NOT CAPERS FAULT!

May be in the minority but believe TT will hold on to Raji.  Letting that high of a draft pick walk that has been, for the most part healthy, would be a shot at Thompson's model.

Not to be argumentative, but 2 FF in the last 2 weeks, one recovered. 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

There is some young talent internally that will make the D better. Josh Boyd looks like he will be a solid contributor in the interior, looks like a good run stuffer. Datone Jones has a ton of potential as a pass rusher, he actually looked great as an OLB rushing off the edge. Micah Hyde continually got better through the season and the fact that he was even in a position to jump that route at the end shows what kind of improvement he's made. He's a good young player. These 3 players will only benefit from their experience and a whole offseason to improve. And I think the fact that we had 3 rookies playing key roles on the D not only shows what caliber players Capers had to work with, but it's also a testament to his and his assistants coaching that the D was even competitive. San Fran only has 1 rookie playing a key role and he was their round 1 pick, we had a round 1 and two round 4 picks playing key roles...and we still almost beat San Fran. 

Bring back Easy Ed Donatell.  Since he is currently 49ers DB coach he should easily be able to identify what is wrong with the Packers D.  3-4 or 4-3, I don't care. Since there may be many changes on the D player side, get a coordinator 1st, evaluate what you have, draft or sign FA and Super Bowl bound in 2014.

Agree GD. The transition began last year with Thompson trying to get bigger with players like Boyd and Jones. And I would expect that he will continue along that path. Woodson would have made that pick that Hyde missed, but those are pretty big shoes to fill. Hyde will continue to grow and contribute. The backfield was really unsettled this year and the injuries can't be ignored. But these are the times of instant gratification and the thought of not winning it all every year is hard to accept for some.

I agree Horton looks like a good candidate.  But this organization favors stability and I think Horton would be jumping at the chance for a HC spot in the near future.  While rent-a-DC would be worth it IF he gets you a trophy, I'm not convinced TT thinks the same way.

I'm not opposed to replacing Dom, but he did have a decent enough plan for this game. Morgan Burnett was in position to undercut that floater TD to Davis, and didn't, and Hyde probably should have held on to that pick on the last drive.

There were plenty of coaching failures in this game, but those were on McCarthy IMO. Poor offensive gameplan (those 3 and outs on the first 3 drives?), and his typical panicked clock management where he somehow manages to run out of time in the first half while still having a timeout. McCarthy designs a good offense in general, but under pressure he cracks. He's like the Tony Romo of head coaches. Ok, that's probably not quite fair. Andy Reid is the Tony Romo of head coaches.

Draft AND Develop. It works, if the draftee has the capacity to develop/improve.

Greene was able to take Neal and make him an OLB in one off-season... but Perry still looks like he's in college. Year 3 maybe for Perry?

Shields was a WR until his Sr year at MIA and now 4 years into the NFL he's one of the best CBs in the league.

Hawk came in a consensus top 10 draft pick, but has not progressed/improved since his best days at OSU.

Daniels has blown past Worthy  - may be the injury slowed Worthy but he was a healthy inactive this season.

Thompson will continue to draft football players, lots of them... it depends on coaches being able to develop the player. Some will develop (Shields), and some will not (Hawk).

Really good point, and I wonder what Ted's stance is on that. If that is his position, that would pretty much eliminate any up and comers and limit the pool to the failed-HC-lifetime-DC crowd like Wade Philips. I'd be fine with Wade, but hope it would be because he is the best hire, not the most stable.

And I'd say there's probably a 70% chance Dom hangs around, so this is likely all moot any way.

Dom Capers was not the problem yesterday.  I understand the incessant need for some fans to find a guy to **** all over but Dom isn't deserving of such nonsense.  

The defense played hard and with a lot of heart.  Losing Shields so early in the game was a significant problem.  

GB had opportunities to win the game and it just didn't work out...which is a good sign when you consider SF is a superior football team.  

There are + and - for every guy out there. The young guys have vigor, but not as much experience. The old guys have experience but may be lacking vigor

Ray Horton was given a lot of credit for taking the Cards defense from # 30 up to #17 and he repeated his # 17 ranking the next  season in the desert....and that was good enough to get him a new job in Cleveland where he coached... the # 30 defense.

Oops, I thought Ray Horton was the answer ? He musta got instantly dumber when he arrived at the Factory of Sadness

And how did the brilliant Ray Hortons' former defense in AZ do once the genius left ? Did they fall apart without his awesomeness ?  Well umm no, they came in at # 7 this year -  a better ranking than he was able to achieve....

Players , not schemes are what makes this league work and those demanding that a DC produce a Championship caliber defense with average players are just being silly

Here's an excerpt from McGinn's article that's worth consideration:

An NFL executive in personnel says this:

"It's just a bland brand right now," an executive in personnel said. "They play hard, in general. They are well-coached with what they have. They just don't have the speed and play-making capabilities.

"I just don't feel they have the big-time playmaker. There's nobody on the 'D' that I fear from a protection standpoint. They had Matthews. There was something about that guy. There was a real fear. Now they don't have the fear factor."

So this idea that Capers should succeed no matter what is a load of crap imo and I give a lot more credence to an NFL Executive's opinion ....

The fans who say "the safeties all suck, AJ Hawk sucks, Raji sucks, MD Jennings sucks, Neal sucks, Mulumba sucks, Brad Jones sucks, Datone is a bust, Worth isn't Worthy" are the same ones calling for Capers to be fired because he couldn't turn all that Suck into a Championship defense.

Nothing changes until you have better players and as noted in the great post by Boneio, Vic Fangio turned into a great DC once he got himself a set of all-pro LBs to work with. ( Players, not schemes )

Keep Capers, Fire Capers doesn't matter- but nothing changes until you have defensive  playmakers available

Players make the defense and the good news is that under the Ron Wolf plan, the defense is the side of the ball that is "easiest and fastest to add outside players" ie FAs and draft picks.

All of the FAs added so far have been on the defensive side of the field

I'd also like to go back to the excellent post from CAPackfan95 where he did a fine job of refuting my comments on Rob Ryan. In it he says, "lets get off the meme that Casey Hayward is the lynchpin of this defense. "

I think we all saw how incredibly effective Woodson was in the joker/slot CB role under Capers - pushing Charles to win the Defensive Player of the Year and causing havoc all over the field. He was the lynchpin of the defense and opposing coaches said as much in preparing to face the Packers in 2009, 2010

Casey Hayward surely isn't there  yet, but he showed a very promising rookie season and enough skills & smarts to fill that very- difficult- to- replace role. It can be a lynchpin position in this defense and losing the guy who played it very well has a major impact on the success on Sunday. Especially when the other lynchpins like Matthews are out

Players make the defense and this defense just needs more players.

9ers fielded 4 "very good-to- great" LBs yesterday, the Packers fielded none

So today Vic Fangio is a great DC, and Capers is a goat.

I'd love to test out that Bum Phillips quote on coaches:

"He can take his'n and beat your'n or he can take your'n and beat his'n

If Fangio had the Packers defensive roster yesterday and vice-versa, who would win the game ?

Think about that for a moment. And if you think Fangio wins the game with our defensive roster on Sunday or Capers loses with theirs....then so be it

For what it's worth, the "superior" team dodged a freakin bullet yesterday and they know it. Maybe it's just me but In watching  post game 49er interviews this morning  I sensed more relief in their responses vs the cocky/confident ones I usually see from them after a win.

And before we get to high on Ray Horton, he had a lot talent to work with in Cleveland. TJ Ward (FS), Joe Haden (CB), D'Qwell Jackson (ILB), Barkevious Mingo (OLB), Jabaal Sheard (OLB), and Paul Kruger (DE). He had some quality talent at key positions.  The cupboard is not bare in Cleveland.

Satori,

 That did make me think. So where we gonna get these studs? Ted won't do Free agency and young guys don't get this D.

I am pretty much in the same camp (Satori).  But what worries me is how much emphasis they've put into fixing the D and yet keep wallowing in the poop/average level of play.  Anyone who buys that the D doesn't have enough talent, and I'm one of them, has to look at who is in charge of supply.

Well TT isn't going anywhere so where does that leave us?

Based on what Dom has done, does anyone really expect him to do better next year? 

I don't.  I actually think he is back next year, so I hope I am wrong.

I think with a full compliment, the defense would probably have better numbers... and still give up 700 yards to some team when they can least afford it. 

quote:

The Vikes interview is strictly a Rooney Rule gesture. They need a QB guru and can't see them going any route but Bevell.

You put it perfectly devil boy. So for those who might want to point back to Teddy for not getting the right personnel: Why do you think Ron Wolf decided to hang it up after only one SB for the Pack? Because the lynchpins are tough to find and hang on to in this day of free agency and very few trades. He was quick to recognize a "fart in the breeze" and didn't want to face this monumental task of putting together a winner every year. Thompson's trying.  But will he try fast enough to keep all happy?

That's the nicest compliment to get on a message board

Thank you

Having to find/sign more talent.  That is true for no matter who is DC next year.  I really do think TT will do more in FA this year.  He might be stubborn (some may call it resilience) but he ain't dumb. 

I've probably been Thompson's biggest fan on here and while I'm still a big fan of his I do think that the shortcomings with this team fall mostly on his shoulders. I realize it's tough in this salary cap era when you have to pay 100 million for your QB and 60 million for your premier pass rusher and ultimately his goal is to keep GB from ever being in "salary cap hell" by passing on expensive vets in favor of cheaper young players. I recognize that and I do appreciate that he's trying to keep GB from ever having to "blow up" the roster to relieve cap burdens (which is what Seattle and San Fran will soon have to do). There has to be a balance though and if we're 1 Daryl Smith away from having a strong D or 1 Ed Reed away from winning in the playoffs then that's what you have to do. Yes 1 Daryl Smith might mean you miss out on a couple UDFA's with a ton of potential, but that's the sacrifice you might have to make. Thompson would rather have the UDFA's though.

I think it's interesting that we discuss fire Capers or no when Ted surely has to be much further ahead on this than we are. I'd guess a decision was made earlier this year on that, and if a change is made, they have a plan in place on who they will hire. Conversely, if Capers and staff remains the same, that has to factor into draft decisions and other player acquisition.

Fandame hit the point I was going to make in his last 2 paragraphs. I'd even argue there are teams with less (perceived or real) talent than the Packers who are getting better results defensively.

Another thing that struck me yesterday watching the game: We were missing some starters to be sure, but we still had Raji, Pickett, Hawk, Jones, and Burnett playing. I would expect those guys to step up in leadership and play, but they didn't, whatever the reason may be.

Satorya makes good points.

And I've felt that Compers isn't the great Satan many do. My issue has been swing and miss on tallant...and that's not his fault. He can only coach with guys he's given and guys who are healthy. To me a bigger issue is how many guys we have out each and every season. It's a fuggin' epidemic. And I am not sure if it's because of our training staff, or because our medical staff is so conservative we bench guys who maybe would play in other less conservative organizations.

Depth was really tested this year on both sides of the ball. Adding 30-year-old bodies via FA isn't the answer...if you can find one guy who may be at the end of his career, a la Woodson, then go for it...but to break the bank just doesn't make sense to me. There are some solid players, when healthy, on this D...Perry was supposed to be the havoc creator CM3 was...but just didn't pan out. We need a couple more playmakers on the D to compliment CM3...Daniels is really promising...maybe another off-season, Datone comes in and sets the world on fire. Pass rush makes our secondary better...if we can address that, and guys can stay health(ish), I think we are golden,

Did you miss the Ring Ceremony while you were canning your rutabagas ?

As another poster pointed out, that CLE roster taint bare.  Please name other names/teams though.  Might add some weight to the argument.

You can't just walk away from a pressure canner

Obviously CM3 being out is huge.

But the biggest deficiency on this defense is the ILB'ers. Hawk & whoever they plug in next to him.  

Change it to Willis & Bowman & the Packer defense goes from serviceable to much better & it's probably the difference between winning & losing.

I agree SOME of the players are the issue & yesterday is not Dom's fault but his body of work since 2010 is not good. People forget Charles Woodsons comments near the end of his time in Green Bay. Look them up....It may give you some insight.

It's a bottom line business & I generally give players & coaches 3 years to "fix it". I'm not some savant & I don't have all the answers but something on the defense needs to be "fixed" this off-season.

Thompson's  had his misses. This year was a glaring example in leaving the cupboard bare in the way of a backup to Rogers and he admitted as much. He needs to stop trying to play the role of the unsuspecting genius who can make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t. There can be a balance of FA and the draft. I think this is the year he starts to admit it.

I think 1 bright spot from this D is that some of the young players we have got a lot of good experience this year, especially in the playoffs. Mulumba, Nate Palmer, Micah Hyde, Datone Jones, Josh Boyd, David Bakhtiari, Myles White, etc. all got a lot of playing time this year which will be so valuable in the years to come. They're far ahead of where other rookies around the league are at this point. Hopefully these guys can build off the good things we saw this season, get bigger and stronger, and contribute even more this year. That's the only good thing to come out of injuries and under-performing starters. 

I wonder, if there is some bizzaro world, where the guys Ted drafted perform better?  Lots of talk of Perry excelling in some circumstances, not in others.  Hawk could play better, then the expectations changed and he went back to running headstrong into blockers.  Raji is playing out of position.  Miscommunication goes back to 2011. 

Nov 7, 2011

Green Bay Packers cornerback Charles Woodson spoke up. Somehow, he said, the team needed to create new ways for Matthews to rush the passer.

"I think we try to be as creative with Clay as you can possibly be," defensive coordinator Dom Capers said. "You look around the league, I don't know there are too many defensive players that move around more than what Clay does."

Two specific problems stood out in Sunday's win - communication breakdowns in the secondary and the lack of a pass rush. Philip Rivers, when he wasn't throwing costly interceptions, feasted on the Packers.

I just think it is possible that Capers don't gots it anymore.  At the very least, I'm confident he don't gots it with the current situation.  Maybe, just maybe, these guys could do better with different leadership. 

Or Ted doesn't know how to draft defensive players. 

One or the other. 

Agree Satori, Thompson has done a poor job on the defensive side of the roster since 2010. The occasional wins like Daniels, Hayward, Hyde, just aren't enough. They need some speed and playmaking ability at key positions (S, ILB, ILB). And they need a NT who can anchor. Address these areas and it will be shocking how much better the D will become. 

Time to fix it instead of hoping someone develops.  MD Jennings, Jerron Mc Millan, Brad Jones, AJ Hawk, BJ Raji, etc... Are not the answer. 

Vic Ketchman of Packers.com had this point:

it hit me: the 49ers were playing with Ahmad Brooks, Aldon Smith, NaVorro Bowman and Patrick Willis, and injuries were forcing the Packers to play with a hobbled Andy Mulumba and two players (Datone Jones and Jamari Lattimore) out of position. Linebacker, especially outside linebacker, is the star position in a 3-4 defense, and the 49ers were playing with a quartet of stars; the Packers were forced to patch.

Capers is left to patch together a defense consisting of MD Jennings, Mulumba, Brad Jones, AJ Hawk, Davon House, Jarrett Bush, etc., and we're wondering why he can't get it done?  

Doesn't it bother anyone that it took an un-suspended player in Jolly to suddenly revitalize the defensive line?  Doesn't it bother anyone that a 4th round draft pick (McMillian) played worse than two sub-par undrafted free agents (Jennings, Richardson), or that the 4th year player with the $25m contract (Burnett)  played so poorly that he would have been a bench player for up to half of the NFL teams?  

Capers has his faults, but he was left to try to make chicken salad out of chicken crap.

A defense either stops people or it doesn’t. This one doesn’t.

He was able to be creative with Clay in 2009/2010 because he had Cullen Jenkins holding down the outside as a DE. There are still responsibilities that the OLB has and when you get "creative" with him then you're sacrificing those responsibilities. At minimum you're pushing those jobs onto someone else. Covering the flat becomes the FS or the ILB job or outside containment becomes the 5-tech's job. He could move Clay around because Jenkins could hold containment and Collins could cover the underneath stuff. Can you honestly say that if you were Dom Capers you would trust Morgan Burnett and BJ Raji/Mike Daniels/Datone Jones to handle that kind of responsibility? Hell those guys can't even handle their own stuff half the time. So having players that aren't trustworthy limits your "creativity" as a coordinator. 

2 years ago....After the Charger game we're what? 9-0? & even 2 years ago the same problems plague our defense. Miscommunication & lack of a pass rush.

Seemed like yesterday the communication was better but again....Lack of a pass rush & didn't hold contain on the final drive allowing kaep to run.

While some of the players are to blame, changes need to be made. Yes better players in some positions but changes on the def. staff too.

IT IS TIME....

Maybe, maybe not?  link

Certainly part of this is just Tramon campaigning to keep his job, but if the young guys listed in the article don't develop they'll (Packers) need a talent upgrade from somewhere. Getting it in the draft is difficult and hoping for a lot to find more than 1 impact player in year 1, so FA or trade would seem to be the answer. Considering Thompson's draft and develop approach and McCarthy and staff towing that company line, I expect we'll see the young guys when the 2014 season starts. 

Lather, rinse, repeat... until the development occurs.

Next year we need to bring George the Animal Steele in for a motivational speech. 

I don't know each individual teams' roster, so I'm going to shoot from the lip here.

Also, I'm basing my judgement on total yards/game average so there is a consistent standard.

Bills

Jets

Rams

Lions

Bucs

Dolphins

Raiders

I'm not saying these teams are talentless, nor did they suffer the same amount of injuries, but can anybody argue that some of the teams above are more  talented that the Packers?