State of the Packers

Again it makes business sense to move on from Rodgers. It just all seems kind of shitty when it actually has to be done. I don’t think Rodgers is necessarily in decline, I don’t think any QB makes average receivers great...they allow receivers to fulfill their potential which many are underrated, but no QB is going to turn Jeff Janis or Jarrett Boykin into superstars. Give Rodgers another Adams or even just another James Jones and I think that “decline” goes away. 

As for Favre, all I meant is that the organization made a decision to move on from Favre. The organization was in the right 100%, but it’s still what happened. He would have played for GB in ‘08 and maybe longer IMO if TT and MM didn’t have the stones to move on. I hate to see that unceremoniously get ushered out of GB when he’s still a viable player.

Rodgers is absolutely in decline from where he used to be.  There's zero question about that.  That doesn't mean he isn't one of the best QB's in the game though... because he is.  

This whole "playing into my 40's" thing should be taken with a huge grain of salt.  The likes of Brees and Brady have blurred those lines for people.  Bodies start breaking down for professional athletes in their 30's, especially football players.  

Just because AR wants to play into his 40's doesn't mean it's a good idea or that GB should be paying him enormous amounts of money to do it.  

Thought AR handled the media session extremely well. 

@Music City posted:

I think the only time I’ve been actually pissed off on the Packers Draft was the passing on TJ Watt. It’s the draft equivalent of the ‘14 NFCC Game. Had it, it was there, and then that helpless feeling after. Then watching Biegel get his career on track in MIA just pours salt in the wound. The only thing left is King, who could still be great. But I feel my teeth grit every time I see TJ Watt on the highlight reel. 

I felt the same way.  The guy I wanted the most at a position of need fell to the Packers and then we passed on him, only to see the guy turn into an all-pro.  IMO, this is up there with TT's worst mistakes in his career.  It just didn't make any sense other than TT just flat out screwed up his evaluation of Watt.  

@FLPACKER posted:

The thing that none of us know is what really goes on. At the time no one knew that in Favre's last game he was uncommunicative at halftime and acted like he didn't want to play, which prompted MM to say; "if he wasn't Brett Favre I'd pull him". TT took the hit, but MM didn't want to coach Fave anymore. I hated the Love pick, but McGinn could be right, AR may have not made the reads, changed plays, stayed with game plan that LaFeur wanted.....I really hope not as I've always been an AR fan, but it is possible, we just don't know. 

Agreed.

There's a couple of flip sides to your and GD's arguments, both which I agree with btw. 

1) GergenPace and Mayo may already be done with Rodgers.  I find it pretty impossible to believe that Rodgers would be so completely uncooperative as to make things difficult but maybe there's something there performance or mentality wise that made them pull the trigger on drafting Love. 

2) GooteyPace and Mayo believe Love is a "generational" talent.  I hate this argument simply because we know he's definitely an underwear champion but it's the decisions that worry me.  I know we can look at Love's 2018 and 2019 seasons and point out all the changes but more than few reads on Love highlighted just how bad 2019 decision making was.  If they plan to use Love like 2018 Love which was a bunch of shorter passes with YAC, well, that's not a move up in the first round kind of pick.

We don't know the thinking but I surely hope this isn't a "we got our guy" before even knowing if he can actually play at a high level in the NFL.  This is where I agree with GD.  You're not signalling to move on from Nick Foles, it's Rodgers.  To me, Love isn't 2005 Rodgers.  Not even close.

GorfenPace bet his and team's immediate success and future on Love.  He better be right.

@CUPackFan posted:

I felt the same way.  The guy I wanted the most at a position of need fell to the Packers and then we passed on him, only to see the guy turn into an all-pro.  IMO, this is up there with TT's worst mistakes in his career.  It just didn't make any sense other than TT just flat out screwed up his evaluation of Watt.  

It was an overall symbol of dysfunction across the board.  As mentioned, Biegel actually started performing, like several others, when they left the Packers.  It was just a nebulous clusterfuck at that point.  This is the whole chicken/egg thing but clown coaches like Moss getting nothing out of the talent that was there had to create drafting conundrums as well.  I think the whole thing just spun out of control and became completely disjointed as the whole organization dashed itself against the rocks of trying to build some kind of defense.  TT whiffed more and more and The Wizard and Country Club set pissed away whatever potential was there all while McVince was getting massages with Coach Boyle and Coach Kizer running the offense. 

@GBFanForLife posted:

No one pushed Favre out. The fucker cried for years before he was traded.

You're an idiot if you believe that, just like we're all foolish for not seeing the writing on the wall with Rodgers. These guys are ego maniacs, including the coaches and front office folks.

Thompson wanted "his own guy", hence, McCarthy.

Thompson and McCarthy wanted "their own guy", hence Rodgers and Favre saw the "writing on the wall".

Gutekunst wanted "his own guy", had the opportunity, and we have LaFleur.

LaFleur and Gutekunst want "their own guy", and drafted Love.

Add in the fact both QBs were in their mid-30s and it's easier to justify, but it's not as if the same program isn't repeated throughout the league. The GMs, then coaches planned for it and took their opportunity. And yeah, it's what they're paid to do and it's on them, whether we fans like it or not. 

Buddy Nix (former Bills GM) said the difference between being a genius and a moron is finding a franchise QB (of your own). He didn't, and is remembered less than the guys that did. John Dorsey went from the stuff in KC with Mahommes to a scrub in Cleveland. Jon Schneider is the stuff in Seattle in large part because of Russell Wilson. Reggie McKenzie is not with David Carr.

How many teams hope they found their guy, a guy that will be the guy for a decade?

How many have failed? 

Im actually happy they are looking and took a shot at Love....do I have an over abundance of confidence that he is the guy?  No, but let the search begin. 

It has too.

Think "wanting their own guy" at QB with both Love and AR was largely more a function of where the predecessor was in his career (quite late in both cases). Seen lots of talk about Love being a franchise player  or Brian Brohm and my guess is he's likely to land somewhere in the massive gap between the two extremes. 

@Herschel posted:

You're an idiot if you believe that, just like we're all foolish for not seeing the writing on the wall with Rodgers. These guys are ego maniacs, including the coaches and front office folks.

Thompson wanted "his own guy", hence, McCarthy.

Thompson and McCarthy wanted "their own guy", hence Rodgers and Favre saw the "writing on the wall".

Gutekunst wanted "his own guy", had the opportunity, and we have LaFleur.

LaFleur and Gutekunst want "their own guy", and drafted Love.

Add in the fact both QBs were in their mid-30s and it's easier to justify, but it's not as if the same program isn't repeated throughout the league. The GMs, then coaches planned for it and took their opportunity. And yeah, it's what they're paid to do and it's on them, whether we fans like it or not. 

Buddy Nix (former Bills GM) said the difference between being a genius and a moron is finding a franchise QB (of your own). He didn't, and is remembered less than the guys that did. John Dorsey went from the stuff in KC with Mahommes to a scrub in Cleveland. Jon Schneider is the stuff in Seattle in large part because of Russell Wilson. Reggie McKenzie is not with David Carr.

You're an idiot if you think Favre wasn't washed up. I certainly didn't enjoy the piles of hand warmers on the field and the season ending interception against the Giants. The best part was when he got to end the vikings season the same way.

@FinnLander posted:

My guess is Rodgers' injury history, as well as his recent play, factors in to the Love pick.  And I'm not sure many GMs are willing to just "ride it out" rather than trying to (i) improve their team & (ii) keep their job.

For all we know Rodgers could be the next Alex Smith.  Guys you run away from at 28 are now able to grab a leg at 35 and BOOM, you are done. End of career. If that should happen hopefully Love has enough talent to step right in. 

I don’t think it’s about wanting “my guy” at all. I think there is an element of guys want to start from the ground up training a QB in their system, but any coach who is afraid to work with a veteran isn’t going to succeed. TT and MM wanted to move on from Favre because he 1) he threw a ton of INTs and didn’t listen to his coach 2) literally wasn’t part of the lockerroom and wasn’t really part of the team 3) they had a QB they believed on the roster and 4) he fucking retired. There are 18 other reasons that could be laid out, it wasn’t about ego IMO. This one feels different because Rodgers is very part of the team, seems to get along with his coaches and teammates, and wants to keep playing. I hope this one is simply GB thinking they found the next Rodgers or Mahomes and nothing else. Why would you pass on someone like that? I can buy the logic and I’m glad we could be prepared for another 15 years of domination, but the Love pick plus the lack of action on key weaknesses feels like they’re just giving up on Rodgers.

@CUPackFan posted:

 It just didn't make any sense other than TT just flat out screwed up his evaluation of Watt.  

TT wanted Tredavious White - when he wasn't there he felt the best thing to do was trade down. I agree with that assessment AT THE TIME! You don't get the benefit of hindsight. 

Some of you act like TJ Watt = Reggie White. Newsflash, he doesn't. Is he good? Yes. Who gives a shit? 

Jeezuss effing tap dancing keerist on a cracker.

How many gallons of water under the bridge do we have to go thru to get past this?? Eleventy Sextillion?!?!?

@Satori posted:

We're watching the Packers. They swept the division, went 4-0 without Adams, threw for more than 4000 yards, scored 19 rushing TDs and had the 2nd best regular season record in the entire NFL. You can look that up right here:

https://www.nfl.com/standings/league/2019/REG.  Just sort it by "league"

Then they took their team into the playoffs, beat the Seahawks and made it to the NFC CG. That's what we're watching and it was a lot of fun both for the fans and for the players. A bunch of the players said they really came together and really had a blast playing for each other. Super cool to see for the new HC

Its a darn shame you missed all the fun - but that's on you, not the Packers

Good post.  Not only that, MLF did something no other Packer HC has EVER done.  And that is take the team to the playoffs the first year.  Nope, not Lambeau, not Lombardi, not Bengston, Devine, Starr, Gregg, Infante, Holmgren, Rhodes, Sherman, McCarthy - not any of those could do such a thing.  Only MLF - and then he gets to the championship game besides.  I am with you Satori - got to enjoy it while we can.  I can't help others to enjoy the ride.  As AR said recently - "I can only control what I can control".  Or something like that.  When they hire me to worry about various aspects of the team - I will then.  But last I knew I wasn't on the payroll.  

PS - I know I missed a few HCs between Lambeau and Lombardi.  I am not sweating that either.  

Scooter McLean?

TJ Watt is not JJ Watt.

Some of you act like TJ Watt = Reggie White. Newsflash, he doesn't. Is he good? Yes. Who gives a shit? 

But he went to Wisconsin!

@YATittle posted:

Scooter McLean?

Blackbourn & Ronzani too.  It was a forgettable time.  

@GBFanForLife posted:

TJ Watt is not JJ Watt.

What????

What a difference a T makes.

My take is that Arod doesn't actually know, despite all the yoga and avoiding dairy and whatever, when the end will come. I maintain that Brees and Brady have been slipping in recent years and adjusting their game to accommodate that. Will Rodgers? Will he at some point just say I'm done, or will he go the somewhat embarrassing Peyton Manning route and get a Super Bowl ring even though the coach wouldn't put the ball in your hand at a key point during third down late in the Super Bowl because you, at that point, had become a liability.

Something tells me Arod's pride won't let him go down that road.

I could be wrong.

@Boris posted:

Some of you act like TJ Watt = Reggie White. Newsflash, he doesn't. Is he good? Yes. Who gives a shit? 

He’s a fucking first team All Pro, from All Pro stock, from the home state, home college, who performed as well as or better than the best defender on the Packers team in 2019. He forced 8 fumbles- the Packers as a team forced 12. He had 14.5 sacks last year- which would have lead the Packers. He had as many QB hits as Z. The guy’s one of the best defenders in the NFL. He’s a little more than “good”. 

Why can’t people let it go? Because there was absolutely no reason for the Packers to pass on him. Try to rationalize that all you want, or call it water under the bridge- it goes down as an All-Time fuck up and very likely contributed to the total overhaul of the organization that has followed. If they take Watt, they don’t have to spend $60M on Z. Or maybe they still do and have the baddest ass defense in the NFL. Instead, King “might” be OK and Biegel looks good in a Miami uniform. Fuck... 

@Pikes Peak posted:

King may turn into a player,  I don't see the word great in his resume.  Hope I am wrong.

I don't think you will ever use the word great for King but he is a pretty darn solid corner when he is healthy.

As for the Love pick didn't Gute do an interview and said that he wouldn't be opposed to taking a QB in round one if the board fell that way?  AR even said he would understand that it could happen since he is a realist.  

I wish Rodgers would have repeated those words after the fact.  

I'm still upset about the Mandarich debacle.  I pee myself a little bit every time I think about it.  My work on my time machine hasn't been productive.

@Pikes Peak posted:

How many teams hope they found their guy, a guy that will be the guy for a decade?

How many have failed? 

Im actually happy they are looking and took a shot at Love....do I have an over abundance of confidence that he is the guy?  No, but let the search begin. 

It has too.

 

I agree and I’m cool with the pick. I thought they might tab a potential successor this draft, but really everything was lined up for them to do it and they did. With things falling as they were, there was likely no doubt this was the move they wanted to make.

@michiganjoe posted:

Think "wanting their own guy" at QB with both Love and AR was largely more a function of where the predecessor was in his career (quite late in both cases). Seen lots of talk about Love being a franchise player  or Brian Brohm and my guess is he's likely to land somewhere in the massive gap between the two extremes. 

It always is. How many front office or coaches move on with Actual young franchise QBs in house? 

As usual the Packers are ahead of the curve. The Vikings should've drafted a QB unless they think Kark is their QB until 2025.

@Herschel posted:

It always is. How many front office or coaches move on with Actual young franchise QBs in house? 

Guess I just don't equate finding a successor when it's time with wanting their own guy at QB.

If they can coach the dumb mistakes out of Love they may be in business. 

Apparently Mayo is the new QB "guru".  I'm pretty sure there's at least 32 QB "gurus" in the NFL.

@Boris posted:

As usual the Packers are ahead of the curve. 

When Ted was at his best, not only did he hit on the draft and several key FA and UDFA's....but he was always looking to the future. Planning 2-3-4 years down the road to fit the philosophy, needs, and have it work within the future salary cap. Disappointing he fell off at the end, but he was very good in his day.

We don't know all the reasoning behind the Love pick. If Gutey is thinking " Rodgers is getting old, 2 more years with his contract.....let's not panic when the time comes, but be ready by developing a guy I really like for those two years".

Gives some nice options ...you evaluate Love while Rodgers plays his "back 9". If neither is an option in 2 years you plan accordingly.  If both can still play - it's a really nice problem to have.  

@CUPackFan posted:

I felt the same way.  The guy I wanted the most at a position of need fell to the Packers and then we passed on him, only to see the guy turn into an all-pro.  IMO, this is up there with TT's worst mistakes in his career.  It just didn't make any sense other than TT just flat out screwed up his evaluation of Watt.  

I remember reading somewhere that the packers don't like to take in state players high because of the added pressure. GB hadn't taken a player before round three since Jim Temp 1955 and the only one 3rd rounder back to 1955 was Don Davey. 

@Henry posted:

If they can coach the dumb mistakes out of Love they may be in business. 

Apparently Mayo is the new QB "guru".  I'm pretty sure there's at least 32 QB "gurus" in the NFL.

The same was said of Favre every season for his entire career.

Favre also won a Superbowl in an era where they could spend to cover up dumb mistakes like having a monster defense.  Love doesn't have that luxury so he needs to be like Rodgers and not play like a bonehead.  Hence, the necessity to not draft on undie olympics potential.

The Packers didn't need to draft Love. Put Opie under center.

Trade Rodgers for 50 draft picks.  Draft 5 blocking TEs and load up your defense.  The new NFL model.

I am not totally sure they wanted to draft Love in the first round, but I think they would have moved up in the second to get him if he was still there. I think they really wanted to go elsewhere in the first round, but by the time they drafted even moving up all their primary targets were gone: WRs: Ruggs, Reagor, Jefferson, Aiyuk, Jeudy... all gone. LBs: Simmons, Murray... gone. OTs: Thomas, Wills, Becton, Wirfs, Jackson... gone. DE/DTs: Young, Kinlaw, Chaisson... gone.

At that point, it seems like every other team was drafting for the same needs we were, and Gutterguts and MLF probably moved Plan Heir-Apparent into the first round rather than wait till the second.

Still, I'm cool with the pick. Better now than ending up with a Cousins or Fitzpatrick or a rookie who has to do on-the-job training before we find out he sucks.

@Henry posted:

The Packers didn't need to draft Love. Put Opie under center.

Trade Rodgers for 50 draft picks.  Draft 5 blocking TEs and load up your defense.  The new NFL model.

Go Hippo in the wildcat

@Boris posted:

As usual the Packers are ahead of the curve. The Vikings should've drafted a QB unless they think Kark is their QB until 2025.

They may be, and if the ‘scouty-type guys’ are correct, and if the 2020 season is truncated, or worse, the 2021 draft will be in the position to challenge this year’s for receiver talent with minimal loss of time/

it's not so much that it wasn't a sellout as max macgee's handover catch.

I don't get you Oshbaul.