussing is annoying. That’s surface level shit that we all also want, but also like to delve 2 mm deeper on the issue.
Athleticism is the key to the ZBS OL...While the Packers OL was very good last year, it wasn't as good as the 9ers in 2020.
I'm not saying the Shanahan system isn't good, just saying, it's not some infallible scheme we all just need to have faith in because talent doesn't matter that much in it.
When have I (or Henry for that matter) said we must win now outside of this season? IIRC, it's been a pretty recent development for me (I can't speak for Henry) but largely because it seems our "leaders" are pissing away the end of our HOF QB's career in the name of "we are building for the future."
I understand building for the future, but it's not like this is Jay Cutler, or Kirk Cousins here...if we had an above-middling QB, I'd say yeah, forget all-in and rebuild this thing, and take the losses in the name of maybe in 2-3 years we will be built to rule the next 10. Also, I never said sign 17 at all costs, but it's hard to swallow not re-signing him when this team's track record in the last 5 years for drafting and developing WR has been fucking awful.
Since 17 was drafted, our best WR taken or signed in FA has been MVS. That is pathetic.
@Chongo posted:I'm not saying the Shanahan system isn't good, just saying, it's not some infallible scheme we all just need to have faith in because talent doesn't matter that much in it.
Blasphemy!
I hate the thought of this, but I cannot see how he gets bank from us. As much as it pains me, I see a trade coming, somehow; and not really related to 12, if he is traded. We can't bundle the 2 togther as it hurts our draft position, since their team will likely be better with both...I would LOVE for him to be here, but we cannot pay him and 23, and frankly, 23 is a bigger priority to me...
@Grave Digger posted:The S of ZBS is? 0 of 5 Packers OL in 2020 were first round picks and they seemed to muddle through the season juuuust fine. Saying the Shannahan scheme doesn’t work because it hasn’t won’t championships is literally the same argument for why Tom Brady is a better QB than Rodgers, Marino, and Fouts. It’s wrong and he’s not.
Adam Stenovich, and frankly Gute, doesn't get enough credit for the OL either. Stenovich has been simply outstanding in coaching up these players to not only be good OL but also to be incredibly versatile.
How many teams have multiple OL who can literally play up and down the OL?
Dudes like Jenkins and Turner can go to multiple positions AND play pretty damn well.
And Gute is directly responsible for drafting and continuing to stock this OL with pretty decent players. So much so that it's being rumored a veteran like Lucas Patrick may not even make the 53 because this area has so much depth.
Any NFL team would kill to have this "problem"
@Chongo posted:A dropped interception, giving up a crucial TD on the last play of the half and 31 points surrendered. They weren't the only reason, but they were at least 50% of the equation.
We had 3 INT's that game. How many is enough? The crucial TD was given up right after our HOF QB threw an INT himself.
What does any of this have to do with Adams?
Davante Adams, Packers at ‘beginning stage’ of contract discussions (usatoday.com)
Adams, who is entering the final year of his deal in 2021, told Paulina Dedja of Fox News that he’s had preliminary talks with the Packers. He also reiterated that the team’s situation with Aaron Rodgers will play a factor in the process.
“That’ll play into it, but there’s been talks, just really just talks, but we haven’t really done anything or talked about anything that’s worth mentioning,” Adams said. “It’s kind of just been the beginning stage of talking, and we’ll figure out what happens. Hopefully, something gets figured out, but I’m just there to play ball either way. That stuff will take care of itself eventually.”
@packerboi posted:Adam Stenovich, and frankly Gute, doesn't get enough credit for the OL either. Stenovich has been simply outstanding in coaching up these players to not only be good OL but also to be incredibly versatile.
How many teams have multiple OL who can literally play up and down the OL?
Dudes like Jenkins and Turner can go to multiple positions AND play pretty damn well.
And Gute is directly responsible for drafting and continuing to stock this OL with pretty decent players. So much so that it's being rumored a veteran like Lucas Patrick may not even make the 53 because this area has so much depth.
Any NFL team would kill to have this "problem"
I think Uncle Milty has also been crucial as an outside consultant. Not sure where heard it but he was the one who pushed Gutey to take Jenkins...had been scouting him when he was with the Ravens.
@Chongo posted:Athleticism is the key to the ZBS OL...While the Packers OL was very good last year, it wasn't as good as the 9ers in 2020.
I'm not saying the Shanahan system isn't good, just saying, it's not some infallible scheme we all just need to have faith in because talent doesn't matter that much in it.
When have I (or Henry for that matter) said we must win now outside of this season? IIRC, it's been a pretty recent development for me (I can't speak for Henry) but largely because it seems our "leaders" are pissing away the end of our HOF QB's career in the name of "we are building for the future."
I understand building for the future, but it's not like this is Jay Cutler, or Kirk Cousins here...if we had an above-middling QB, I'd say yeah, forget all-in and rebuild this thing, and take the losses in the name of maybe in 2-3 years we will be built to rule the next 10. Also, I never said sign 17 at all costs, but it's hard to swallow not re-signing him when this team's track record in the last 5 years for drafting and developing WR has been fucking awful.
Since 17 was drafted, our best WR taken or signed in FA has been MVS. That is pathetic.
No one said “talent doesn’t matter much”. Talent certainly matters much. If comes down to affording 2 or 3 good receivers or 1 great receiver, I just don’t think 1 great receiver is worth that kind of investment. It’s nothing specific against Adams. The system isn’t infallible, but the concepts in the passing game naturally open things up for receivers regardless of skill level. The scheme + outstanding play calling creates easy opportunities in the pass and run game for guys to succeed. Would MVS, Lazard, and Tonyan be able to get open as consistently as they do now in McCarthy’s scheme? I tend to think not.
The point isn’t to say we don’t need Rodgers, Adams, etc. it’s that you can’t have the highest paid player in the league at EVERY position and field consistent depth across the board. We pay KC, Smith, Rodgers, Bakh, and Jones top dollar and we’re about to have to pay Jaire the same. Next year it will be Savage and Gary looking for commitments. Something has to give.
@packerboi posted:
Maybe Mark Murphy can help by going on record and calling him a dipshit or something.
@tsr86free posted:He’s a complicated dipshit.
@packerboi posted:
They say this cat Aaron is a bad mother
SHUT YOUR MOUTH!
I'm talkin' 'bout Rodgers.
THEN WE CAN DIG IT!
He's a complicated man
But no one understands him but his woman
AROD!
@PA green & gold posted:The reason we weren’t in the Super Bowl last year was NOT the defense. An interception, a fumble, a dropped TD pass, and failure to run on 3rd and goal!
And an idiot D coordinator who did not believe a Hail Mary was coming, just thought they were trying to get closer for a field goal.
Packers FO member, Milt Henderson. Apparently, Chongo is impressed by the size of his member?
@Goalline posted:Packers FO member, Milt Henderson. Apparently, Chongo is impressed by the size of his member?
Somebody tell Chongo that Milt is more than a consultant...he's been the Director of Football Operations for GB since Jan 2019.
He and Gute were buddies at La Crosse and they've known each other for decades. Milt spent 14 years working with Ozzie in Baltimore, dude knows his shit. He was also instrumental in the pursuit of Z Smith, former Raven.
https://www.packers.com/team/f...ter/milt-hendrickson
And GL - you get a thousand points for the Milty Massive Member meme
Davante up to 12 pages,,,,,
Who'd a Thunk?
Goalline's member is 1 Goalline in length and the rest of us are multiple Goallines?
Is that supposed to be funny or just your normal nonsense?
Your jokes are 1 ammo funny; most people around here are kiloammos funny.
ammo and Fedya in a joke contest is like Don Knotts and Arnold Horshack in a Blair Kiel look alike contest.
Fail.