Packers need defense and Aaron is hoping Ted does something to reload. Which means Ted will probably draft a QB in the 1st round.
If one falls in his lap
Herschel posted:mrtundra posted:Stephon Gilmore from Buffalo is available, too. I think he'd be as good a fit as Bouye. I don't think TT will be our GM much longer. I feel Wolf will take over and will have a more favorable approach to free agency. If he indeed does, Bouye and/or Gilmore would be a good place to start. That's where we need the help, right now.
Wolf has been the "Director of Pro Personel" so either he's been unable to sell TT on the value of some guys out there or he's failed to see the value of some of the guys out there, which is an interesting and important distinction to make.
The FA's he lands always perform well. If they few we did sign busted, that would be a indication of a problem with Wolf.
CAPackFan95 posted:Hungry5 posted:There were a number of plays yesterday where the D didn't get it done, obviously. There is one however that tells me it is time for Dom to go.
The score was 17-0 and ATL has moved to the Packers 5 yard line. It's 3rd down and ATL was out of TOs.
>> M.Ryan pass short right to J.Jones for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
The defense on that play was Gunter 1-on-1 on Jones. There are maybe 2 or 3 CBs in the league who have a chance vs Julio Jones in that situation. The #domfense failed. Scheme was the problem. How do you not give Gunter help?
EVERYONE KNEW THE THROW WAS GOING TO JONES. How could you not?
4 playoff games where receivers went for >150 against a Dom Capers defense.
180 vs Jones (5th highest total in career)
176 vs Fitzgerald (highest total in his career)
165 vs Hicks (2nd highest total in his career)
151 vs Burress(4th highest total in his career)This isn't new. Capers consistently has done NOTHING to alter strategy or schemes when a the opponent is lighting him up.
Plaxico Burress' monster game was against the Bob Sanders coordinated defense. It was probably one of the reasons that Dom was brought in. Even in that case, Burress scored no TDs and the defense held the Giants to 23 points in an OT game.
The Packers defense helped win a championship because TT drafted CM3 and Raji and hit the jackpot on the Woodson signing.
YATittle posted:fROM COMMENTS ON THAT ARTICLE: Would be interesting to see their performance data cross referenced with pass rush data from the two years...Dom pressures and asks a lot from his secondary, but rushers didn't seem to be getting home this year.
T6th in sacks during the regular season. How is this rushers not getting home?
So players make the coach or the coach makes the players? Chicken, egg.
Floridarob posted:Packers need defense and Aaron is hoping Ted does something to reload. Which means Ted will probably draft a QB in the 1st round.
If the QB is by far the best player on their board they should do that. If TT would have used that kind of thinking, we'd probably be a 6-10 team QB'd by someone like Matt Flynn right now.
Aaron Rodgers will be 34 years old at the end of next season. Favre was 35 when they drafted Rodgers.
They need difference makers. It doesn't matter what position they're at.
It was all bad, but that 3rd down defense was especially appalling. It's incredible to see the contrast between two teams...Rodgers has to extend plays 8 seconds and throw darts in small windows to convert third downs while Ryan is throwing in a clean pocket to wide open guys. Of their 9 3rd down conversions, was anything remotely contested where you said to yourself "great throw" or "great catch"?
Step 1 to fixing the defense is getting past "denial". Capers should be done. Great career as a coordinator but enough. This is the downside of not having an owner...someone needs to be the bad guy and tell a TT or MM they have a choice - let Capers go, or join him on the street.
Step 2 is to hire the next best DC (two great ones just got hired) who isn't relying on schemes from the 1990's. I'd even go into the college ranks since they've seen these spread offenses...the old UW guy at LSU is one I'd look at.
Step 3 is to consider changing scheme back to a 4-3 given their personnel
Step 4, for the love of everything, is to get some speed on defense. I love the effort of a guy like Micah Hyde or Gunter, but they are no match for these WRs. You don't need to be a track team, as you still play outdoors. But please get a few key pieces that can run, BOTH in the draft and in free agency.
MichiganPacker posted:The Packers defense helped win a championship because TT drafted CM3 and Raji and hit the jackpot on the Woodson signing.
Add Pickett. And they had Collins.
Players or scheme?
Hungry5 posted:YATittle posted:fROM COMMENTS ON THAT ARTICLE: Would be interesting to see their performance data cross referenced with pass rush data from the two years...Dom pressures and asks a lot from his secondary, but rushers didn't seem to be getting home this year.
T6th in sacks during the regular season. How is this rushers not getting home?
Agree. It's not like the opposing QBs are dancing around like Rodgers back there. It's generally drop back and hit one of their initial reads. The front 7 is adequate against the run and the DL and OLBs are decent pass rushers. They just can't cover anyone with their ILBs and CBs. They aren't likely to add guys that are that much better pass rushers than CM3, Peppers, Perry, and Daniels via the draft or in free agency. Those type of guys are gone by the mid first round and teams don't let them go into free agency. If they do go to free agency, they get crazy money.
mrtundra posted:I also think we need to go to FA for at least one of our CBs and maybe an edge rusher. I also believe we won't sign all the players I listed above leaving us with more holes to fill.
Pass rushers and front-line corners are paid a premium in Free Agency. Getting an ILB, rotational DT/DE and/or maybe a nickle corner is probably the best bet if TT goes that way.
Of course they'll probably just expect Whitt to make Benwikere a player by next season, but he also lacks speed.
Hungry5 posted:MichiganPacker posted:The Packers defense helped win a championship because TT drafted CM3 and Raji and hit the jackpot on the Woodson signing.
Add Pickett. And they had Collins.
Players or scheme?
Those same players gave up 540 yards in playoff loss in 2009. Same players less Nick were aufull in 2011 playoff loss.
I can't blame Whit for the poor CB play. You can only polish a turd so much. Gunter played his ass off trying to cover Julio freaking Jones and Dez freaking Bryant. Micah Hyde played his ass off as well. Proud of those two for their effort throughout the playoffs.
I blame TT first for not having any talent and I blame Capers 2nd for not being able to hide the deficiencies to the point of allowing 31 and 44 points to be scored against them. We see our opponents with creative pressure packages work against us, but rarely if ever do we see anything from Capers.
That said, when troubleshooting a problem it's best to start with components that are easier to replace. In this instance, we've done the players are already so step 2 is the DC.
MichiganPacker postedAgree. It's not like the opposing QBs are dancing around like Rodgers back there. It's generally drop back and hit one of their initial reads. The front 7 is adequate against the run and the DL and OLBs are decent pass rushers. They just can't cover anyone with their ILBs and CBs
Just to clarify. Are we talking 2011, 12, 13, 14, 15, or yesterday? Could be any of those teams but we're talking about a lot of different players. Just want to be sure.
Step 3 is to consider changing scheme back to a 4-3 given their personnel
Why do you think they have better personnel for a 4-3? They have two DTs in Clark and Daniels, but nothing for 4-3 DEs coming back and also negating Matthews' best attributes, as well as Fackrell's. Neither Ryan nor Martinez would seem to be a fit as an OLB either.
BrainDed posted:I can't blame Whit for the poor CB play. You can only polish a turd so much. Gunter played his ass off trying to cover Julio freaking Jones and Dez freaking Bryant.
I blame TT first for not having any talent and I blame Capers 2nd for not being able to hide the deficiencies to the point of allowing 31 and 44 points to be scored against them. We see our opponents with creative pressure packages work against us, but rarely if ever do we see anything from Capers.
That said, when troubleshooting a problem it's best to start with components that are easier to replace. In this instance, we've done the players are already so step 2 is the DC.
What real upgrade has been made to the players, though?
"What real upgrade has been made to the players, though? "
Our safeties and ILB groups have seen huge upgrades over the years. We added Mike Daniels to replace a Cullen Jenkins and even added Julius Peppers who played very well for a couple seasons. Granted, CB play has fallen off, but you can't stock every position with elite talent every year. There will always be a weak group and it's up to the coaches to overcome it.
It wouldn't hurt to admit that TT has a problem identifying quality defensive players. Maybe he could turn over the defensive draft board to a trusted assistant and stick to picking offensive guys.
MichiganPacker posted:Floridarob posted:Packers need defense and Aaron is hoping Ted does something to reload. Which means Ted will probably draft a QB in the 1st round.
If the QB is by far the best player on their board they should do that. If TT would have used that kind of thinking, we'd probably be a 6-10 team QB'd by someone like Matt Flynn right now.
Aaron Rodgers will be 34 years old at the end of next season. Favre was 35 when they drafted Rodgers.
They need difference makers. It doesn't matter what position they're at.
There are a few differences. TT was making a statement about Brett Farve and Mike Sherman with that pick. The Packers had glaring issues a lot of places in 2005. Favre wasn't playing anywhere near as well as he had in years past when they drafted AR. AR is playing as well as I've seen him. Brett wasn't a fan of TT or MM and wasn't shy about letting analysts and commentators know it in the form of praising the defense and the talent but knocking the offense. Rodgers is TT's guy. Rodgers isn't home on his tractor in Chino bitching about who the Packers didn't sign (he's doing it in a more subtle manner) or criticizing teammates for looking out for their finances. And Rodger's isn't going to "retire" every January for a decade. At least not yet.
People say minus Rodgers, this is a 5-11 team.
Especially as TT also determines the coaches (and of course we know he determines the players), I never thought I would be at this point.
TT's gotta go.
Herschel posted:MichiganPacker posted:If for some reason Capers stays and they are still going to do the draft and develop, they have to simplify the schemes. Inexperienced guys struggle with complex coverage schemes and they end up thinking too much instead of just playing. Dom's schemes work great with a secondary where 3/4 of the guys are experienced and football savvy (Woodson, Tramon, and Nick Collins). They don't work with guys who were covering college WRs less than 24 months ago.
If they want to play the complicated schemes, then bring in some veteran mid-level FAs at the back end. Maybe they can't run with guys man-to-man, but at least they'll won't drop coverages all the time. Once Shields went down, they didn't have a CB that had played more than 1 year in the NFL.
The guys also aren't talented enough to just line up and beat guys, so it's a catch-22.
I agree Herschel, but I'd guess I'd rather have get beat because of talent deficiencies that still require a good throw and read than by guys running wide open through vacated zones at crucial times (like Fitzgerald last year in the playoffs). At least in man-to-man they have a chance to knock guys off routes on their release.
I guess I'd rather lose on a play like Tramon Williams got beat on in OT vs. Seattle (not terrible coverage and still required a good throw) than by Fitzgerald being unguarded.
phaedrus posted:Especially as TT also determines the coaches ......
Singular. MM has control over his staff.
BrainDed posted:"What real upgrade has been made to the players, though? "
Our safeties and ILB groups have seen huge upgrades over the years. We added Mike Daniels to replace a Cullen Jenkins and even added Julius Peppers who played very well for a couple seasons. Granted, CB play has fallen off, but you can't stock every position with elite talent every year. There will always be a weak group and it's up to the coaches to overcome it.
One position getting better while another falls apart is not an upgrade to the defense, it's ****-shifting.
It's not like the team is an utter disaster, but they need some definite talent upgrades to the defense that, quite frankly, needs more attention than just the draft. That's not just starters either, but to the depth. Cheap chum is what it is, but when there's so much of it, you're going to have major issues unless you stay extraordinarily healthy.
It's not a "Go nuts and sign every high-priced guy" strawman either, just dip in a little more for guys who can play.
Hungry5 posted:Players or scheme?
Boring answer, but obviously it's both.
Capers failures and success' have been well documented. The failures are just too numerous and too frequent to allow him to stay. He needs to retire.
Ted has put a ton of resources into the defense with limited hits on play makers. Even the long list above is over a significant time span....and includes Eric Walden 
I think the good news is that there are some talented players at safety and in the front 7 , but the CB and ILB positions are a shambles.
One thing I have often wondered about is the frequency in which TT and Co. draft guys and try to convert them. Guys like Carl Bradford, Nate Palmer, Nick Perry, Datone Jones, Damarious Randall, even Rollins (S/CB with limited speed ), etc....played different positions in college or they had already proven to be limited athletically. This either hasn't worked or it takes too long. Guys that had proven themselves in college and were drafted to play the same position in the NFL have had greater success...Clinton-Dix S, Matthews OLB, Burnett S, Daniels DT, etc...
Good news is, bringing in a DC with a successful and current scheme, along with a few tweaks to the talent pool (draft and smart FA) can make this defense better in a hurry. The NY Giants are one example of a quick rebuild to the defense.
BrainDed posted:"What real upgrade has been made to the players, though? "
Our safeties and ILB groups have seen huge upgrades over the years. We added Mike Daniels to replace a Cullen Jenkins and even added Julius Peppers who played very well for a couple seasons. Granted, CB play has fallen off, but you can't stock every position with elite talent every year. There will always be a weak group and it's up to the coaches to overcome it.
Agree that HHCD is a huge upgrade over the Peprahs, MD Jennings, and Jerron McMillians that TT put next to Burnett for several years.
And yes, Daniels did eventually replace Cullen Jenkins -- about 3 seasons after Jenkins' departure left a huge hole in our DLine.
But ILB has seen a "huge upgrade?" I just don't see it. Desmond Bishop was very good against the run and an excellent blitzer. Since then we've had the grossly underpaid and underwhelming AJ Hawk, the grossly overpaid and underwhelming Brad Jones, Jamari Lattimore, Nate Palmer, Sam Barrington, Carl Bradford, etc. until we were finally forced to move Clay inside (while still paying him like a prime-time OLBer) to stop the hemorrhaging.
Currently, we have an undersized coverage backer in Joe Thomas and 2 guys who look like AJ Hawk clones in Ryan & Martinez -- very slow on turf, poor blitzers, etc.
Where is the huge upgrade?
We do pretty well with guys named "Mike". Mike Nolan or Mike Pettine for DC ??
The Heckler posted:Boris posted:Those of you wanting to get rid of Clay will never happen. He has a shoulder injury that will require surgery & I'm certain that's why he was largely ineffective.
Most of the guys were hurt badly on defense. Trying to gut it out & get to the Super Bowl. I applaud them.
It is time to make a change at DC. Change is a good thing. I thank Dom for his contributions to the Packers. Truly. I mean that sincerely. It's simply time to move in another direction & give the league some "new tape"
Nope Clay isn't going anywhere and I would bet good money that his shoulder was way worse than we knew about.
I also applaud them for doing what they could with so many players out hurt. Honestly I took a step back and thought that yes they sucked yesterday but this group of banged up defensive players came one game from the super bowl even with all of their deficiencies.
With that being said I do think it is time for a change at DC I also would thank Dom for helping us win a Super Bowl but also think the time is overdue. They need to find a young and enthusiastic guy who preaches tough and physical defense. One thing I have always wanted from the Packers is a tough and physical defense and with few exceptions they never seem to find it.
I have no doubt that CMIII's shoulder injury was bad (thanks, Allen Barbre, you piece of &h*t) and that it affected his play. However, it seems like Clay, as built as he is, is a china doll...always hurt. Maybe it's a product of overtraining.
Herschel posted:Why do you think they have better personnel for a 4-3? They have two DTs in Clark and Daniels, but nothing for 4-3 DEs coming back and also negating Matthews' best attributes, as well as Fackrell's. Neither Ryan nor Martinez would seem to be a fit as an OLB either.
Perry and Jones are more natural 4-3 DEs than 3-4 OLBs. Yes, you'd have to resign them, but between that and DTs, your line is playing natural position. Ryan can be a MLB. They would need help at other LB, although I think Clay could play WLB. Probably not worth what they are paying him though (probably not worth that anyway to be honest).
On a separate topic, Packers should look at what the NY Giants did this off-season. Turned a liability into a strength. New coaches + influx of draft and FA on defense = Super Bowl team.
ChilliJon posted:And a new DC.
Over the past 8 years the names on defense have changed. A lot. I think we can all agree that during the past 8 years GB has had some all world talent on D. Some good talent. Some marginal talent. And some talent that didn't belong on a practice squad. With the exception of 2010 the results on defense in January has been incredibly consistent regardless of the players on the field. There is one commonality over those 8 years. Dom. Trgovac. Moss. Perry. Whitt.
Is it really wise to assume things will be different next January if a few pieces are interchanged again? I think that's an incredibly irresponsible way of thinking.
Will a new DC fix everything? Maybe. Maybe not. But GB has to start changing variables other than new players and FA's. I'm just tired of watching the same movie every year.
Good points. There is no doubt that Capers has not had many difference-makers to work with over the last couple of years, but there is a difference between losing with marginal players and getting consistently blown out in big games with marginal players. I have immense respect for Charles Woodson, and I think he put out many veiled comments that hinted at his frustration with defensive schemes. I still think it's a big reason Kevin Greene left as well. Capers schemes appear to be either too complicated for his young players to execute, or so pedestrian that they are easy riddles to solve. You can make cases for both. Just once I would like to see our blitzers get home like Leroy Butler used to.
mrtundra posted:GreenNgoldBlood posted:First and foremost, pay AJ Bouye whatever he wants..That's a start. You tell Ted, if he doesn't spend some money in FA he's done...immediately.
Pretty sure this is a shot at TT from Arodg, and I don't blame him..
Jason Wilde â
@jasonjwilde 2 hours agoAaron Rodgers' plea for offseason: "Weâve just got to make sure weâre going all-in every year to win. And I think we can take a big step
Stephon Gilmore from Buffalo is available, too. I think he'd be as good a fit as Bouye. I don't think TT will be our GM much longer. I feel Wolf will take over and will have a more favorable approach to free agency. If he indeed does, Bouye and/or Gilmore would be a good place to start. That's where we need the help, right now.
Living in Rochester and being force-fed the Bills every week, I've seen Gilmore play a lot.....and he's not that good. Bills may be happy to see him walk.
Thanks for the insider info. Grass is always greener.
Maybe a suggestion for TT, based on his less than stellar performance in drafting defensive players.....please stop picking PAC-12 players, they are soft. Stick to Big10 (midwest weather guys) and SEC (defensive focus, emphasis on speed).
Does the name Jerel Werthy ring a bell? Good players are good players, conferences be damned.
Yeah we have seen good and bad players come and go from every conference.
Pikes Peak posted:So players make the coach or the coach makes the players? Chicken, egg.
Players make plays.
Coaches find players that can make plays.
RochNyFan posted:ChilliJon posted:And a new DC.
Over the past 8 years the names on defense have changed. A lot. I think we can all agree that during the past 8 years GB has had some all world talent on D. Some good talent. Some marginal talent. And some talent that didn't belong on a practice squad. With the exception of 2010 the results on defense in January has been incredibly consistent regardless of the players on the field. There is one commonality over those 8 years. Dom. Trgovac. Moss. Perry. Whitt.
Is it really wise to assume things will be different next January if a few pieces are interchanged again? I think that's an incredibly irresponsible way of thinking.
Will a new DC fix everything? Maybe. Maybe not. But GB has to start changing variables other than new players and FA's. I'm just tired of watching the same movie every year.
Good points. There is no doubt that Capers has not had many difference-makers to work with over the last couple of years, but there is a difference between losing with marginal players and getting consistently blown out in big games with marginal players. I have immense respect for Charles Woodson, and I think he put out many veiled comments that hinted at his frustration with defensive schemes. I still think it's a big reason Kevin Greene left as well. Capers schemes appear to be either too complicated for his young players to execute, or so pedestrian that they are easy riddles to solve. You can make cases for both. Just once I would like to see our blitzers get home like Leroy Butler used to.
My bigger point is Dom has had his defenses shredded when he's had unquestionable talent on defense (2009), when he's had defenses that should never allow 38 points in playoff losses (2011) and whatever everyone decides on as the talent level 2012-2016. Mixed bag.
But in Aaron's 6 playoff losses the defense has given up an AVERAGE of 37 points in those losses.
The corners struggling yesterday isn't ground breaking news for a Capers playoff defense. It's a trend. A long running repeating loop. I don't think the scheme is too complicated. I don't think it's pedestrian. I think it's pretty much a slightly alterated version of the same scheme he's been running for 25 years and as the competition ramps up in the postseason it's being solved again, and again, and again, and again, and again.
Its my opinion those in the "Ted must go camp" questioning his ability to draft players on defense are more upset in general he doesn't dabble in free agency as much as they'd like him too. Which is absolutely a fair criticism but it's not one to be made simply based on a perceived talent deficiency on defense.
There were many posters that were down on Casey Hayward when he was here and his INTs dropped after his rookie season. Common theme was you can't overpay for a slot corner. He goes to SD and leads the NFL in interceptions his first year. Playing outside. Did Casey get better coaching in SD? Did the coaching in GB simply fail to recognize his potential? I mean Erik ****ing Walden never recorded more than 3 sacks in his three years in GB. He's never recorded less than 3 sacks in his 4 years in Indy. He had 11 this year.
Im sorry. Dom Capers Sucks!
MichiganPacker posted:CAPackFan95 posted:Hungry5 posted:There were a number of plays yesterday where the D didn't get it done, obviously. There is one however that tells me it is time for Dom to go.
The score was 17-0 and ATL has moved to the Packers 5 yard line. It's 3rd down and ATL was out of TOs.
>> M.Ryan pass short right to J.Jones for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
The defense on that play was Gunter 1-on-1 on Jones. There are maybe 2 or 3 CBs in the league who have a chance vs Julio Jones in that situation. The #domfense failed. Scheme was the problem. How do you not give Gunter help?
EVERYONE KNEW THE THROW WAS GOING TO JONES. How could you not?
4 playoff games where receivers went for >150 against a Dom Capers defense.
180 vs Jones (5th highest total in career)
176 vs Fitzgerald (highest total in his career)
165 vs Hicks (2nd highest total in his career)
151 vs Burress(4th highest total in his career)This isn't new. Capers consistently has done NOTHING to alter strategy or schemes when a the opponent is lighting him up.
Plaxico Burress' monster game was against the Bob Sanders coordinated defense. It was probably one of the reasons that Dom was brought in. Even in that case, Burress scored no TDs and the defense held the Giants to 23 points in an OT game.
The Packers defense helped win a championship because TT drafted CM3 and Raji and hit the jackpot on the Woodson signing.
Good catch! Not sure it changes the point that Capers is useless, but I screwed up the Burress one!
Personnel guys find players that can make plays, coaches (not named Dom) put those players in situations to make those plays.
Fix the defense by:
1. New DC.
2. Find a #1CB.
3. Find and add a very good edge rusher.
4. Find and add a very good ILB.
The whole roster gets better by adding those 3. Not an easy task but easier than replacing half the roster.