Sorry, I have to look forward...how do you fix the defense?

YATittle posted:

AND what gets me is we did what we did on the last drive Ryan had against us to win the game during the regular season. Our LB blitzes don't get home. Need to use HaHa or Hyde from the corner, or delayed up the middle.

Jake Ryan and Blake Martinez lack the speed to blitz.

They are about as effective at blitzing as AJ Hawk was.

Joe Thomas just gets stonewalled. He is a glorified safety who does not pack as much punch as a lot of safeties.

We are really weak at inside linebacker. Still.

YATittle posted:

Which Dallas showed them the previous week. Cowboys sometimes brought from BOTH sides so one would get home... I expect to see a lot of that next year against Rodgers....

Perhaps, but then Aaron used to be able to hit his man quick when the blitz happened. Sort of like what Ryan was doing against us...even without a DB blitz. I don't worry about Aaron when he is not focusing on just the long ball. If blitz is the opponents game plan then we can adjust our offensive game plan.

However, on defense, we have not been able to switch back and forth with our coverage scheme successfully because our DB's get beat early and often. My hope is that injuries and inexperience has forced Randall and Rollens into playing the roles they played this year. Maybe it was Capers plan to use them that way because of it. If Shields (or a real #1 corner) plays there next year and Gunter sticks to covering the TE or running back I can see improvement down the stretch, with R&R on the 2nd and 3rd guys. But, who knows, maybe another year of coaching might bring about improvement over the sophomore slump?

My 2cents is that we need one really good pass rusher and one good #1 corner. Assuming that we have an average to above average DC, I think that players not plays are the key. At least for defensive improvement we need better players. Perhaps the ones we have will improve...right now they did not rise to the occasion when needed most.

PackerPatrick posted:

YATittle posted:

AND what gets me is we did what we did on the last drive Ryan had against us to win the game during the regular season. Our LB blitzes don't get home. Need to use HaHa or Hyde from the corner, or delayed up the middle.

Yes, and JSO had an article stating that was how Atlanta was able to pressure Aaron successfully this game. http://www.packersnews.com/sto...rs-defense/96958846/ 

The Packers had to be careful trying that though with who they had left in the backfield if they didn't get home on the blitz. 

Herschel posted:

PackerPatrick posted:

YATittle posted:

AND what gets me is we did what we did on the last drive Ryan had against us to win the game during the regular season. Our LB blitzes don't get home. Need to use HaHa or Hyde from the corner, or delayed up the middle.

Yes, and JSO had an article stating that was how Atlanta was able to pressure Aaron successfully this game. http://www.packersnews.com/sto...rs-defense/96958846/ 

The Packers had to be careful trying that though with who they had left in the backfield if they didn't get home on the blitz. 

So true, Bad boy BB says the same thing and more.

http://profootballtalk.nbcspor...ent-in-simple-terms/

“Preparation, practice, execution,” Belichick said. “There’s no magic wand. You’ve just got to go out there and, look, there are five eligible receivers. Usually we get at least four of them out [running pass patterns]. In man-to-man coverage you’ve got to cover them. We’ve got to rush the passer, contain the quarterback, stop the run.

“Zone coverage; it’s a short throw. You’ve got to be on the receivers tight or a good quarterback can get the ball into those windows. Again, good execution of zone coverage, getting to the receivers, filling up those spaces so it’s hard to throw the ball in there. It really just comes down to playing good team defense in both the running game and the passing game...”

so, I don't have a lot to add here, I just think its time to move on from what we have, the pain of the same type of loss is starting to wear off, but I have every fan and friend on the planet telling me the same thing, when are you guys going to get some defense? and its true.

so the middle fat guys are good.  edge rusher, nope, don't resign any of the current guys,  would be in favor or getting calais campbell, and coach up lowery, and draft.  we can do with what we have as olb, don't resign the fodder there now.  ilb is a tough one, but i would be in favor of coaching up 50 and keeping 52 back there.  I also like the hybrid guys, that dion jones did a number on 89, same with that guy on Arizona, converted safety.  urlacher was a converted safety...

cb's - like others have said, we need to get that dude from houston, pay the guy.  then we draft here and resign 33, I know, the whipping boy, but for as slow as he is, he makes plays...

I think a the end of it, we need a new dc.  Outside of 1265, I don't care who it is, but has to be willing to take on the existing 3-4 and the schemes.  Cant be someone already on the coaching roster today though, need new blood.

SteveLuke posted:

YATittle posted:

AND what gets me is we did what we did on the last drive Ryan had against us to win the game during the regular season. Our LB blitzes don't get home. Need to use HaHa or Hyde from the corner, or delayed up the middle.

Jake Ryan and Blake Martinez lack the speed to blitz.

They are about as effective at blitzing as AJ Hawk was.

Joe Thomas just gets stonewalled. He is a glorified safety who does not pack as much punch as a lot of safeties.

We are really weak at inside linebacker. Still.

TT has whiffed more on trying to fill ILB than any other spot on the defense. Carl Bradford, Sam Barrington, Joe Thomas, etc. They played Brad Jones and AJ Hawk there for years. The problem may be that he hasn't spent a premium pick (rounds 1-3 as an arbitrary definition) on a guy that plays this position since 2006 (AJ Hawk (5th pick) and Abdul Hodge - 3rd round). Even their better players have been late round picks - Bishop (6th round). He's drafted Carl Bradford (4th round - converted from OLB), Brad Jones (7th round), etc. We've invested premium picks in QB, WR, TE, OT, OLB, DT, DE, CB, and safety. The only other positions where we haven't done that are interior OL and even there Sitton and Lang were both 4th round picks.

ILB is a difficult position to play in the NFL. You have to be able to support the run but still be able to cover a TE or consistently drop in zone coverage. Obviously if you use a premium pick for this position you can't use it on another position, but maybe they just don't value this position enough?

Hawk was drafted to play weak side in a 4-3, so TT really hasn't spent a high pick devoted to that position aside from maybe the bust of Abdul Hodge. I would have liked to see a Barnett/Bishop tandem inside as they would complement each other, but alas that was never to be. 

phaedrus posted:

...I just don't think the infusion of talent, year to year, is even as good as the NFL average (and even much less).

The defense just never seems to be that good.

Looking at it another way, we've had years we the defense was outstanding in the backfield, but LBs sucked, and/or the D-line was deficient.
Conversely, we've had good line play, and the guys in back couldn't cover Betty White. And the LBs still sucked.

It's been a long time since all 3 'tiers' were good at the same time.

1996 if you ask me.

MichiganPacker posted:

SteveLuke posted:

YATittle posted:

AND what gets me is we did what we did on the last drive Ryan had against us to win the game during the regular season. Our LB blitzes don't get home. Need to use HaHa or Hyde from the corner, or delayed up the middle.

Jake Ryan and Blake Martinez lack the speed to blitz.

They are about as effective at blitzing as AJ Hawk was.

Joe Thomas just gets stonewalled. He is a glorified safety who does not pack as much punch as a lot of safeties.

We are really weak at inside linebacker. Still.

TT has whiffed more on trying to fill ILB than any other spot on the defense. Carl Bradford, Sam Barrington, Joe Thomas, etc. They played Brad Jones and AJ Hawk there for years. The problem may be that he hasn't spent a premium pick (rounds 1-3 as an arbitrary definition) on a guy that plays this position since 2006 (AJ Hawk (5th pick) and Abdul Hodge - 3rd round). Even their better players have been late round picks - Bishop (6th round). He's drafted Carl Bradford (4th round - converted from OLB), Brad Jones (7th round), etc. We've invested premium picks in QB, WR, TE, OT, OLB, DT, DE, CB, and safety. The only other positions where we haven't done that are interior OL and even there Sitton and Lang were both 4th round picks.

ILB is a difficult position to play in the NFL. You have to be able to support the run but still be able to cover a TE or consistently drop in zone coverage. Obviously if you use a premium pick for this position you can't use it on another position, but maybe they just don't value this position enough?

Agree that the Pack has never really used a premium draft pick on an ILBer under Ted Thompson, because even Hawk was really selected to be a 4-3 outside linebacker.

Of course, Brad Jones and AJ Hawk were also 2 of the highest paid insidelinebackers in the NFL in the 2012-14 time period after Thompson signed them to big second contracts.

Too bad there is no other way to stock the roster besides the draft.

Ray Horton is still available. Every time he's on the market I know Bonger gets all hot and bothered.

pkr_north posted:

so, I don't have a lot to add here, I just think its time to move on from what we have, the pain of the same type of loss is starting to wear off, but I have every fan and friend on the planet telling me the same thing, when are you guys going to get some defense? and its true.

so the middle fat guys are good.  edge rusher, nope, don't resign any of the current guys,  would be in favor or getting calais campbell, and coach up lowery, and draft.  we can do with what we have as olb, don't resign the fodder there now.  ilb is a tough one, but i would be in favor of coaching up 50 and keeping 52 back there.  I also like the hybrid guys, that dion jones did a number on 89, same with that guy on Arizona, converted safety.  urlacher was a converted safety...

cb's - like others have said, we need to get that dude from houston, pay the guy.  then we draft here and resign 33, I know, the whipping boy, but for as slow as he is, he makes plays...

I think a the end of it, we need a new dc.  Outside of 1265, I don't care who it is, but has to be willing to take on the existing 3-4 and the schemes.  Cant be someone already on the coaching roster today though, need new blood.

Grave Digger posted:

Ray Horton is still available. Every time he's on the market I know Bonger gets all hot and bothered.

Bong read my post?

Bong READ MY POST!!1!!@!1

That's a great gif. EKB always has the best gif's. EKB is like a gif Jedi.

Make Defense Great Again

Is the tipping point Dom wearing a Rodgers jersey during a game? Would that do it? 

SteveLuke posted:

YATittle posted:

AND what gets me is we did what we did on the last drive Ryan had against us to win the game during the regular season. Our LB blitzes don't get home. Need to use HaHa or Hyde from the corner, or delayed up the middle.

Jake Ryan and Blake Martinez lack the speed to blitz.

They are about as effective at blitzing as AJ Hawk was.

Joe Thomas just gets stonewalled. He is a glorified safety who does not pack as much punch as a lot of safeties.

We are really weak at inside linebacker. Still.

I recall Thomas absolutely trucking a RB on a blitz a couple times.   He was mostly used for his coverage skills because that's where he was needed most.   

He had a great year.  No, he isn't Brian Urlacher, but he did a damn good job in his role. 

BrainDed posted:

SteveLuke posted:

YATittle posted:

AND what gets me is we did what we did on the last drive Ryan had against us to win the game during the regular season. Our LB blitzes don't get home. Need to use HaHa or Hyde from the corner, or delayed up the middle.

Jake Ryan and Blake Martinez lack the speed to blitz.

They are about as effective at blitzing as AJ Hawk was.

Joe Thomas just gets stonewalled. He is a glorified safety who does not pack as much punch as a lot of safeties.

We are really weak at inside linebacker. Still.

I recall Thomas absolutely trucking a RB on a blitz a couple times.   He was mostly used for his coverage skills because that's where he was needed most.   

He had a great year.  No, he isn't Brian Urlacher, but he did a damn good job in his role. 

Agree, I did not see as poor of LB play than has been posted here. I think we are at least average to above average when all players are healthy. Premium players get premium pay. I am not sure they are worth it. I would rather see us invest in a premium corner and see results from coverage sacks.

I am coming to believe that one shutdown type corner added to some improvement to the ones we have would be the best fix to our defense for now.

Let's hope that the perplexing decline in Rollins & Randall's play was totally due to injuries, like Adams last season. 

I'd have to third that ILB play was far from special, but not really the liability it once was. Ted obviously doesn't value the position very highly, and he's certainly not the only GM embracing that philosophy. Whether that's right or not is up for debate.

What I don't think anyone would challenge is that pass rush and CB are the two most important components of any defense, and two of GB's least effective spots in 2016.

FLPACKER posted:

Let's hope that the perplexing decline in Rollins & Randall's play was totally due to injuries, like Adams last season.  

No way to know and the Packers really can't be sure of what they have with either. Need at least one more corner and just hope at least one of the two eventually pans out.

IL_Pack_Fan posted:

 

What I don't think anyone would challenge is that pass rush and CB are the two most important components of any defense, and two of GB's least effective spots in 2016.

The stats really don't point to a lack of pass rush. We were 6th in sacks & 2nd in total yards lost due to sacks. I think the perception that our pass rush is lacking is due to the fact that the QB rarely has to hold onto the ball because receivers were quickly open. 

YATittle posted:

1996 if you ask me.

The LBs weren't actually that great in 1996. Wayne Simmons intimidated a bunch of TEs, but Koonce, Cox, and Brian Williams were basically just guys. 

1996's defense was dominating because they had one of the best DLs in Packer (and maybe NFL history). Reggie goes without saying, but Santana Dotson was a very good player - I'd say he was as good as Mike Daniels. Sean Jones was a premium level pass rusher and Gilbert Brown was obviously a guy who plugged the middle. Put the together with a secondary with a should-be HOFer at SS (Butler) and a very experienced Pro Bowl level safety in Eugene Robinson and three very good corners (Newsome, Evans, and Tyrone Williams) and it didn't really matter who the LBs were. 

2010 was the best year at all three levels. Raji was playing at a Pro Bowl level and Cullen Jenkins was essentially the Mike Daniels/Santana Dotson type. CM3 was dominant and Desmond Bishop was the best ILB they had in the TT era. Hawk was just a stop slow instead of 5 steps slow and 3/4 of the secondary was playing a Pro Bowl level with Shields as the 3rd CB. 

The philosophy was so much different under Wolf. Not a single one of their starting DL was drafted by the Packers (Gilbert was a waiver wire pickup and the other three were free agents). Ron Cox filled in at MLB and he was also a free agent pickup. Eugene Robinson was a veteran free agent. 

Was Wolf's philosophy different, or is player acquisition a different game now?  

Both got one ring.  

Probably both.  People love to sing the chorus "TT needs to use FA more" without qualifying it in any way.  They often cite his success with the FA's he does sign.  The thing is he gets FA's only when value and price converge.  Not costing compensatory picks is another factor for him.  I'm all for TT finding more FA's that "fit" but that list gets a lot shorter when trying to avoid the FA busts that most teams end up with.  

The Adams comparison is a good one. I think his injury is what hurt his (what I call) "quicks". And I see the same problem with R&R. The ability to wiggle and adjust in a short space. An injured core muscle can do that. Capers compensated by keeping them in zone and we all saw what happened with that. For the most part the run defense was not the problem this year as much as it has been in the past. So ILB was not the issue as was the inability to defeat the passing game. I also agree with what others have stated that the loss of veteran leadership in the backfield did not help. I think that their confidence was effected by being burned over and over. We saw at various times one or both of them being pulled from games due to poor play. For some it could be a wake up call but it can also impact their mindset in a negative way. Gunter was a beast but does not have the skill set and talents to be a great corner against top talent.

I see R&R getting better next year, but only as the #2 and #3 corners. Keep Gunter as a backup to them. Deloriant or Hawkins may have some future, but too soon to tell. Hyde is in the mix (if resigned) but he is what he is and I don't expect any improvement in his skills.

I would love to see us with a true #1 corner but that's not TT's way. Maybe a mid tier CB gets cut by another team and we can find one of them. I also doubt that a good one will fall into our laps at the bottom of the draft rounds. So it is up to the staff to coach up what we already have.

FLPACKER posted:

The stats really don't point to a lack of pass rush. We were 6th in sacks & 2nd in total yards lost due to sacks. I think the perception that our pass rush is lacking is due to the fact that the QB rarely has to hold onto the ball because receivers were quickly open. 

There is a notable difference between sack stats and consistent pressure.  Consistent pressure is just as valuable and sometimes more valuable than the occasional sack.  I recall a few games where the D was getting both because of some fortuitous matchups but my impression from this season as a whole is that they were not able to produce consistent pressure on opposing Q's.  That puts your secondary in a hole before you even factor in their own shortcomings.

Save a few hiccups like DAL, our run D looked very good for most of the season.

PackerPatrick posted:

So it is up to the staff to coach up what we already have.

Remember when Casey Hayward said there was confusion in the secondary on Fitzgerald's 76 yard OT backbreaker last year that was also ripe with some truly horrific tackling? And it was decided that $5 million per season for a slot corner that at times seemed lost in the secondary schemes wasn't a good allocation of cap money? And it was kind of hard to argue with that logic because for all we knew Hayward was regressing from his breakout rookie season. Kind of like what's happening with Randall and Rollins. 

Something is completely broken with Dom and his staff. Maybe they don't communicate well. Maybe the league knows what Dom is doing. Maybe they are incapable of developing talent unless they get a player that performs in spite of their efforts. 

And when the talk turns to signing a mid tier DB free agent aren't we talking about signing a guy like Casey Hayward? How exactly are things going to be different? 

I have no faith whatsoever anything is changing with Dom Capers defense regardless of the draft picks and free agents he's provided  

Ryan improved in his second year. Martinez was an improvement. Both were injured at various points of the season. Need to be healthier. The collective bargaining agreement limiting practices has to be a factor.

Something is completely broken with Dom and his staff. Maybe they don't communicate well. Maybe the league knows what Dom is doing. Maybe they are incapable of developing talent unless they get a player that performs in spite of their efforts. 

And when the talk turns to signing a mid tier DB free agent aren't we talking about signing a guy like Casey Hayward? How exactly are things going to be different? 

I have no faith whatsoever anything is changing with Dom Capers defense regardless of the draft picks and free agents he's provided  

THIS!@

Why can't MM see that?

We all know what contributes to defensive performance - health, talent level, and coaching.

I think one reason there is so much debate is that in the case of the Packers, all three have contributed and pretty much every year for the past several years.  So someone says it's coaching and another chimes in about talent level and injuries.  Someone says it's talent level and injuries and someone chimes in that yeah, but it's mainly the coaching.

And so on. 

My sense on each category.

Injuries - Packers generally seem way on the high side with this category.  Is it bad luck or conditioning or both?  No idea so I'll leave it alone save to mention injuries is obviously a factor and conditioning needs to be examined.

Talent Level - All in all, I think the talent level brought in is quite poor and it has been this way for a long time.

Coaching - I think Caper's defense is among the very best provided he has a fair amount of talent and experience.  It is among the worst if the talent level he works with is poor and fairly inexperienced.

For example, if Capers was working with a fairly experienced defense with an overall very good talent level, I think his defense will play better than 95% of the same defenses coached by someone else.  I think if he has a mediocre or worse defense that is fairly inexperienced, his defense will play worse than 95% of the same defense if coached by someone else.

If I am right about Capers, he is an excellent coach under certain circumstances and a poor coach under other circumstances and, unfortunately, he is generally (but not always - 2010) coaching under the circumstances for which he is not very good (low talent level, fairly inexperienced).

It seems to me TT and Capers are a bad fit.  TT is not providing enough talent and the talent he provides is overall fairly inexperienced.

I think TT's draft and develop approach is a poor one on the defensive side of the ball.  Free agents are generally known commodities and so the characteristic of missing on a fair number of draft picks is tempered by dipping into free agency for known talent level.  Of course, draft and develop is also on the high side for having younger (read: inexperienced) players.

TT ought to do less draft and develop and dip more into free agency ON DEFENSE since his draft record on that side of the ball is poor and chronically so and since Capers defenses fare better with more experienced players.

If it is a decent speculation that the talent level on defense for the next (say) three years (read: to the place where Rodger's is getting up there) is at best average or barely above average...

Capers has to go.

Finally, given the poor talent level on a chronic basis, perhaps it makes sense to install someone who does a better job of talent evaluation on defense than TT does.

IL_Pack_Fan posted:

I'd have to third that ILB play was far from special, but not really the liability it once was. Ted obviously doesn't value the position very highly, and he's certainly not the only GM embracing that philosophy. Whether that's right or not is up for debate.

Going from utter garbage to occasionally passable is still a liability. It just looked so much better by comparison.

ChilliJon posted:

Something is completely broken with Dom and his staff. Maybe they don't communicate well. Maybe the league knows what Dom is doing.  

It seemed like an awful combination of the two on Sunday. Ryan and Shannahan seemed to know exactly where each blitz was coming from and where to attack, while on multiple occasions we saw GB DBs line up late or wrong. When the opponent knows your defense better than your players, probably time to hang it up.

Herschel posted:

IL_Pack_Fan posted:

I'd have to third that ILB play was far from special, but not really the liability it once was. Ted obviously doesn't value the position very highly, and he's certainly not the only GM embracing that philosophy. Whether that's right or not is up for debate.

Going from utter garbage to occasionally passable is still a liability. It just looked so much better by comparison.

I'm sure this is part of it. I just think that upgrading ILB is probably 3rd or 4th on the list of priorities to fixing this defense. Teams can win without household names at ILB. Teams cannot win with Ladarius Gunter shadowing Julio Jones.

Dr.-Ka-Bong posted:

NOBODY expected that!

IL_Pack_Fan posted:

ChilliJon posted:

Something is completely broken with Dom and his staff. Maybe they don't communicate well. Maybe the league knows what Dom is doing.  

It seemed like an awful combination of the two on Sunday. Ryan and Shannahan seemed to know exactly where each blitz was coming from and where to attack, while on multiple occasions we saw GB DBs line up late or wrong. When the opponent knows your defense better than your players, probably time to hang it up.

That's a problem that seldom lingers into the next year. It can be fixed with self scout, new players and updated playbooks (assuming all the pictures been colored in the old ones).

Maybe they don't communicate well.

When they won the SB and had D talent, there was a lot of experience in the back end.

I've always believed Dom is too complicated in scheme/terminology - though I don't know this to be true. What I do know, often this season I saw Gunter, Rollins, and Randall looking to the inside just before the snap as if they were trying to understand what to do versus the offensive formation based on the defense called.

Over time these guys will learn and be able to adjust on the fly in the scheme based on what the offense is doing, but with Thompson consistently churning the roster, there isn't always the luxury of time.

Tick tock, 34 next December.

Dr.-Ka-Bong posted:

Redundant as motivation is the responsibility of the coaching (and to a lesser extent, the players).