Sorry, I have to look forward...how do you fix the defense?

SteveLuke posted:

BrainDed posted:

"What real upgrade has been made to the players, though? "

Our safeties and ILB groups have seen huge upgrades over the years.    We added Mike Daniels to replace a Cullen Jenkins and even added Julius Peppers who played very well for a couple seasons.    Granted, CB play has fallen off, but you can't stock every position with elite talent every year.   There will always be a weak group and it's up to the coaches to overcome it. 

Agree that HHCD is a huge upgrade over the Peprahs, MD Jennings, and Jerron McMillians that TT put next to Burnett for several years.

And yes, Daniels did eventually replace Cullen Jenkins -- about 3 seasons after Jenkins' departure left a huge hole in our DLine.

But ILB has seen a "huge upgrade?" I just don't see it. Desmond Bishop was very good against the run and an excellent blitzer. Since then we've had the grossly underpaid and underwhelming AJ Hawk, the grossly overpaid and underwhelming Brad Jones, Jamari Lattimore, Nate Palmer, Sam Barrington, Carl Bradford, etc. until we were finally forced to move Clay inside (while still paying him like a prime-time OLBer) to stop the hemorrhaging.

Currently, we have an undersized coverage backer in Joe Thomas and 2 guys who look like AJ Hawk clones in Ryan & Martinez -- very slow on turf, poor blitzers, etc.

Where is the huge upgrade?

My point was that Martinez, Ryan and Thomas are a huge upgrade over Hawk, Jones and Sam Bam. 

phaedrus posted:

People say minus Rodgers, this is a 5-11 team.

Especially as TT also determines the coaches (and of course we know he determines the players), I never thought I would be at this point.

TT's gotta go.

I agree, but given the success on the other side of the ball, I think you need to start with the Coordinator.   Granted, I'm of the opinion that the offense is 98% Rodgers, but I'd rather be safe at jettison a component that can be replaced easily if I'm wrong. 

However, it seems like Clay, as built as he is, is a china doll...always hurt.  Maybe it's a product of overtraining.  

I wonder if it's a Product Entirely Different.

BrainDed posted:

My point was that Martinez, Ryan and Thomas are a huge upgrade over Hawk, Jones and Sam Bam. 

As terrible as Hawk, Jones, and Barrington were, unfortunately, I am not sure that the Martinez/Ryan/Thomas trio is any better. Cheaper yes, but not necessarily better.

No one does less with more than Dom.  Before I am fully convinced Ted can't draft defensive talent, I want to see what a coordinator who talks to his players once in awhile can do with the guys Ted incubates.  

Deion Sanders allegedly said re: Gunter - Dez  wounded him and Julio killed him.

We need a receiver that can stretch things, a real deep threat out there.

We have been discussing talent and scheme. I wonder about the "coaching up" part of draft and develop. I am wondering about the coaching up and developing the players we have. Why do other teams seem to be able to take some of our castoffs and get them to play better? I don't think its scheme alone. What happens on the training and practice field? Are they being coached up to their abilities? Why do dumb mistakes happen over and over? Are the players that dumb or is it due to how they practice and train? I don't know but I wonder if their training is lacking in scope and fundamentals. Are they motivated? Dom may even have a good game plan but it seems that the players cannot execute it for some reason. This falls on the assistants in the building.

On a side note, what's with all the light workouts and days off? It sure is not helping with the injuries anyway and it may be hindering potential growth.

excalibur posted:

We need a receiver that can stretch things, a real deep threat out there.

I don't think that's the main problem. As long as we have a TE that can threaten the safeties down the middle, our WRs can get favorable matchups deep. Cook>>>>RichRod.

With Jared Cook they were 10-3. In the two of the three games they lost the defense gave up 42 and 44 points.

Rodgers with Cook - 13 games (10-3) - 34 TDs, 3 interceptions.

Rodgers without Cook - 6 games (2-4) - 15 TDs, 6 interceptions.

The benefit of Cook has been proven, but that does not mean that that a receiver that can stretch things would not have benefits as well.

Love Cook, keep him if at all possible.....but although the Pack was losing 24 zip coming out of the half they were in my mind still in it.  What happened...2 drops by Cook and a 3 and out.  Would the Packers have won, highly doubtful but you never know, he has to make those plays.  Has to.

can it be possible that the perceived lack of talent is a lack of understanding the coaching, so thus, coaching? hmm...

CHEEZE posted:

The benefit of Cook has been proven, but that does not mean that that a receiver that can stretch things would not have benefits as well.

The difference is that playing with Nelson, Cobb, Adams, Monty, and Cook forces teams to have to consider playing the run at least a little bit. Cook gets a LB on him or a safety.

Substitute a speedster for Cook and you're giving up 50 pounds and blocking ability (even if Cook isn't great at it).  The defense plays nickel or dime and brings in an extra CB. That can still be a matchup win for GB getting Monty or Cook on a dime CB, but it takes away the run.

pkr_north posted:

can it be possible that the perceived lack of talent is a lack of understanding the coaching, so thus, coaching? hmm...

I think the lack of talent on defense is real. I've seen reports that Wade Phillips turned down the Redskins because he felt their talent was sub par. I wonder how the Packers would fare.

Hopefully better than the team Wade ended up choosing. The talent rich hotbed known as the LA Rams. 

If not for Cooks great catch in Dallas last week we may not have even made it to Atlanta yesterday. He probably should have made those two catches yesterday but those two drops are hardly the main reason GB lost. Sign him up TT !

Sounds like we can get Cook on the cheap as well.   He is going to remove about 25 teams from his potential landing spot based on his desire to win. 

You mean he's not going to want to go to Minnesota?

Fedya posted:

You mean he's not going to want to go to Minnesota?

Nope, but maybe we can steal their CB in free agency. 

Is Matthews producing like this group?

The Cleveland Browns have kept one of their own.

Linebacker Jamie Collins has agreed to a four-year contract extension, the team announced Monday....

The $12.5 million average per year makes him fourth among NFL linebackers, behind Von Miller, Justin Houston and Clay Matthews.

$12.5 for Collins is stupid. Clay and Houston are similar. Both can be elite. Both get dinged up a lot. Pretty much the same guy. Worth the money when healthy. Von is a different animal. He was a second overall draft pick for a reason. He's a destitutes mans Lawrence Taylor. 

Houston is a much better player when he's healthy. Clay hasn't been elite in years.

Without the injury contribution, what is the personnel grade of the defense in (say) the last six years?

I just don't think the infusion of talent, year to year, is even as good as the NFL average (and even much less).

The defense just never seems to be that good.

heyward posted:

Houston is a much better player when he's healthy. Clay hasn't been elite in years.

If Justin plays 16 games at inside linebacker and makes a pro bowl next year you've got an argument. 

phaedrus posted:

I just don't think the infusion of talent, year to year, is even as good as the NFL average (and even much less).

Is Infusion Of Talent Average a thing? Who tracks it? Not that I give an iota but it could be a fun read. 

IoTA correlates highly to BFI

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a draft like

29: R1P29 CB GAREON CONLEY OHIO STATE

61: R2P29 EDGE CARL LAWSON AUBURN

93: R3P29 LB VINCE BIEGEL WISCONSIN

133: R4P28 WR AMARA DARBOH MICHIGAN

173: R5P28 G DAMIEN MAMA USC

181: R5P36 RB COREY CLEMENT WISCONSIN

213: R6P28 CB EZRA ROBINSON TENNESSEE STATE

250: R7P29 EDGE TYUS BOWSER HOUSTON3

Re-sign Tretter, Lang, Lacy and Cook. 

Sign/trade for a nickel/dime Corner, ILB maybe a rotational DL, OLB.

Tell Clay he's going to be the Joker/Monster/Whatever and move him all over the place and when he gets hurt be able to have guys who can play their position. 

Make Fackrell a coach's pet project from now and as much as possible. 

Love my Badgers, but I'd pass on Clement.  He;'s been too nicked up to count on.

He was, by far (24 spots), the best-rated RB (and player) at that spot on that particular list surrounded by hobbit wideouts, undersized OL and a kicker so he was a value-meets-need pick. The specific guys aren't so much desire, it's the style: Spam the positions hardest to fill with the biggest need with the best available talent at the pick. When the talent isn't there, then look at other spots. I don't think WR is a big need, for example, but felt Darboh was a far better talent than any of the corners, etc. at that time. 

It could have easily been:

I wouldn't say WR isn't a big need...for 2018/19.  Since it takes 2-3 years for WRs to make impact in our offense, you kind of need to start looking this year.  Adams is the only current WR built for the future.  Geramino is a nice surprise but I don't see him with a #1 or #2 ceiling.

Herschel posted:

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a draft like

29: R1P29 CB GAREON CONLEY OHIO STATE

61: R2P29 EDGE CARL LAWSON AUBURN

93: R3P29 LB VINCE BIEGEL WISCONSIN

133: R4P28 WR AMARA DARBOH MICHIGAN

173: R5P28 G DAMIEN MAMA USC

181: R5P36 RB COREY CLEMENT WISCONSIN

213: R6P28 CB EZRA ROBINSON TENNESSEE STATE

250: R7P29 EDGE TYUS BOWSER HOUSTON3

Re-sign Tretter, Lang, Lacy and Cook. 

Sign/trade for a nickel/dime Corner, ILB maybe a rotational DL, OLB.

Tell Clay he's going to be the Joker/Monster/Whatever and move him all over the place and when he gets hurt be able to have guys who can play their position. 

Make Fackrell a coach's pet project from now and as much as possible. 

I could live with that!

ChilliJon posted:

phaedrus posted:

I just don't think the infusion of talent, year to year, is even as good as the NFL average (and even much less).

Is Infusion Of Talent Average a thing? Who tracks it? Not that I give an iota but it could be a fun read. 

Perhaps I used poor wording.  I am just referring to the average level of talent the Packers add on the defensive side of the ball, as a year to year average.

A Wisconsin running back?  Don't they all get overused in Madison and then break down in the NFL?

Clement is the rare exception that he didn't get overused in Madison.  He broke down while he was there.  He never looked like he regained the speed he had after the hernia (I think) injury.

OLB early. CB too. Resign Hyde

Clement is talented, but like Maynard, I worry about production meeting talent.  I would feel good about a 6th for him.  

I also thought it was crazy folks thought Fumagali was a first round pick this year, so what do I, know...

Because this is a topic on fixing the defense I want to state that what I saw was opposing receivers being open. Early and often. Success against us was due to that. The often mentioned cushion at the line being first. We need CB's and safetys to be able to press man when needed.

(Until Adams got that lesson he was seldom open last year and Aaron needed to scramble out of the pocket. This year our receivers got better against man coverage.)

On Sunday Ryan was able to hit his man in less than two seconds. Gunter tried to manhandle Jones at the line with limited success. At least he tried. The others not so much...

Speed and quicks are what is needed at that spot in order to play man and defeat the quick pass. As I have stated before we have been forced to play zone due to injuries and talent. Even the best pass rusher will have a hard time against a QB who get the ball out that quickly. I know that man to man coverage has its own weakness against certain offensive schemes but knowing we were in zone all day gave Atlanta an edge.

AND what gets me is we did what we did on the last drive Ryan had against us to win the game during the regular season. Our LB blitzes don't get home. Need to use HaHa or Hyde from the corner, or delayed up the middle.

YATittle posted:

AND what gets me is we did what we did on the last drive Ryan had against us to win the game during the regular season. Our LB blitzes don't get home. Need to use HaHa or Hyde from the corner, or delayed up the middle.

Yes, and JSO had an article stating that was how Atlanta was able to pressure Aaron successfully this game. http://www.packersnews.com/sto...rs-defense/96958846/ 

Which Dallas showed them the previous week. Cowboys sometimes brought from BOTH sides so one would get home... I expect to see a lot of that next year against Rodgers....