grignon posted:I can't imagine what Lions fans think.
That’s what’s great about Lions fans; they don’t think too much of themselves. They don’t snort their own fart juice like Vajqueen dickheads or talk out of their assholes like Bears fans.
Got to love Lions fans. They remind me of Browns fans that way.
The Lions have fans? 
Lion fans seem pretty optimistic this year. Think Mike Daniels calling Matt Patrica a genius has something to do with it.
Trophies posted:Dude, ICGAF. Just sharing some thoughts on the team. Nevermind.
First time on x4?
As far as the genius of clearing cap space. So you mean a new GM replacing an old GM isn't going to make moves to realign a roster with the lack of moves being what got the previous GM fired? Go ahead and look at Ryan Pace or whatever new GM and see how they cleared cap space and players.
Outside of Daniels, a lot of these cap moves were no brainers and we knew they were coming. Common sense isn't genius.
Your hyperbole and over use of stats is going to make you sad. Why not try "I really like what Googlykunst is doing" instead of "OH MY GAWD! THE NEW GM TOOK A SHIT AND IT'S THE MOST AMAZING, GENIUS SHIT EVER!!!"
Positive is fine. David Koresh positive will get you called out. People call shit out here. Back it up and you're fine.
x4, not for pussies.
GFYH. Touchy, touchy, touchy. Was that just bubbling up inside you all night?
Chorizo burritos will do that to a guy...
...so will a healthy dose of sifting through rah-rah BS.
Probably the burritos though.
If sifting thru rah-rah BS is going to have such a negative reaction for someone, what kind of aloha is gonna choose to sift thru rah-rah BS?
Rah-rah is BS, if that's all there is - with no substance... PAKRZ, I consider that a misrepresentation. And Henry, you can go F yourself. I've backed everything that I've said up. Funny thing, is you say nothing, nothing of substance. Hey, there is an ignore button. Just gotta press it.
Yes, I called out Gutekunst and his staff for the Savage, Summers, Keke, Dexter Williams selections, Nijman, Shepherd UDFA signings. Yeah, I liked what they saw in Elgton Jenkins, Ka'Dar Hollman, Tony Brown... A FB? REALLY? Danny Vitale????? No one uses a FB anymore!!!! Funny, he goes down and we immediately sign another. Mike Daniels??? Oh, .... never mind. Tossed my insanely early 53 based on info I had found. I've backed it all up with info. Excuse me for being passionate about my team, a fanatic. Isn't that what "fans" are? Isn't this a fan forum?
Might as well just wait to see what happens. Who cares what happens in preseason, at practices? Who cares about the bottom of the roster? UDFAs? Why did they let the guy go? Half the people here pounding their chests asking that question as a retort hate when they are given the answer. Won't know a damn thing till the real bullets fly. Uh-huh.... Nothing to talk about here.
Fedya posted:The Lions have fans?
I know some. They are pretty low profile for sure. Mainly they like to reminisce about Barry Sanders, talk hopefully pre-season and complain about their own team once the season starts. They're generally bearable.
grignon posted:"I'm just saying it is impressive what Gutekunst has done in two to date."
To date he's assembled a 6-9-1 team. He appears unattached to player from the previous regime. I'm hopeful he will be as cold blooded with his own mistakes.
I hope they're better this year. Bears fans think the Bears are better. Minnesota fans think the Vikings are better. I can't imagine what Lions fans think. But no one has achieved anything yet this year.
Exactly- the bottom line is winning and he hasn't accomplished that yet. The verdict is still very much out on him. He spent a third round pick on Oren Burks (a guy who many had ranked as a 6th round talent) and he gave up three picks for Savage which seems way to steep of a price (hope I'm wrong on that), and he gave away a first round pick (granted Randall was a headcase but he has starter talent) for basically nothing.
I hope he's the greatest GM of all time but he hasn't accomplished anything yet.
Somebody is going to have a case of the sads.
13X, I get that Gutes hasn't won a SB yet, and if that is the measure, you're right. But, the guy has accomplished quite a lot in a short amount of time, don't you think?
That was part of my bigger point. Thinking an instant turn around could have happened is dreaming. There were a huge number of problems with the 7-9 team he inherited in 2018. McCarthy had mishandled his team and staff. Giant contracts had to be addressed +/- to keep the team moving forward. Our secondary was a shambles. Our pass rush was non-existent. Our WR group was nearly impossible to maintain, and their effectiveness was slipping. Our OL had zero depth. Seems a lot of that has changed, no?
Are you noticing the subtle differences? We saw a team, nearly all 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string players prepared and ready to take the field. First big play was a TO on STs for a TD? I didn't know what to expect from LaFleur in terms of leadership, but he's made some surprising, impressive moves, and displayed his leadership of this team over the last few weeks on a number of occasions. Do you disagree?
When was the last time you saw a McCarthy run team that ready?
I mean, what do you want? Dude can't win a SB before he plays his first game. Calling out Gutekunst for taking Burks, who tore his pec, seems misguided. How about looking at the depth that took over behind him? That's meaningless? Let's sew what we have got, and how Gutekunst addresses that.
Trophies posted:Grignon,
To date he’s done much more than that. Which players are you referring to exactly? Matthews, Cobb, Daniels, Perry, Spriggs, Randall, Burnett, Clinton-Dix, Nelson, Hundley, Montgomery had to have been difficult decisions, Nelson & Matthews possibly his biggest. Each and every one of them a difficult value and cap decision. Have you looked at what their cap figures were?
Cold blooded? He was a part of the personnel team that brought all of those players here. Gutekunst started as a scout for Thompson in 1998.
He inherited a 7-9 team, with enormous cap issues and underperforming players. He ushered in Aaron Rodgers’ new deal.
He cleared more that $90M off of our cap to help make that happen, while restocking his team with the best value players he could find.
5 players accounted for over 30% of our 2017 cap, none of them named Rodgers.
Matthews 15M Cobb 12.7 Nelson 11.5 Daniels 10.1 Burnett 7. Altogether those five cost more than $55M.
The full 2017 cap listing is wild:
This is bean counting every GM is required to do. There is no evidence yet that his approach to team building is a successful one. It's not a failure yet, either. But success is only measured on the scoreboard. Even the "Executive of the Year" award goes to a winning team's GM, not the one with the most cap room or nicest balance sheet.
Trophies posted:13X, I get that Gutes hasn't won a SB yet,
Hasn't made the playoffs yet.
Hasn't had a winning season yet.
Hasn't had a .500 season yet.
Excuse me while I wait a bit on crowning this guy for anything. I like that we are no longer afraid to sign free agents. I like how he's constantly churning the bottom of roster instead of holding onto turds. I hope the drafting improves to the point where we don't have to rely so much on free agents. Give this regime a couple of more years to actually prove something worthy of praise or ridicule.
I know that, Grignon. Just saying I like what he's done so far. Pretty simple. We will see.
Look, I didn't start this mess. It is one of the things I dislike about "forums" - the marauder crew. Every forum has one. Instead of offering, they take. Been posting with yourself, Henry and most on here and in other forums for decades. I'm just of the view the BS can be so unnecessary and detrimental. I enjoy the fun like anyone else, but lines can be easily crossed.
PackerHawk posted:Trophies posted:13X, I get that Gutes hasn't won a SB yet,
Hasn't made the playoffs yet.
Hasn't had a winning season yet.
Hasn't had a .500 season yet.
Excuse me while I wait a bit on crowning this guy for anything. I like that we are no longer afraid to sign free agents. I like how he's constantly churning the bottom of roster instead of holding onto turds. I hope the drafting improves to the point where we don't have to rely so much on free agents. Give this regime a couple of more years to actually prove something worthy of praise or ridicule.
Who is crowning the guy as anything? Hawk! I mean, come on!
Seriously! All I said was:
"I'm amazed at the talent infusion over two offseasons. I haven't seen that kind of thing in GB, maybe ever.
Gutekunst seems to have a gift for finding talent, and value."
WTF is wrong with that?
Trophies posted:13X, I get that Gutes hasn't won a SB yet, and if that is the measure, you're right. But, the guy has accomplished quite a lot in a short amount of time, don't you think?
That was part of my bigger point. Thinking an instant turn around could have happened is dreaming. There were a huge number of problems with the 7-9 team he inherited in 2018. McCarthy had mishandled his team and staff. Giant contracts had to be addressed +/- to keep the team moving forward. Our secondary was a shambles. Our pass rush was non-existent. Our WR group was nearly impossible to maintain, and their effectiveness was slipping. Our OL had zero depth. Seems a lot of that has changed, no?
Are you noticing the subtle differences? We saw a team, nearly all 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string players prepared and ready to take the field. First big play was a TO on STs for a TD? I didn't know what to expect from LaFleur in terms of leadership, but he's made some surprising, impressive moves, and displayed his leadership of this team over the last few weeks on a number of occasions. Do you disagree?
When was the last time you saw a McCarthy run team that ready?
I mean, what do you want? Dude can't win a SB before he plays his first game. Calling out Gutekunst for taking Burks, who tore his pec, seems misguided. How about looking at the depth that took over behind him? That's meaningless? Let's sew what we have got, and how Gutekunst addresses that.
I do like the direction the team is going and yes McCarthy sucked for a LONG time and a change was clearly needed there and I'm glad Brian G did something about and I like that he's decisive and it appears that the country club culture with Thompson and MM is long gone.
The Burks pick has always been questionable and was considered a huge reach. It has nothing to do with Burks recent injury. It's about drafting a guy in the 3rd round that could likely have been drafted in the 5th or 6th. And our depth at ILB is nonexistent. High hopes for Summers sure but he is a 7th rounder who cant cover. The rest are scrub free agents. We have one legit ILB and if he goes down we are in BIG trouble.
I also wasn't impressed with their performance last week. We were consistently outplayed.
Well... way too early to grade the 18 draft but I'm not feeling optimistic. So far I give The Gute a big fat C. As in, wait and see.
I loved the move to land both Alexander and Jackson, but cannot believe we drafted a punter and freaking long snapper. Those two picks, 5th and 7th, led to below average for net and average. We all thought some bodies on the oline in those spots would have been useful.
Hate the Gary pick.... We shall C,
The world is littered with 3rd round picks that didn't work. Hybrid players at LB were premium to some Defenses, and have been since Buchanon and Shazier were drafted. Changes draft value depending on the analyst.
Former S that ranges with speed, size, coverage abilities. Had 21 PDs and 5 INTs at Vanderbilt. I get what your are saying, and he might not have been what I wanted at that pick either. But... we needed a LB who could cover the middle, and those #s coming into the draft are pretty impressive for an ILB.
Hey, I never thought the light went on with Burks either.
I totally agree that Gute hasn't accomplished anything yet and to me the verdict is out on him but it is going to take a little time to right the ship.
Why I say that is Gute inherited a team that was terribly thin at many positions and was an outright freaking dumpster fire on defense, the OL had no depth, and I would bet that the team was stale and they desperately needed a breath of fresh air.
As for preseason I personally have never really cared about it because I think of it as nothing more than a controlled practice.
Boris posted:1 pre-season game, which they won I might add, and "consistently outplayed"
Consider the context. Trophies was talking about how well they played LAST week. I was referring to last week's game where we played a bunch of backups.
...with a bunch of backups. Whatever, it's preseason, and yeah, I thought it was encouraging they all looked ready, for the most part. I completely disagree that we were consistently outplayed. I thought it was the inverse, until late. But that's your take.
Maybe consistently outplayed is a little pessimistic. I didn't think they looked great but the starters weren't playing for the most part. I would sure hope they would win getting 5 turnovers. Like you said, it's backups. A lot of football coming up and hopefully we will all be happy with where we are at.
Trophies posted:PackerHawk posted:Trophies posted:13X, I get that Gutes hasn't won a SB yet,
Hasn't made the playoffs yet.
Hasn't had a winning season yet.
Hasn't had a .500 season yet.
Excuse me while I wait a bit on crowning this guy for anything. I like that we are no longer afraid to sign free agents. I like how he's constantly churning the bottom of roster instead of holding onto turds. I hope the drafting improves to the point where we don't have to rely so much on free agents. Give this regime a couple of more years to actually prove something worthy of praise or ridicule.
Who is crowning the guy as anything? Hawk! I mean, come on!
Seriously! All I said was:
"I'm amazed at the talent infusion over two offseasons. I haven't seen that kind of thing in GB, maybe ever.
Gutekunst seems to have a gift for finding talent, and value."
WTF is wrong with that?
WTF is wrong with that? Lets take a peek into the past....
In 1992, Green Bay added Brett Favre, Frank Winters, Robert Brooks, Edgar Bennett, Mark Chmura and Ty Detmer to the roster.
In 1993, Green Bay added Reggie White, Mike Prior, Wayne Simmons, George Teague, Earl Dotson, Mark Brunell and Doug Evans to the roster.
In two years, Green Bay added two HOF football players and multiple core players that were key to their success and domination of the NFL for many years. In fact, one could argue that 1992 to 1993 set the groundwork for the success Green Bay has enjoyed from that point up until now. Winning tradition and all..
So, WTF is wrong with that? Nothing, except that it's misguided, dumb and completely wrong.
Have you tried chorizo burritos? Not as good as Sonoran hotdogs but they certainly get the job done.
Well, that's why I threw the "maybe" qualifier... well done. Of course, like anything, we will have to just wait and see what happens. It is not misguided, not dumb, and your calling it completely wrong is premature.
Hindsight is bliss, considering what we are talking about here. Yeah, Winters in 1992, Reggie White in 1993 along with Prior & Galbreath.... those were significant FA adds, or turned out to be historically, as was Favre via trade.
Buckley a 1st round pick, Brooks a 3rd round pick, Bennett a 4th, Chmura a 6th, Detmer a 9th in 1992. Simmons R1, Teague R2, Dotson R3, Brunell R4, Evans R6 in 1993. Btw, Teague didn't do a lot. Played for DAL in 1996. Brooks was injured and played just 7 games in 1996. Mike Prior was a backup S. I loved Doug Evans, but there you go, a 6th Round pick... Guess getting high on adding him to Packers roster then would have been dumb, misguided... blah blah blah.
If you were on the JSO forum then, I guess we could have been having the same discussions...
Ron Wolf and the Packers brought back the Lombardi in 1996 season. That's 4 seasons after the 1993 offseason. It's all relative. I wonder how much leash some of you will give Gutekunst to put it all together?
Optimist or Pessimist, it's been refreshing to watch all of the moves Gute has made. Especially after watching the previous GM take years to fix a position(safety), see the depth badly depleted, or have terrible players(Demetri Goodson) languish on the roster. New HC, OC, re-built defense with over half of the starters being new. Re-tooled OL at Guard and added some impressive depth...Using all avenues to improve.
Both Safeties are bad or big pussies(Dix) - rebuilt . OLB are old and shitty - rebuilt. OG is weak spot on OL - rebuilt. Rebuilding CB through draft and FA, etc...On top of moving on from a stagnant offense and HC, some things to get excited about.
Finished product ? TBD. But damn fun to talk about all of the new gear.
Then there is Jack Vainisi. Dang, he died of a heart attack in 1960 at 33. I knew he died young, but didn't know that young. One of his drafts netted 3 HoF'ers - 1958 class, Taylor, Nitschke, and Kramer.
Imagine if Lombardi had Vainisi during his time in Green Bay.
Totally agree Dog.
I agree as well. if it turns out great or it turns out bad at least Gute has been uber aggressive and constantly working on making the team better. It would suck if he fails but at least he would go down swinging.
Packdog posted:Optimist or Pessimist, it's been refreshing to watch all of the moves Gute has made. Especially after watching the previous GM take years to fix a position(safety), see the depth badly depleted, or have terrible players(Demetri Goodson) languish on the roster. New HC, OC, re-built defense with over half of the starters being new. Re-tooled OL at Guard and added some impressive depth...Using all avenues to improve.
Something else Gutenheimer is doing that Ted wasn't willing to do, move on from players who have proven they are sucking swamp water before their contracts are up.
From Jason Spriggs to HHCD to Quinten Rollins to Ty Montgomery and even Nick Perry with a fat salary cap hit, he's more than proven to be willing to cut the dead weight and move the fu** on.
Contrast that with Ted. Guys like DaTone Jones and a slew of other draft picks could seemingly hang on forever fully knowing no matter how much they under performed, if it was a Ted chick he drafted, you weren't going anywhere. And also gone is a former HC in MM who was an excuse machine for guys like Perry and HHCD who continued to underwhelm game after game.
New sheriff, new regime. Nice to have all this fresh air.
Pakrz posted:Trophies posted:So, WTF is wrong with that? Nothing, except that it's misguided, dumb and completely wrong.
Have you tried chorizo burritos? Not as good as Sonoran hotdogs but they certainly get the job done.
Well, give the guy a break. His memory is clearly a little foggy. He recently reminded us of the time the Cards came from like a million games behind at the All Star break because Nigher Morgan said bad stuff about Albert Pujols.
Which... happened.
"I didn't know anything was going on until I heard Albert," he said. "I'm not concerned about it to be honest with you. ... I'm not going to play his game. There's a certain way to compete and a certain way not to compete. [Morgan] competes hard but he does it in a different manner, which is unfortunate because it takes away from what kind of player he is. He is a really good player."
"I actually like that guy," Pujols said. "I don't mind having a guy like that on my team. He brings a lot of energy to the ballclub, and you want to have a guy like that. But sometimes I think he goes [a little overboard] and tries to put too much energy. I remember when he came up with Pittsburgh, the guy just played the game, played hard all the time, never talks. And now you wonder why he's been on three different ballclubs the last year and a half, you know?"
The Cardinals were 8.5 back of the Brewers on September 8th, 2011. Here is Carpenter joking about it after they won the WS, that following May...
packerboi posted:Packdog posted:Optimist or Pessimist, it's been refreshing to watch all of the moves Gute has made. Especially after watching the previous GM take years to fix a position(safety), see the depth badly depleted, or have terrible players(Demetri Goodson) languish on the roster. New HC, OC, re-built defense with over half of the starters being new. Re-tooled OL at Guard and added some impressive depth...Using all avenues to improve.
Something else Gutenheimer is doing that Ted wasn't willing to do, move on from players who have proven they are sucking swamp water before their contracts are up.
From Jason Spriggs to HHCD to Quinten Rollins to Ty Montgomery and even Nick Perry with a fat salary cap hit, he's more than proven to be willing to cut the dead weight and move the fu** on.
Contrast that with Ted. Guys like DaTone Jones and a slew of other draft picks could seemingly hang on forever fully knowing no matter how much they under performed, if it was a Ted chick he drafted, you weren't going anywhere. And also gone is a former HC in MM who was an excuse machine for guys like Perry and HHCD who continued to underwhelm game after game.
New sheriff, new regime. Nice to have all this fresh air.
This is spot on. Ted and Mike's country club is gone. Thank Gawd!!!!
Trophies posted:Which... happened.
The Cardinals were 8.5 back of the Brewers on September 8th, 2011. Here is Carpenter joking about it after they won the WS, that following May...
8.5 games back then ended the season 6 games back. Wow, that was devastating.
Biggest change, IMO, is Director of Football Operations. Last year it was Russ Ball, '16-'17 it was Eliot Wolf, '13-'15 it was Ted Thompson. Who was it prior to that? '08-'09 it was John Schneider, '10-'11 it was Reggie McKenzie, and '12 it was John Dorsey. It can't be a coincidence that we lost 3 highly talented personnel guys and we saw some serious drop off in talent acquisition. TT tried to take on that role himself then passed it on to Wolf and then it went to Ball. That's a pretty crappy run for a job that is meant to be, IMO, a GM-lite role that takes pressure off the GM with scouting and pro-personnel. I don't know if Hendrickson is going to be the next great personnel guy from GB or what, but I know he's experienced with a quality FO (Baltimore) and he's better than his previous 3 predecessors in that role. That alone will help Gute and our talent acquisition a lot.
1) Be better than last year in points allowed & turnovers created. More QB pressures/sacks
2) stay healthy, did you hear that Kevin King?
3) Win some games when the offense is off it’s game.
4) Have at least one Pro Bowler.
Pistol GB posted:Fedya posted:The Lions have fans?
I know some. They are pretty low profile for sure. Mainly they like to reminisce about Barry Sanders, talk hopefully pre-season and complain about their own team once the season starts. They're generally bearable.
For what it's worth, I miss Lionheart.
Fedya posted:Pistol GB posted:Fedya posted:The Lions have fans?
I know some. They are pretty low profile for sure. Mainly they like to reminisce about Barry Sanders, talk hopefully pre-season and complain about their own team once the season starts. They're generally bearable.
For what it's worth, I miss Lionheart.
Agreed. I feel sorry for Lions fans. In the last 27 years they've had a HOF, Top-5 all time RB and a HOFer, Top-10 all time WR and future HOFer, yet have not won a single playoff game.
packerboi posted:Packdog posted:Optimist or Pessimist, it's been refreshing to watch all of the moves Gute has made. Especially after watching the previous GM take years to fix a position(safety), see the depth badly depleted, or have terrible players(Demetri Goodson) languish on the roster. New HC, OC, re-built defense with over half of the starters being new. Re-tooled OL at Guard and added some impressive depth...Using all avenues to improve.
Something else Gutenheimer is doing that Ted wasn't willing to do, move on from players who have proven they are sucking swamp water before their contracts are up.
From Jason Spriggs to HHCD to Quinten Rollins to Ty Montgomery and even Nick Perry with a fat salary cap hit, he's more than proven to be willing to cut the dead weight and move the fu** on.
Contrast that with Ted. Guys like DaTone Jones and a slew of other draft picks could seemingly hang on forever fully knowing no matter how much they under performed, if it was a Ted chick he drafted, you weren't going anywhere. And also gone is a former HC in MM who was an excuse machine for guys like Perry and HHCD who continued to underwhelm game after game.
New sheriff, new regime. Nice to have all this fresh air.
The difference is Gute’s getting rid of Ted’s overpriced deadweight, which is what most new GMs do. Ted did the same thing when he came to Green Bay.
Hopefully Gute will have the same success that Ted had early in his tenure. And hopefully Gute will learn from Ted’s mistakes and be willing to part ways with his own draft picks if/when they don’t live up to expectations.
