Why Capers must go

quote:

Originally posted by LarseeBear:
I really think we see a different game if we're as healthy as SF and we utilize Harris and Cobb more. Move the chains and keep the D off the field. Harris was 11 for 53, wasn't he? What the heck is wrong with that.

Nothing is wrong with that. Harris looked good, but MM, as he often does, completely abandoned the run. That goes back to my previous point about whether or not the Packers CAN'T or simply WON'T run the ball. Personally, I think it's a bit of both.

I do rememeber after the Viking loss that one of their receivers said in an interview that they knew exactly what defense the Packers would be in on a 3rd and 11 and exactly where the whole in the zone would be.

Woodson was openly questioning why they didn't do something different. I like Dom, but I think it's time to move on.

TT hasn't drafted any very good LB outside of Matthews. Bishop is slow. If a guy with speed were next to him (inside AND outside) then he can be fine but when it's AJ Hawk and Walden, his lack of range comes in to play. I'm not sure Perry is fast enough either, but maybe.

What does that even mean? This isn't little league/junior high/high school football. If you can't use the gameplan you think is best because you don't think the players can or will execute it, then you have MAJOR personnel problems.

[QUOTE]

...well I coach another sport at the college level but it's all coaching...what it means is that you have to know your players well enough to gauge just what you put into the gameplan. You may think you know another teams tendencies so well that you put together a plan that relies on players recognizing certain things & reacting a certain way to them, however you must determine if your players can : 1) menatlly execute 2) physically execute. When Kaepernick runs untouched for 170+ yards it tells me that the players made alot of mental errors, which leads one to speculate that they were not able to execute the gameplan, which brings me to the question of Capers having known (through his knowledge of players past performance, test runs in practice, & written exams)just what his players were capable of BEFORE the game. Perhaps the speed of which the plays unfolded were too much for the defenders to execute the needed reads, you anticipate that this may happen & be ready to go to plan "B"...do you know know "what I mean"????

quote:

Originally posted by Sep:

quote:

Originally posted by LarseeBear:
I really think we see a different game if we're as healthy as SF and we utilize Harris and Cobb more. Move the chains and keep the D off the field. Harris was 11 for 53, wasn't he? What the heck is wrong with that.

Nothing is wrong with that. Harris looked good, but MM, as he often does, completely abandoned the run. That goes back to my previous point about whether or not the Packers CAN'T or simply WON'T run the ball. Personally, I think it's a bit of both.

Rodgers, in his post-game presser, mentioned Harris having the hot hand early and that they went away from it and didn't go back to it.

So he's facing an offense that no one else in the NFL runs to with this degree of success, run by a QB that he has never faced, and he's supposed to know which players will and won't be able to handle it? Handle something he doesn't even know what to expect? I agree you play the personnel that will be effective against what you expect to face, but what do you do when you don't what you're facing? Anyone want to know how many true 3-4 defenses Kaepernick had started against this season? 1. He started against Arizona. Now how is Capers suppose to know how SF's offense will attack a 3-4 based on one game against a really crap Arizona team?

Kooperdick had 3 rushes for 5 yards against the Cardinals.

quote:

Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Here's the reason we couldn't stop their offense:

1. Zero pressure on Kaep. From the edge and especially not from the middle. Kaep felt no pressure when wasn't running.
2. Poor coverage by Tramon. He couldn't keep up with Crabtree. Their best WR was whooping our best cover CB.
3. Terrible effort/technique by our ILBs. They couldn't shed OL, they couldn't stay with Kaep, they couldn't get home at all.

None of those things are Capers fault. Players can't win 1 on 1's, CBs can't cover, ILBs can't do their job. What possible adjustment could have been made to cover up those deficiencies?

I think you'll get a lot of agreement that the Packers could use an upgrade in defensive personnel, espeically at the linebacker position.

But to put this solely on the players seems extreme. So let's flip the question around -- if it's a given you have some inferior players on defense, is there ever a scenario where you think a defensive coordinator should be replaced? After all, it's the players making the mistakes...what would it take to convince you the coordinator is an issue too?

If Capers isn't accountable because his players weren't good enough, then what did Ed Donatell or Bob Sanders do to deserve replacement? Surely they had some players who didn't make plays. Or, on the other extreme, how was New England able to win Super Bowls with Troy Brown playing cornerback?

The reality is it's the defensive coordinators job to put players in positions to make plays and overcome whatever personnel weaknesses are there. When CK is gaining 178 yards without contact, that's a condemnation of both the players and the coach, not just the players. The same can be said when Kurt Warner is throwing more TDs than incompletions in a playoff game, or Ben Roethlisberger is throwing for over 500 yards, or Cam Newton is throwing for over 400 yards in his second game, or Adrian Peterson amassess over 400 yards in 8 quarters.

Sure, upgrade the personnel best you can. But at some point, let's hold the coaching staff accountable. Ed Donatell wasn't given countless chances because Darren Sharper dropped too deep on a 4th and 26 play. Bob Sanders wasn't given countless chances because Al Harris got completely owned by Plaxico Burress. If that performance on Saturday, on the heels of what we saw in 2009 and 2011, isn't enough to do in Capers, what will it honestly take?

I believe in the last decade, only one team has one the Super Bowl giving up over 30 points in a playoff game -- the Colts when they had that comeback over New England in the AFC Championship game and went on to win the title. The last three playoff losses for Green Bay are 51, 37, and 45.

I would not be presumptous to suggest that he stay or go, as they say, that is above my pay grade.....however these stats are very telling IMO. Stats in the playoffs against 3 very different offenses. Our d failed aganst them all, pocket qb, a running qb and a ground and pound team.


** I think this is what Pikes meant **

vs SFO - Jan 13 2013 45 pts 579 yds
vs NYG - Jan 15 2012 37 pts 420 yds
vs ARI - Jan 10 20120 51 pts 531 yds



Folks this is not OK and just amatter of adjusting to different teams. This is ongoing, putrid and shows no sign of changing.

Can anyone expect a offense to score at least 38 points to win?

Complete the picture. Where are the 2011 stats?

From the +/- thread after the loss to SF in the opener. Not much changed but the margin of loss.

quote:

Originally posted by Grave Digger:
As far as all the negatives concerning the offense, keep this in mind about the 49ers defense. They have 4 All-Pro's from a year ago, 1 DL (Justin Smith), 2 ILB (Willis and Bowman), and 1 CB (Carlos Rogers). And they have a Pro Bowl Safety (Goldson) and another pretty good Safety in Whitner in addition to 2 other really good DL (McDonald, Sopoaga) and 2 OLBs that combined for 21 sacks in 2011 (Smith, Brooks). This isn't the Vikings defense we just played, it's probably the best defense in the NFL. Oh and the defense is coordinated by Dom Capers #2, the guy who was his DC for 2 different teams, Vic Fangio. So they have a collection of All-Pro players that are coordinated by a guy Dom Capers trusts to run his own defenses, did anyone really think our offense was going to light it up? If you thought that then it's your fault for having unrealistic expectations. And we still scored 22 against a D that only allowed 15 points/gamer last year.

I'm not satisfied with a loss, but we lost by 8 points to a well coached, disciplined team that is quite possibly the best in the NFL. Worse things have happened.

The difference between Slowik, Donnatell, and Sanders is that I can't remember them ever once out-coaching an opponent. And they had some really good players to work with. Nick Barnett in his prime, KGB, Kampman, McKenzie, Harris, Sharper, etc. They had the talent to compete. They were in over their heads, which is why not one of them is a coordinator at the NFL level right now. It was obvious they were in over their heads.

What's the scenario where I think a coordinator should be fired? When they're given the personnel to succeed and simply can't do it. If Capers had San Fran's personnel and this same thing happened with Kaep running wild, yeah that's unacceptable. That's not a talent issue.

GB has a talent issue on defense.

quote:

Originally posted by atticus:
Complete the picture. Where are the 2011 stats?

Much better, thus the wins. I do recall Mr Hanie looking pretty good for a while tho.

Interesting discussion. I think Capers is gone.
But here is a thought not being discussed a lot. SF had a really hot QB and wide-out. Most every pass he thru hit the receiver right in stride. He was unconscious. Add in a bunch of all pro healthy linemen and a top running back and GB was screwed. Sometimes in life the philosophy that says: Nothing is life is ever as great or poor as it seems. A better question might be on Saturday could they have beaten Seattle or Atlanta?

Grave Digger,wasn't it in 2002 when Ed Donatell whallopped the Super Bowl Champion Ravens on Monday Night Football? There was a case he outcoached somebody.

They stopped Dilfer?

Just like in Houston this season they were not supposed to win then either.

quote:

Originally posted by Grave Digger:
So he's facing an offense that no one else in the NFL runs to with this degree of success, run by a QB that he has never faced, and he's supposed to know which players will and won't be able to handle it? Handle something he doesn't even know what to expect? I agree you play the personnel that will be effective against what you expect to face, but what do you do when you don't what you're facing? Anyone want to know how many true 3-4 defenses Kaepernick had started against this season? 1. He started against Arizona. Now how is Capers suppose to know how SF's offense will attack a 3-4 based on one game against a really crap Arizona team?

...it is his job to anticipate every senerio and at least have a "counter" to go to if plan "A" isn't working. You pick an NFL or college DC who has faced it & pick their brain. You spend the offseason anticipating things like this. When what you thought would be successful fails, you try something else that you've done during the year......Capers did nothing....

quote:

Originally posted by ammo:
Just like in Houston this season they were not supposed to win then either.

...we won in Houston because Wade Phillips was stupid enough to play us man-to-man with only one saftey.

You can't watch tape of Colin Kaepernick at Nevada or call some bozo DC from the WAC and ask how he handled it. I mean I suppose you could, but what the heck good would that do? This is new. This is a new thing you're facing. This isn't Chris Ault's Nevada offense, this isn't Jim Harbaugh's Stanford offense, heck this isn't even the offense the 49ers ran the first 9 games of the season. What frame of reference is there for this? Yes Dom Capers knows what he's supposed to do against this style of offense in general, but you can't attack a Pistol Offense run by Colin Kaepernick like you would if RG3 or Cam Newton were running it. That's like saying you're going to attack Aaron Rodgers and Peyton Manning the same because it's the West Coast Offense and you can call up any old coach and ask how they would stop a WCO. That doesn't work. Every offense is unique and the only way to really develop a strong gameplan to beat it is by having film on it. 6 games worth of film watching Kaepernick attack a 43 isn't that helpful when you're running a 34. 1 game of film of him against a 34 where he didn't do half the things he did against the Packers is a major disadvantage.

Mike Nolan has the advantage of watching 6 games worth of film of Kaep starting against 43 defenses. He will have a stronger, more educated gameplan.

I think this is what Pikes meant **

vs SFO - Jan 13 2013 45 pts 579 yds
vs NYG - Jan 15 2012 37 pts 420 yds
vs ARI - Jan 10 20120 51 pts 531 yds

The problem isn't that we get beat in the playoffs by good teams now and then. The problem is the pattern of complete defensive collapse as shown above. Embarassing!

quote:

Originally posted by Grave Digger:
What's the scenario where I think a coordinator should be fired? When they're given the personnel to succeed and simply can't do it. If Capers had San Fran's personnel and this same thing happened with Kaep running wild, yeah that's unacceptable. That's not a talent issue.

GB has a talent issue on defense.

I hear what you're saying about the lack of talent and need to upgrade. But it seems like you might as well sign Dom Capers to a life contract if you think he can't really be accountable until they have personnel comparable to SF.

I struggle to think of any time since the Lombardi era where the Packers had that kind of talent on defense -- you're talking about great safeties, a very good cornerback in Rodgers, stud LBs, a premier pass rusher, and the best guy at doing all the dirty work.

While I'd love that talent too, I'm not comfortable giving Capers a free pass until we (or if we) ever get that kind of talent. In my opinion, while there are definitely some holes on this defense, there's also enough talent with CM III, Raji, Pickett, Burnett, Shields/Williams, etc. to be more competitive than they've been at times.

To me he's shown what he can do when he has the talent. When the players are firing on all cylinders, he can out-coach anyone. I'm not giving him a lifetime contract, but get some guys healthy, give him a real ILB to pair with Bish, and give him a real Safety. If you get him the tools and he fails, then yeah he's past his prime. I don't think he will fail with more talent though.

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:
Didn't we all know this offense was going to be run by the Niners? Ummm, newsflash...I DID! So why didn't our coaching staff? Something isn't right here.

Yeah you know the name and the concept. You even know that Kaepernick can run, Gore is a stud, and Crabtree is a playmaker. That's not a gameplan though. You don't know how Kaepernick will react to the playoffs, you don't know how he will react to some of the looks the Packers D will give, you don't know where he likes to go with the ball in certain situations, etc. You don't know how Greg Roman likes to attack a 34, you don't know who they like to run behind, where they will go with the ball in certain situations, what can and can't Kaepernick do, etc. There's a ton of stuff they take into account that simply wasn't available to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Pakrz:
They stopped Dilfer?

It was a Sunday game on CBS in 2001. They shut down Elvis Grbac and Terry Allen (Jamal Lewis was on IR). A 38 year old Randall Cunningham came into the game late and got a couple quick TDs to pull within 8 points. It was a terrible effort by the defense against one of the NFL's worst offenses that year. It's ridiculous that someone remembers that as a big game for Donatell. What made that game great was how dominant Ahman Green, William Henderson (he absolutely owned Ray Lewis, when he was at his peak) and the offensive line were. If the Ravens had recovered the onside kick or Billick had put Cunningham in earlier, the Packers would have lost.

quote:

It was a terrible effort by the defense against one of the NFL's worst offenses that year. It's ridiculous that someone remembers that as a big game for Donatell.

Right I remember that game for how well our offense played but the defense was ok up until the very end.

That game & the game in New England (before Billy B built his DVD collection) with Bryant Westbrook at DB was pretty much Mike Shermans shining star.

It's still my opinion that a defense that includes Walden/Jones/Hawk is going to be exploited by a team that has the kind of weapons SF has on offense. You can move them around, change the scheme, try and help them out. But SF is going to find them and target them and probably have success given their limitations.

Having said that, if the players on defense have lost all confidence in Capers and don't feel he's agressive enough or willing to at least try and adjust on the fly, that's another story. Huge decision MM is going to have to make.

Just re-watched the first half of the Packers/Niners Divisional game.

Brad Jones, AJ Hawk and Erik Walden were terrible. All three must go.

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:

quote:

It was a terrible effort by the defense against one of the NFL's worst offenses that year. It's ridiculous that someone remembers that as a big game for Donatell.

Right I remember that game for how well our offense played but the defense was ok up until the very end.

That game & the game in New England (before Billy B built his DVD collection) with Bryant Westbrook at DB was pretty much Mike Shermans shining star.

The 2001 defense had good players, but what happened when Randall Cunningham came into the game only illustrated how bad of a DC Ed Donatell was. Even though Cunningham was completely washed up by that point, Ed had no answer for him. If the Ravens recovered the onside kick or Cunningham came in earlier, Donatell would have lost the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Pack-Man:

quote:

Originally posted by Pakrz:
They stopped Dilfer?

It was a Sunday game on CBS in 2001. They shut down Elvis Grbac and Terry Allen (Jamal Lewis was on IR). A 38 year old Randall Cunningham came into the game late and got a couple quick TDs to pull within 8 points. It was a terrible effort by the defense against one of the NFL's worst offenses that year. It's ridiculous that someone remembers that as a big game for Donatell. What made that game great was how dominant Ahman Green, William Henderson (he absolutely owned Ray Lewis, when he was at his peak) and the offensive line were. If the Ravens had recovered the onside kick or Billick had put Cunningham in earlier, the Packers would have lost.

....the thing that stands out to me from my memory of that game was that the gameplan (and William Henderson) made Ray Lewis turn into the invisable man.

quote:

Originally posted by Sep:
Just re-watched the first half of the Packers/Niners Divisional game.

Brad Jones, AJ Hawk and Erik Walden were terrible. All three must go.

The real quality veiwing is coming up!

quote:

Originally posted by Pack-Man:

quote:

Originally posted by Pakrz:
They stopped Dilfer?

It was a Sunday game on CBS in 2001. They shut down Elvis Grbac and Terry Allen (Jamal Lewis was on IR). A 38 year old Randall Cunningham came into the game late and got a couple quick TDs to pull within 8 points. It was a terrible effort by the defense against one of the NFL's worst offenses that year. It's ridiculous that someone remembers that as a big game for Donatell. What made that game great was how dominant Ahman Green, William Henderson (he absolutely owned Ray Lewis, when he was at his peak) and the offensive line were. If the Ravens had recovered the onside kick or Billick had put Cunningham in earlier, the Packers would have lost.

I was at that game and the defense played pretty well but what was really amazing was watching up close KGB fire out of his stance in an absolute blur and how a behemoth like Jonathan Ogden would come out of his stance with amazing fluidity and shadow him whichever way he turned.

The offense just gutted that great Ravens defense that day with surgical precision.

quote:

Originally posted by Pikes Peak:

quote:

Originally posted by Sep:
Just re-watched the first half of the Packers/Niners Divisional game.

Brad Jones, AJ Hawk and Erik Walden were terrible. All three must go.

The real quality veiwing is coming up!

Ha, yeah. I think I'm going to skip the second half.

quote:

Originally posted by Sep:
Just re-watched the first half of the Packers/Niners Divisional game.

Brad Jones, AJ Hawk and Erik Walden were terrible. All three must go.

Brad Jones is decent depth & Special Teams.

I'm fine with axeing Hawk & Walden

All the talk about axing LBs... and where are the replacements going to come from? It's not like there's a lot of great LBs walking around the streets today. And we see that coming in from college and expecting to pick up the complicated defensive schemes of the pros is not easy. So, if we axe those guys, what do we do to replace them? Or, should we keep them for depth?

In November McGinn wrote how Walden was due for a raise/extension. My guess is he is back in GB next season as a back-up to Perry.

I've been a Hawk supporter, but he never got better, so Hawk, redo or buh-bye. Since he took a pay-cut once already I'd guess he'll say cut me Mick.

Jones, after making the switch inside, is good depth - as Boris noted. Hell, he was their 3rd option at ILB when Bishop and then Smith went down. Bishop and Jone is better than Bishop and Hawk, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:
I was at that game and the defense played pretty well but what was really amazing was watching up close KGB fire out of his stance in an absolute blur and how a behemoth like Jonathan Ogden would come out of his stance with amazing fluidity and shadow him whichever way he turned.

The offense just gutted that great Ravens defense that day with surgical precision.

Yes, they played well against Elvis Grbac and Terry Allen with the gameplan that was prepared over the course of the week. Once old man Cunningham came in and the Ravens' stragegy changed, Donatell was thrown for a loop, and they had to fight to hang on to win against what was still a very bad offense.

quote:

Originally posted by Hungry5:
Jones, after making the switch inside, is good depth - as Boris noted. Hell, he was their 3rd option at ILB when Bishop and then Smith went down. Bishop and Jone is better than Bishop and Hawk, IMO.

It's important to note, as you and Boris both have, that Jones is a third-stringer. But he's a serious liability when he has to actually play. I'd prefer them draft a guy with upside and develop him, rather than hold on to a guy who's not going to get any better.

I think Jones and Hawk are probably equally worthless. Hawk can't shed a block for his life, and Jones seems to completely lack awareness.

So Jones would be perfect for internet message boards?

Capers did a very good job with the 2010 defense, but that group ain't coming around again anytime soon. Jenkins was a beast, Raji and Williams had career seasons, Matthews and Bishop were terrific, Woodson and Pickett were two years younger and Collins was having another Pro Bowl season.

The Packers need a DC who can slow down quality offenses with lesser talent, and IMO, Capers hasn't shown even the slightest ability to do that. That's why a change needs to be made.