Sorry, I have to look forward...how do you fix the defense?

IL_Pack_Fan posted:

Herschel posted:

IL_Pack_Fan posted:

I'd have to third that ILB play was far from special, but not really the liability it once was. Ted obviously doesn't value the position very highly, and he's certainly not the only GM embracing that philosophy. Whether that's right or not is up for debate.

Going from utter garbage to occasionally passable is still a liability. It just looked so much better by comparison.

I'm sure this is part of it. I just think that upgrading ILB is probably 3rd or 4th on the list of priorities to fixing this defense. Teams can win without household names at ILB. Teams cannot win with Ladarius Gunter shadowing Julio Jones.

Agreed. 

Gotta have a viable replacement also. Replacing mediocrity with mediocrity doesn't solve the problem in the long run. If Vic Fangio was on the market then it's a good idea, a retread like Mike Nolan (the likely replacement considering McCarthy's familiarity)? No thanks. 

In Sunday's AFC Championship two players forced turnovers for the Patriots: CB Eric Rowe and linebacker Kyle Van Noy. Neither was on the Pats roster in August.

Belichick got Rowe for a conditional fourth-round pick. He nabbed Van Noy by merely flopping sixth and seventh-round picks with the Detroit Lions.

OLBer Jabal Sheard and DT Alan Branch were signed as FAs for reasonable amounts in 2015. Chris Long and Shea McClellin were signed last offseason.

None of these guys cost much (money or draft picks) and all contributed to NE's league-leading defense (ppg) this season.

The players are out there. Do we have the GM to get it done?

Dont spend another free agent dollar on defense until the defensive staff is fixed. 

But what does that mean "fixed"? How will you actually know it's fixed? So replace the coordinator, half the coaches and then what do you do if you get the same results? How is Mike Nolan, or whoever the best DC on the market, going to make sure Ladarius Gunter matches up better against Julio Jones for example? It's not as simple as straightening out the staff, the effort to improve has to be two fold. 

Always looking to the Pats and BB is a fools errand as well.  There simply aren't many BB's out there.  You could count the number of really great DC's in the league on one hand.  Maybe even a JPP hand.

As far as the "everybody knows Dom's defense" cry - I'm guessing the majority of defensive schemes in the NFL are "known" just as well.  It is up to the players on that D to execute and for the DC to call alignments and adjustments at the right time.  You'll see a unique twist here or there but for the most part everyone has tape on everyone else.  SEA's D was as predictable as can be but they dominated because of the talent on the field.  I haven't read enough nor know enough about NE's D to say whether they are more scheme or talent.  

Dom's D relies heavily on disguising who is doing what in a certain set.  I am guessing this is where the complexity comes from and the need for players to have a high degree of experience/knowledge within the scheme.  As we all know, the D was humming in 2010 when we had few rookies much less UDFA's starting or even taking meaningful snaps.  It seems since then that injuries have forced a lot more of the younger players into significant roles.

Obviously we need new players if they're "mostly" reliant on coaches for motivation. 

Great coaches make good players great. See Lombardi, Vince.

What we've seen on D over the past five years is the opposite of that.

Grave Digger posted:

But what does that mean "fixed"? How will you actually know it's fixed? So replace the coordinator, half the coaches and then what do you do if you get the same results? How is Mike Nolan, or whoever the best DC on the market, going to make sure Ladarius Gunter matches up better against Julio Jones for example? It's not as simple as straightening out the staff, the effort to improve has to be two fold. 

It's not getting fixed with Dom. Ever. Gunter is never going to match up better with Julio Jones. Regardless of who's the DC. But pointing at Gunter against Jones as an argument we have to sign more talented free agents is incredibly shortsighted. Richard Sherman was asked to single cover Julio in their two meetings with Atlanta this year. 14 receptions 220 yards 2 TDs. And Sherman Should have been called for mugging Jones on the final play in the regular season that would have given Atlanta a chance at a game winning field goal. Julio abused Sherman. 

The better question regarding Gunter is why in the blue hell he'd be expected to single Jones with a few seconds left in the half down 17-0. Matt Ryan probably had trouble processing what he was seeing at the line before the snap. 

Perfect example of the stupidity of "we do what we do."

I think he's expected to because, right or not, he's our #1 corner now. That's my point though, the fix is not a staff change by itself. Have to improve the top because I would say most of our guys would probably be good depth, but aren't necessarily starting quality.

DH13 posted:

 

Dom's D relies heavily on disguising who is doing what in a certain set.  I am guessing this is where the complexity comes from and the need for players to have a high degree of experience/knowledge within the scheme.  As we all know, the D was humming in 2010 when we had few rookies much less UDFA's starting or even taking meaningful snaps.  It seems since then that injuries have forced a lot more of the younger players into significant roles.

So why did that same defense give up 550 yards and 52 points in 2009 to Arizona? Why did essentially the same defense less Nick Collins give up 37 to the Giants in 2011? And didn't Frank Zombo take meaningful snaps in the 2010 postseason? This defense has been consistently bad every January with the exception of 2010. With all manner of player talent. 

Key players were better position in 2010, especially as the season wore on.  More experience, more knowledge of the scheme than in 2009.  

I think you can throw out a lot of examples regarding that 2011 NYG game.  Everything blew up that day and many people have an idea why.  

Sure Zombo took snaps in the SB.  You have that luxury when everyone else is playing well enough to make his job a lot easier.

Ok. So if the defense was more comfortable in 2010 than 2009 (which I don't subscribe to) then why that defense one of the most historically inept defenses in NFL history in 2011? Yes, they lost Nick. But that ain't all on Nick. GB didn't turn the defensive roster over. 

That 2011 team is a prime example of over reliance on one phase of the game, the offense. They averaged 35 ppg in the regular season, then, when the offense struggled, they had as their fall back that defense. Result, same as with several other seasons, including the one just concluded.

So as in 2011 the 2016 offense misfired in a playoff game, this time in the NFCCG, and we had no hopes of the defense doing anything positive. Don't forget that the Falcons would have been up 14-0 had they not self-destructed and had to settle for a FG. The offense stunk, and the defense was what it is.

And I recall a poster claiming we were going to the SB after we beat Dallas.

I guess the focus is now on 2017. I would love to see new players and a new focus on defense. TT has spent much draft capital on defense. Its not brought about the expected results. Its time to start thinking about new and better defensive schemes. That may come about with coaching changes. But first we need corners to match up with some of the better receivers.

I actually claimed GB was going to win the Super Bowl. I didn't expect the defense to collapse the way they did. Which is why I was so wrong. I should have known it was coming. 

Keep in mind that Arizona had a historically good offense in 2009. We didn't get torched in the playoffs by John Kitna, it was Kurt Warner playing the last really good ball he had left in him. Are we talking about how bad Dallas' defense is because Aaron torched them for the win in 30 seconds? Or that Arizona's D also got torched for 40+ in 2009? They had a pretty good D that year.

Lots of differences between 2009 and 2010.

- Speedy WLB in Barnett was out,  thumper ILB Bishop went in

-Dumped the freelancing hitter SS in Bigby for a less talented, more reliable Peprah

-Got rid of miscast Aaron Kampman in favor of stopgap athlete Erik Walden

-Traded out aging Al Harris for young, ascending Tramon Williams.

Huge upgrades!

Nick Collins loss made a huge difference in 2011. We ended up with two SS in there with Burnett and Peprah.

Al tore his ACL to shreds in November 09. Tramon started against Arizona.

I think everyone has their opinion here and nothing's changing anyone's position. I think Dom has to go. I think the D staff needs to be upgraded. I think Moss is worthless. But there's not much point trying to talk over each other trying to prove our point. Just have to see how the offseason plays out. 

I don't disagree with you. A new DC, whether it be Mike Nolan or Bill Belichick, doesn't solve the whole issue. Thompson has to address some personnel issues in addition to a new staff. Gotta replace Sam Shields, there's no coaching to get around that. Have to replace Peppers production if he's not brought back. There's no magic scheme, you have to have players who can win 1 on 1's other than your starter. Everyone shouldn't have to hold their breath every time the #4 DT is in the game.

I think everyone has there opinion here and nothing's changing anyone's position. I think Dom has to go. I think the D staff needs to be upgraded. I think Moss is worthless. But there's not much point trying to talk over each other trying to prove our point. Just have to see how the offseason plays out. 

Oh I never said anything to the contrary of what you just said regarding the D.

Woodson was also starting to fade and get hurt.  It started showing a lot more in 2011 without Collins behind him.  The rest I don't care to go back and dissect. 

Never underestimate the power of a good sit-down.

Good talk, Russ.