NOT CAPERS FAULT!

I don't blame Capers for players missing tackles and blowing assignments. But I do think his philosophy clashes with Thompson's, because Capers' scheme seemingly requires veteran understanding of a system, but Thompson perennially provides one of the the league's youngest teams.

 

When did the marriage work best? When veterans like Cullen Jenkins, Nick Collins and Charles Woodson balanced out the younger guys. It's not Capers' fault those guys haven't been replaced in both experience and talent. Right now the veteran leadership on defense is a bit thin, especially when their top talent (Matthews) has missed 9 regular season games the last two years. 

       
       


I'm not sure you understand what the devil I'm talking about.

Just want to throw this out there.  After all the slurping about how great the SF defense is under Vic Fangio.  Here is his history:

 

Team          Defensive Rank

1995 Car          7

1996 Car         10

1997 Car          15

1998 Car          30

1999 Ind          15

2000 Ind         21

2001 Ind          29

2002 Hou         16

2003 Hou          31

2004 Hou          23

2005 Hou          31

2011 SF          4

2012 SF          3

2013 SF         5

 

Fangio gets a lot of credit for the 49ers defense.  But as you can see by the career numbers.  If he has not had the bullets, his gun has also been shooting blanks. 

 

I also find it ironic that Fangio came from Capers school.

Based on past performance, I wanted Capers gone after last year. SF starts their last drive today with what? 5:40-some on the clock and we don't see the ball again? Yes, Hyde drops the potential game-winner, but we also gave up rushing first downs and then no edge containment again and off goes K-Dink for the win. The Bears the first time we play them hold the ball for over 9 minutes to end the game? The Vikings march down the field in OT to tie us when all we needed was one lousy stop for the win? It has just gotten old and is the same over and over again. If Capers can't figure it out, if it's a bad marriage, if it's whatever, then end it and put everyone out of their misery. It's not like we haven't given Capers a chance to correct the ship.

 

BTW, I mentioned Horton several days ago as a DC replacement. Now he's being interviewed by the Queens as HC. If he doesn't get it, I say we kick Capers to the curb and at least interview the guy. 

In 2009, the Packers defense was one of the best in the league: yards, points and TOs.  Over the next 4 seasons, they lose Nick Collins (career injury), Charles Woodson(age) , Nick Barnett (not 3-4), Cullen Jenkins (FA, not re-signed) and Johnny Jolly (suspension). 

 

Here's some of the defensive players drafted since 2010: Neal, Burnett, Wilson, House, DJ Smith, Perry, Hayward, Worthy, Daniels, McMillan, Manning, Jones, Hyde, Boyd, Palmer.

 

Who in that group is even close to playing anywhere near the guys they lost?????

 

The players highlighted have shown potential, but have either been injured or inconsistent or both.  Jolly was playing well and was missed today, but who knows if he'll ever play again.  I don't think TT has done a very good job of replacing the players lost above with the exception of maybe Barnett since he was average when he left.

 

That's almost 1/2 the D.  TT needs to draft on that side of the ball better or hope for better luck re: injuries.

 

 

EDIT:  And throw in the inconsistent and/or poor play of Raji the last two seasons.  The sh!tty Raji this year replaced the decent Raji from a few years ago.

From my reading of the tea leafs Capers will not be the Packers defensive coordinator next year. Dom refuses to comment if he has a contract for next year. The local media is talking an writing story critical of Dom, they may have some knowledge of what the Packers Brain trust is thinking.

If Capers is done as the defensive coordinator I do not think the Packers want to redo their defensive coaching staff.  That means they will not bring in an outsider who will want to have his own guys as coaches. If Capers is replace  the new coach will come from an  internal promotion or someone who is already  very close to the current defensive coaching staff.

In short they do not want to replace their defense  but find someone who can get more out of the current players and coaches.

Which defensive coach got "more out of his players" in said unit.  The D-line has been inconsistent with often no pass rush.  The LBs can't blitz (save CM III) and have trouble in coverage.  The Safeties have been horrendous and the DBs in general seem to have difficulty being in the right position.

 

Which current assistant coach deserves a promotion.  Becuse none of the units shine regularly and more players seem to have regressed over the years than showed significant improvement.

 

I don't care if they fire Dom, but I hope they have a replacement in mind.  And I hope some of their high draft picks start performing like high draft picks.  Can't afford to keep missing on these guys on defense.

If I'm MM, I'm tired of fighting to get a lead or a tie only to see my defense give up a score immediately after. The offense has been fighting an uphill battle all year. They do something good, our defense gives it right back and then we have to fight for it all over again. It has to be tiring for MM to constantly work down the field only to then see the other team come out and cut through us like butter. 

 

Right now, I want Capers gone because he's the guy who calls and designs the schemes with the guys we have. Bring in a new guy who can design and scheme with the players we have, not the ones he wishes he had. The new guy can evaluate the jobs of the assistants. Get a better picture which of our coaches are worth hanging on to and which can hit the road with Capers. 

If it's not Clay's decision that he didn't play, then why blame the DC?  Capers is doing his best with what he's got. 

If the Packers fire Dom, then they need to bring someone in; otherwise,  we get no significant change in defense.  

Not flaming you, GD, but our O-line play was generally poor. Considering the variables in this year (the switch, Bulaga injury, Barclay's first year as a starter, playing a rookie at LT, etc.), their performance was admirable. But we saw again today when they are matched against a powerful front 7, their deficiencies are exposed rather quickly.

I don't have a lot of confidence in Campen personally. Even though he hasn't really ever had full use of his arsenal, and has had to deal with some bad players, I can't see that he's done anything with the guys that have played. Pass pro is still a jailbreak more often than not, and run blocking is inconsistent, at best.

Ditto for Slocum. KO and punt coverage/returns are the most basic elements of football, and doesn't require the learning that offensive and defensive positions do. IOW, you don't need 11 Pro Bowlers to have effective ST play. Masthay and Bush have saved him consistently, and Hyde was a good returner this year, but I still see more bad than good otherwise.

Hey beef, are you Caper's agent or son?

Packers 1 and done 4 out of 5 years in the playoffs with Capers.

Arizona 2009: 51 points. 531 yards.

 

NY 2011: 37 points. 420 yards. 6.9 per play

 

San Fran 2012: 45 points. 579 yards. 7.7 per play

 

San Fran on Sunday in conditions that favored the defenses: 23 points. 381 total yards. 29+ minutes of possession with 5+ of that coming on a game winning, clock eating drive that featured all the Packers defensive warts

 

This after an "emphasis" on defense through the draft and, by their own admission, the 49ers and their biceped assassin.

 

Feel free to spin away.

And yet, with that very same defense, and all our horses, (Woodson in his prime, still had Collins, Jenkins, Barnett and Jolly), we lost to the Cardinals 51-45 in the playoffs.

 

So even when we had all our best players, Capers was incapable of stopping a high powered offense.

 

I got flamed for starting a thread that Capers needed to go a few years ago. I still say he needs to go. The clock is ticking on Rodgers. If we get a new DC now, and hit on the next few drafts, we'll have a legit defense, and Aaron will have a 2-3 year window in his prime that we can make a serious run at the Super Bowl. 

Don't forget about the game in Pittsburgh in '09 when Big Ben went for over 500 yards. That defense failed spectacularly against the better QBs that year.

 

Offense needed to put up more points and can't specifically blame the defense but it's time for a change. 

We weren't one and done in 2012. We lost the divisional playoff game against San Francisco after beating Minnesota in the first round. 

Wade Phillips is available if you're interested:

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_...x_cid=espnapi_public

Congrats on your win Armored. Now go beat the Hags.

 

 

No thanks. Looks like you've done plenty of that already

GB needs to get better in the middle of the field. ILB, Safety, TE, and maybe C. Still feel the draft is the best place to find them. Just need better players up the middle.

Going a season clean as far as injuries are concerned wouldn't suck either.

"It has been a chore for Green Bay Packers defensive coordinator Dom Capers to get things right this season.

....

It's just that the odds might be stacked against them because of one factor: youth.

Capers is more respected around NFL circles than he is with Packers fans because those that know his defense understand he has not been afforded the same luxury as his Pittsburgh Steelers counterpart, Dick LeBeau.

 

In a recent story in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, LeBeau, who together with Capers and head coach Bill Cowher transformed the Steelers into a 3-4 defensive powerhouse in the early '90s, basically said he wanted no part of rookies playing in his defense.

"The formula for us has been to get these guys and let them get assimilated into the defense and watch the veterans run it," LeBeau said. "If I had my choice I'd let (them) learn from the veterans and let them step into it as they become real comfortable in the defense."

 

...

 

Capers said he has simplified the defense as much as possible, but there are still elements of it that require experience and football smarts to be successful.

 

....

Former Steelers all-pro defensive back Rod Woodson played under both Capers and LeBeau and brought up a term heard every time the Packers give up a big play: communication.

"If you watch Green Bay play this year, they have a lot of young guys in the secondary and at linebackers and you see guys running wide open," Woodson said. "That's not how the coaches called it. The longer you're in the system, the more you can communicate because you believe in what you're going to see.

 

"Not only Coach LeBeau, but the reason other guys don't like playing young guys is that they're going to make some mistakes making calls. When you play in the secondary, when you have calls that aren't made the right way, you end up giving up a touchdown."

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/topstories/dom-capers-recipe-for-defensive-success

 

If Capers can't run his defense without vets, and TT doesn't value vets, then we are never going to get the true value of a Capers defense....which raises the question of why keep somebody whose scheme will not fit the players he is given.

More HGH please! (Like Seattle & SF)

**** the Seadderall Seahawks. Cheating ****sticks.

THIS!

Thanks ammo.   It's still a tall order, but I feel a little better about our chances now that the road monkey is officially off of our backs.

I can't wait until the HOME monkey gets off the packers back. :-)

 

Let me see if I can sum up the "keep Capers" points.

1) The defense played better yesterday, good enough to win.

2) He hasn't had the players to fit his scheme.

     a) they are two young

     b) they are not trying hard

3) Who are we going to get that is better?

 

For the first point, yes, the defense did better than I expected, but the bar was pretty low.  As I said earlier, this is about body of work, not yesterday.

 

Second point.  There are rookie defensive players all over the league in games, contributing, and making an impact.  I don't doubt that players get better the longer they are in a scheme, but at some point, something in this defense has to click for young players because Green Bay is not going to go out and sign a bunch of free agents familiar with Capers defense.  If Capers the coach cannot get guys to understand the complexities of his defense, that is a coaching/scheme issue.  I know there are dum football players, but I have a hard time believing we have the dummest.  If his next step is to simplify his defense to what we saw this year, then that is equally ineffective.  Perhaps a simplified "Capers defense" simply isn't any good. 

 

We are also hearing that guys like Hawk and Raji are good players doing what they are supposed to do, then maybe that needs to change also.  Or that guys like Raji are just turds, they why so many snaps?  I see that charge falling on coaching, and Dom sits at the head of the defensive table.

 

Lastly, "who are we going to get that is better?"  I don't know, but that is the Mike Sherman argument.  Ted and Mike's job is to find a guy who can make things work in the context of the current Green Bay Packers.  I don't think Dom has been that guy, or can be that guy next year.  Ted and Mike might see things differently.  I base my statement on poor defenses for his body of work in Green Bay.  He has not thrived in this context.  I'd like a set of fresh eyes on this context, because I feel strongly the offense makes this team a superbowl contender. 

 

Me too El Ka,

 

I sometimes like to try to play devil's advocate and I think doing so in an attempt to disagree with your post would be tough sledding.

 

Dom ought to go.  Enough is enough.

 

The only rebut I can think of is IF the talent level on defense post-injuries is near-atrocious.

Good post E-K-B!!  No one has posted Capers needs to go because of yesterday, but all who posted says he needs to go because of the past 3 seasons. There are other guys out here now, Wade Phillips, Ray Horton, maybe a up and coming  assistant from some other team or even a college D coordinator. Sometimes you just have to move on.

I'm not in favor of keeping Capers just because I don't think there is anyone better, there are plenty of better coordinators than Dom Capers. Those guys have secure jobs though and aren't going to be available. I think Capers is probably in the top 15 of coordinators in the NFL, I think he's every bit as good as guys like Vic Fangio and Dan Quinn. The difference between Capers and Vic Fangio, and there aren't many, is that Fangio has pro bowl players at almost every position. Compare those defenses, Clay Matthews is the only Packer I would rather have than his counterpart on the 49ers. If you want to field a defense like the 49ers, if you want to shut down offenses in the playoffs then you need talent. You all act like that 2010 team/defense was a complete fluke, that the Packers just got lucky. Capers had the talent he needed, compare the 2010 Packer D to the current 49er D, it's a dramatic shift...I'll take 2010 versions of Clay Matthews (vs. Aldon Smith), Cullen Jenkins (vs. Ray McDonald), Charles Woodson (vs. Tarrell Brown), Nick Collins (vs. Donte Whitner), and Tramon Williams (vs. Carlos Rogers) agains their counterparts on the current 49er D. So he has the talent he needs, he produces one of the top defenses in Packer history, but when he doesn't have the talent then the D sucks. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but that doesn't seem like a hard formula. That's what his body of work says to me. And this tired mantra of "he should be able to do more with less" is absolute horsecrap. No coach can succeed when he doesn't have enough talented players, plain and simple. If you think some up and comer is going to energize this rag tag group of average players into a championship defense then you're kidding yourself. Sean McDermott is succeeding because he has guys like Luke Keuchly, Vic Fangio is succeeding because he has guys like Pat Willis, Dom Capers sucks because he has guys like AJ Hawk. Ted Thompson didn't do a good job replacing John Dorsey and John Schneider, that much is obvious because they're succeeding elsewhere. I believe in Ted Thompson, but he needs to step up and find a couple impact players to turn this D around. I'm in favor of keeping Dom Capers because of what he CAN do: field a championship D when he has the talent he needs. 

If they keep Dom then I don't see anyway of getting better if we don't use FA to fill some of the defenses holes.  If we draft/develop then nothing will be different next year we will have communication issues ALL year.

GD,

 

Your position is where my devil's advocate attempt would go.  2010 Woodson was unbelievable.  Clay was as well.  Definitely Tramon.  Definitely Collins.  The DL was stout enough.  Come to think of it, they were good enough to play THREE corners as a base (Shields being so good for a rookie).

 

Oh yeah, and Bishop.

 

Woodson gone.  Tramon had that nerve injury.  Clay out.  Bishop gone.  Collins gone.  Raji not the same.

 

Wow.  What a DROPOFF.

 

To continue with such a line of defense, from 0-100, what does the 2010 defense get?

 

A 90, perhaps?  95 even?

 

What of this year?

 

55?

 

I don't know.  But, the dropoff is vast and the stats on Fangio are telling.  (My how much better he fares with players.)

 

Good fodder for conversation.

But isn't the same problem going to happen next year?  The guys Ted drafts will still be rookies.  The guys on the team will only be one year less dum.  Maybe as many guys don't get hurt, but I doubt it. 

 

I don't think "he should do more with what he has" is any more of a tired mantra than "he'd do fine with better players."  If he can't do it in the current context, then someone else needs to come in.  That won't (obviously) be a currently employed defensive coordinator, so Ted and Mike need to locate the next guy. 

 

Do you honestly believe things will change that much on the defensive side of the ball next year unless a new coordinator is brought in? 

 

If they keep Dom I think we will finally see TT wade deeper into FA.  Everybody (per previous PIT article) knows our D lacks talent and anyone replacing Capers will be faced with the same problem if TT doesn't do more than fill the field with rookies and UDFA. 

 

"There are rookies all over the NFL who are contributing" is misguided because it lacks context.  Who are the players surrounding those rookies?  Look at the top 5 D's or even top 10 in the league and show me one that has lost as many starters and ours and show me one that has less talent, even if all of our guys were healthy.   

 

That 2010 D was great but even it didn't have as many stars as SF and SEA so you have to be at least a little impressed with what they accomplished, above and beyond the usual comments. 

 

Injuries are not an excuse but they are a reality.  That and a lack of talent has doomed this D, not Capers.  That said, if he goes then TT has to step up and provide whoever it is at DC with more to work with or we'll keep seeing the same results.

Yes we have one of the younger rosters, but that's where better teaching comes into play. Our primary defensive player group looks like this:

Aiyewa - 1 year of experience (new to us this year?)

Banjo - rookie (although one could argue that by the end of the year no one is a rookie any more)

Boyd - R

Burnett - 4

Bush - 8

Daniels - 2

Hawk - 8

House - 3

Hyde - R

Jennings - 3

Jones, B. - 5

Jones, D. - R

Lattimore - 3

Matthews - 5

Mulumba - R

Neal - 4

Palmer - R

Perry - 2

Pickett - 13

Raji - 5

Richardson - 2

Rolle - R

Shields - 4

Wilson - 4

Worthy - 2

 

We finished this regular season as the 25th ranked defense, 24th in passing,  25th running. Take a look at Cleveland's roster. I see a lot of young guys, not quite the same but similar to us. Yet their rankings: overall, 9; passing, 8; running, 18. In 2012, Browns finish as the 10th ranked D; we were 22. Cleveland's offensive ranking: 18.

 

Either Capers' schemes are so exotic only a toucan bird can play them or he has rotten schemes or his assistants can't teach or we have absolutely the bottom of the barrel in players. I think it has to start with Capers going.

 

Agree with what seems to be the consensus. Yesterday wasn't on Dom, but full body of work suggests new blood would help.

 

If Horton doesn't land an HC job and they pass on him for a second consecutive year, I'd be pretty pissed. Fired after leading AZ to 12th ranked defense, turns CLE into #8 D in first year with about three players I can name. From what I know of him, his D is much more multiple and built around his talent than Dom's brand of 3-4.

 

He also spent several years with PIT, so it's possible he has some history with some current GB coaches if they wanted to retain any.

 

The Vikes interview is strictly a Rooney Rule gesture. They need a QB guru and can't see them going any route but Bevell. Ted also has history with Wade so he's probably on the table, but there's no way they can let Horton DC for another team in 2014.

I think they could be successful with Capers if the right approach is taken on the personnel side. Let Raji walk first and foremost. He's not what this D needs. Re-sign Pickett to be the stopgap NT, he showed in the SF game that he still has some gas in the tank. Draft a true NT. Cut Brad Jones and sign a veteran ILB who can take over, there are several to choose from and then draft a true ILB early in the draft...that strategy served Baltimore's D pretty well this season signing Daryl Smith and drafting Arthur Jones. Sign a veteran FS who can teach these young players, there are several who will be available. Draft a FS. These aren't guys who will damage a young players development, these are 1 or 2 year bandaids who will allow young players to develop. If they get some veteran savvy on this D and cut out the stupid communication errors then this D will be solid again, even with Capers. Oh and they need to stay healthy. Signing 2 veteran stopgaps and drafting their replacements isn't a tall order, but I think it would really help curb some of the major issues this D has. 

If they don't get a safety early, I agree that Ted will have to look for a free agent to line up next to Burnett.  I don't see Jones or Hawk getting cut, so I think we have to live with that mediocrity for at least another year.  That does bother me, I don't think either player brings much to the table.  I think they can live with Raji walking, I was impressed with the young widebodies when they were given time on the field.  I think Tramon stays, he wasn't as productive as 2010, but he returned to being a more than serviceable cornerback.   

With Capers, it's surprising just how quickly he turned the Pack's defense around in 2009/2010 compared to that awful 2008 D.  It's also surprising how quickly that D fell apart in 2011 after losing just 2 starters.

 

I could see Capers still succeeding in GB, but it will take an overhaul of personnel.  There are many square pegs trying to fit into round holes.