@Goalline posted:If we hit it big with Love a lot of Packers fans are going to look pretty fucking stupid,
Just out of curiosity, does the definition of "hitting it big" with Jordan Love at QB include a Super Bowl appearance?
Or are we talking the kind of "hitting it big" that has occurred over the past decade in "Title Town?"
@SteveLuke posted:Just out of curiosity, does the definition of "hitting it big" with Jordan Love at QB include a Super Bowl appearance?
Or are we talking the kind of "hitting it big" that has occurred over the past decade in "Title Town?"
These are the Green Bay Packers. It is always about championships.
@Goalline posted:I think if I were a GM I would draft a QB high in the draft every few years like Gute did with Jordan Love. It seems to me that hitting on a young QB is one of the surest ways to win the big one, and trading your Super Bowl winning star QB is the surest way of recouping bucketfuls of life giving draft picks.
Or you could accurately assess your team and pull the trigger one way or the other. You've already hit on a QB. What's a better prospect of winning a Super Bowl? Hoping one the QBs you continue to draft is worth a shit or going over the top with with the star QB you already have?
We can point to Mahomes, Rodgers on rookie contracts, etc. to win a Super Bowl but the reality is the GM has to be competent or lucky enough to be hitting on skill players and defense around the QB too. What was TT's big sign early in Rodgers career? Woodson, who didn't have a buyers market for his services. TT did a shit ton of right at the beginning of his tenure but he also banked it on a QB that was arguable a #1 overall pick in the draft without pissing away a 4th rounder.
So how about doing everything you can to get over the top with the current superstar QB? The odds are infinitely better. You guys are hung up on contract. Guess what? That's the reality. So a GM either adapts to it and assess properly or continues to spin the wheel. Dumbfuck Gunt has it right in front of his face but is incorrectly assessing the team needs by leaving giant fucking holes. There is a higher percentage those positions could've been shored up with a couple of players, be it draft or FA, instead of hoping and wishing on the Jordan Love lottery and building out the team again.
So even the contract argument is a cop out for being a bunch of chicken shits. So what if the contract hit blows up at the end of Rodgers career if you win a couple of Super Bowls on the way out the door? Do people really think plugging in a new young QB, successful or not, is just going to allow the team to continue at the same pace?
Either that or the Triangle of Clowns is happy to be a "winning team" and chug along into obscurity.
Who would you suggest for our Woodson? There isn’t one, and if there were where is the money? Tied up in our QB. Extend him and get a mess down the road. And if we don’t win it? There is no perfect solution. There is only the solution you desire.
The team TT built was actually good enough to win it without Woodson. How do I know that? Woodson essentially missed the Super Bowl.
Stop with the "who would you sign". It doesn't have to be a superstar, it just has to be someone more competent than fucking Dean Lowry, Tyler Lancaster while banking on an oft hurt 5th round ILB and scrub UDFA with ZERO depth behind either position. That's what makes this even more egregious. You already have Kenny Clark, Z and Alexander, finish the fucking job by getting some god damn competency and depth at those positions.
I swear to god if I hear, "Tyler Lancaster didn't lose the NFCC" from anyone I'll drive to your place and kick you right in the fucking nuts. Having competent players across the board means maybe one of those guys MAKES another play that impacts the game, say a Howard Green type situation. It is possible to have fuck ups and overcome them, say like 3 INTs, because your defense is fucking competent when it counts.. Instead you get "well, he's pretty decent in the run game". Great, who gives a fuck about being "pretty decent in the run game" in the god damn playoffs against playoff caliber teams that show you aren't "pretty decent in the run game"?
You have better players to up your chances, be it skill or luck. Gunt didn't even fucking try! And like I said, who gives a fuck about the cap hit at the end of Rodgers career if the team has more hardware to show for it? You're going to have to do a soft rebuild at minimum and it's becoming readily apparent that soft rebuilds are indicative of being happy with a "winning team". Great, you're like a Buick Century, reliable but you aren't going beat a Ferrari.
@Goalline posted:The team TT built was actually good enough to win it without Woodson. How do I know that? Woodson essentially missed the Super Bowl.
He missed part of it and his leadership and fire was a major factor. I said TT did a shit ton of things right at the beginning of his tenure. That should never be overlooked. That was the point of bringing up Woodson, he didn't bring in a bunch of big time FA's to do it.
Do you think what Gunt has shown so far is anywhere in TT's league at their respective times? I sure the fuck don't. These clowns continue to coat tail off of TT's biggest and best moves, namely Rodgers. They are literally looking a proverbial gift horse in the mouth.
And another thing, I personally am totally alright with going through a rebuild. Sure, you have to endure some shit football but I think it's exciting to watch new guys bud and build together. If your young QB is truly good, the wins and the momentum will continue to build and that's exciting.
But you’ll never be a Gremlin.
I'll take a Gremlin as long as you're souping the bitch up on the way. Let that jalopy tear ass down the road.
Speculate all you want, but your words say is, I don’t really know how he’s supposed to do it, but ...
”Gute, just fucking do it. No, I don’t care that this particular approach has never worked. Paying the QB 20% of the cap and winning the Super Bowl. I still want you to do it or I am going to hold my breath. Demands without solutions? That’s what you call whining.
The fact Gunt did nothing to shore up huge holes in the defense is not speculation. It's not about "he should've got this player" it's about "he should've at least fucking tried". And yes, I'm talking primarily about the draft.
I think people need to go back and watch the Super Bowl. Woodson didn’t miss the entire game. He missed about a half and his replacement (Bush) was terrible and had that game went on another quarter I’m not sure they win.
Let me also add that Rodgers wants to re-structure. There's your cap. The simple question is this, is the FO willing to deal with a total rebuild after Rodgers is done while providing resources for a much better chance at getting some Lombardis?
That's it. I'm okay with the Gremlin for a few years down the road. Maybe Jordan Love is an awesome mechanic. You guys like the Buick.
I guess I don’t view it that way Hank
Gute spent a shit ton of money on free agents. Namely the Smiths. They’ve moved money around to allow for extensions to Aaron Jones (among others).
But there’s only so much maneuvering with the roster given what they are paying Rodgers.
Do we know for certain that AR wants to restructure ?
That the Packers don’t?
And again, Rodgers restructure gives that maneuverability. Finish the job.
Here's a hypothetical. Gerk focuses some of the draft on addressing defensive needs while looking for mid-tier guys and possible trade scenarios now that he has the cap room from Rodgers restructure. They actually get over the top and win a Super Bowl (or at least up their odds).
Rodgers takes a crap in 2022, injury or whatever. So bring on Jordan Love. He's on a rookie contract, he's playing behind a vet line so he isn't going to get smoked while he's learning. You know you're going to take it in the ass in a year or two so you hit the draft, and draft only, hard. Still going to get hammered and take the dip but you're doing it with a QB, who now has experience under his belt, on the other side.
Yep, you have to sign guys like Alexander but that's when you start cutting bait with guys like Bak or even Z and just let young guys do what they can.
@Pikes Peak posted:Do we know for certain that AR wants to restructure ?
That the Packers don’t?
Nope. But it's fun to bitch about it.
But it doesn’t “finish the job”
It’s not like they can convert half of his remaining contract to free up enough space to make a difference. They could probably get 6-8MM this year and maybe another 6-8MM next year but that gives them another Kevin King type move. Yippy skippy. But you just pushed a lot more money into future liability.
Davante and Alexander are due for extensions too, and it makes that task a lot more challenging if you push more of Rodgers $$$ into the last 2 years of his deal.
Of course, this all assumes Rodgers and the Packers are open to a restructure and the same kind of terms of a restructure.
Rodgers restructure is one avenue only. The other one is actually attempting to address needs in the draft. It's a couple of players, not a spending spree. Competent mid tiers, not super stars.
Again, I don't care if they eat it at the end of Rodgers contract. The only player I would be concerned with resigning is Alexander. KC is locked in. You rebuild from there around Love or whoever.
@SteveLuke posted:Just out of curiosity, does the definition of "hitting it big" with Jordan Love at QB include a Super Bowl appearance?
Or are we talking the kind of "hitting it big" that has occurred over the past decade in "Title Town?"
Did the Dolphins "hit it big" when they drafted Marino? By all reasonable measures, they sure as hell did. But if you go by the narrow minded way of thinking that great QB's = Super Bowl wins, then they didn't. They got a HOF QB late in the first round, a guy that set all time yardage and TD records but his team didn't win a Super Bowl.
Just once I'd like to see this team standard applied to a position other than QB when evaluating careers of players. Or just stop with it altogether. Teams are evaluated by team success, not individual players. If Jordan Love becomes a Pro Bowl QB and plays 15+ years in GB then the Packers hit it big on the pick.
@Goalline posted:These are the Green Bay Packers. It is always about championships.
That is my position as well ... but being competitive and winning the NFC North seems to equate to "hitting it big" for at least some portion of the fan base. Some heretics even posit that the Packer organization seems a tad complacent about over what has transpired since the team's last Super Bowl appearance > 10 years ago.
Given that it is hardly realistic to assume Jordan Love will HIT IT SO BIG that he wins 3 MVPs in 10 years like Rodgers just did and given that Rodgers and the Pack advanced to as many SBs during that 3-MVP decade as the Queens, Lions, and Bears combined, is having a QB HITTING IT BIG more important than at least getting to a SB once a decade?
A lot of GM's let their egos get in the way of things. They draft a player, it becomes obvious they were deadly wrong about them (Spriggs). They will beat that dead horse, they will buy it a new saddle, they will strap a little hattie with a daisy on it's head in hopes they can ride it.
Gurt is lucky he doesn't have an owner to answer to, just this stunad who gets his jollies playing Bob the Builder.
People like to marvel at Ron Wolf for his ability to find talent...bigger than that, he was a guy that knew when to cut bait on guys. Thompson didn't, especially late in his career (I'll cut him slack, dude was not well), and to date, Gurt doesn't appear to be strong in that area.
@PackerHawk posted:Did the Dolphins "hit it big" when they drafted Marino? By all reasonable measures, they sure as hell did. But if you go by the narrow minded way of thinking that great QB's = Super Bowl wins, then they didn't. They got a HOF QB late in the first round, a guy that set all time yardage and TD records but his team didn't win a Super Bowl.
Just once I'd like to see this team standard applied to a position other than QB when evaluating careers of players. Or just stop with it altogether. Teams are evaluated by team success, not individual players. If Jordan Love becomes a Pro Bowl QB and plays 15+ years in GB then the Packers hit it big on the pick.
I agree with this narrow-mindedness. Some of it is from the NFL media, but I think a lot of it is due to Michael Jordan and the way the sports media world (especially ESPN) markets sports. It's all about watch "Aaron Rodgers take on Patrick Mahomes" or "Giannis play LeBron."
Was Joe Montana really better than Dan Marino? If they switched places Marino would have been the best ever and Montana would have probably been a good QB in Miami. I mean it's a lot different throwing to Jerry Rice and playing with a defense headlined by multiple HOFers than making Mark Clayton and Mark Duper look like All-Pros. You are right about the focus on QBs almost exclusively for this in the NFL. Joe Thomas should be first-ballot HOFer and the last 3 teams he played on lost 44 of 48 games. No one says he should get excluded from the HOF because his teams were terrible.
The NBA is worse. I'm a fan of Scottie Pippen's style of play, but was he really better than Charles Barkley? I would have said Karl Malone but I always avoid him because 20 year-olds that knock-up 13-year-olds should be in jail, not NBA all-star games. Is LeBron really better than some of the guys that came before him because he has 4 titles? Don't get me wrong, he's a great player but he handpicked his teammates for every title and colluded through his agent to build them.
MLB thankfully hasn't risen to this level, mainly because 1 guy doesn't make a big of a difference. Are Ted Williams, Musial, Banks, and Mike Trout going to be downgraded because they never won a World Series?
@Tschmack posted:I think people need to go back and watch the Super Bowl. Woodson didn’t miss the entire game. He missed about a half and his replacement (Bush) was terrible and had that game went on another quarter I’m not sure they win.
Actually, I agree. It was Driver who missed essentially the whole game.
@Chongo posted:A lot of GM's let their egos get in the way of things. They draft a player, it becomes obvious they were deadly wrong about them (Spriggs). They will beat that dead horse, they will buy it a new saddle, they will strap a little hattie with a daisy on it's head in hopes they can ride it.
Gurt is lucky he doesn't have an owner to answer to, just this stunad who gets his jollies playing Bob the Builder.
People like to marvel at Ron Wolf for his ability to find talent...bigger than that, he was a guy that knew when to cut bait on guys. Thompson didn't, especially late in his career (I'll cut him slack, dude was not well), and to date, Gurt doesn't appear to be strong in that area.
I think Gutey's been OK in this regard (much better than TT even early in his career). I think TT's blind spot was for guys that were players like him (limited athletically, but high-effort, high-character guys, especially on defense). AJ Hawk comes to mind as the prime example.
Last year Gutey moved on from two guys who got big free agent deals, Bulaga and Martinez. The year before it was Cobb and Matthews. In 2018, it was Jordy Nelson and Morgan Burnett. The last year of TT when Gutey and others were probably calling more of the shots than was let on they let TJ Lang, JC Tretter, and Eddie Lacy walk.
That's 9 guys that they probably made the correct decisions on while making decisions to resign Bakh and D. Adams, among others. There are no Micah Hyde or Casey Heyward mistakes in that batch.
@Henry posted:Let me also add that Rodgers wants to re-structure. There's your cap. The simple question is this, is the FO willing to deal with a total rebuild after Rodgers is done while providing resources for a much better chance at getting some Lombardis?
That's it. I'm okay with the Gremlin for a few years down the road. Maybe Jordan Love is an awesome mechanic. You guys like the Buick.
This is speculation. If Rodgers wanted to restructure it would be done. He wants a big ass extension. Time will tell if he gets it.
Gurt is lucky he doesn't have an owner to answer to, just this stunad who gets his jollies playing Bob the Builder.
It goes both ways though. There was a story that Jerry Jones, the year Johnny "money" Manziel was in the draft that Jones had to be physically restrained from taking him. Instead, they picked Zach Martin.
Martin went onto to I believe 6 Pro bowls in a row.
In some cases, yes, I'd love to have a knowledgeable owner in Gute's ear telling him we're going all out, getting Rodgers defensive help, signing X player etc,
But look at the absolute dolts who are owners. It's numbing how stupid most of the them are. See The Bears. See The Lions. And see the Vikings for far too many years.
And that's just our division.
I'm good with no owner.
Give Rodgers an extension. I lived through the 70s and 80s and never missed a game. The Packers are in better hands now than they were then. I would suffer a few years if it means getting Rodgers another super bowl. Pay the man his money.
@SteveLuke posted:That is my position as well ... but being competitive and winning the NFC North seems to equate to "hitting it big" for at least some portion of the fan base. Some heretics even posit that the Packer organization seems a tad complacent about over what has transpired since the team's last Super Bowl appearance > 10 years ago.
Even Vikings fans piss on that position that going to NFCC's is good enough.
@packerboi posted:Gurt is lucky he doesn't have an owner to answer to, just this stunad who gets his jollies playing Bob the Builder.
It goes both ways though. There was a story that Jerry Jones, the year Johnny "money" Manziel was in the draft that Jones had to be physically restrained from taking him. Instead, they picked Zach Martin.
Martin went onto to I believe 6 Pro bowls in a row.
In some cases, yes, I'd love to have a knowledgeable owner in Gute's ear telling him we're going all out, getting Rodgers defensive help, signing X player etc,
But look at the absolute dolts who are owners. It's numbing how stupid most of the them are. See The Bears. See The Lions. And see the Vikings for far too many years.
And that's just our division.
I remember the Jerry Jones story. His son Stephen had to restrain his dad. Instead, Jimmy Haslam of the Browns forced his guys to draft Johnny Football because some homeless guy asked him to. And, Dan Snyder forced his guys to draft Dwayne Haskins despite their reservations. Owners who interfere in football affairs fail hard.
@Floridarob posted:Give Rodgers an extension. I lived through the 70s and 80s and never missed a game. The Packers are in better hands now than they were then. I would suffer a few years if it means getting Rodgers another super bowl. Pay the man his money.
Assuming paying him allows us to win a Super Bowl. It may not be a coincidence that he won one when we weren't paying him.
