The Norvening

You must have a blind spot for the previous 3 years I keep mentioning.

 

Oh injuries, oh drafting, oh something, oh something else.  It's like you think Capers has just been some victim of circumstance.  The whole lot of them deserves criticism but when they can't even get the players to practice fundamental ****ing tackling it's the god damn coach.

It isn't 6 of 8 quarters. It's 3+ years and 6 of 8 quarters

 

The personnel isn't where it needs to be either. This front 7 is not good.

DC's defense is just too complicated for a roster that has to keep renewing annually, not to mention that the competition seems to have caught up to it. MM's been hanging on to him out of a well-deserved respect but if could be his undoing. Rodgers laid a turd beginning with the first snap and was sleepwalking through most of the first half. He is the offense on this team.

 

So you think TT sucks?

Wouldn't it be great if they didn't think it was a part time job?

Why is it just 3 years? I seem to remember the 3 years before that he called an elite D. I don't think he's a victim, but how can you possibly say that he had the same talent on D that had in 2010?? No replacements for Collins, Woodson, Jenkins, Bishop, etc. That's the reality. You trot out **** players and you get a **** defense. He's made mistakes, I don't think he has adequately prepared for the Read Option, most likely because he thinks it's a fad. You can win with an average DC, gotta have the talent though. No DC can turn MD Jennings and Brad Jones into Ed Reed and Ray Lewis.

I think TT is as much to blame as MM, Capers, and the Asst Coaches. At some level someone said "I like this Jerron McMillan guy" and then multiple coaches said "yeah I like him too" and someone drafted him and someone played him and when he sucked someone said "maybe he will get better, we don't need a free agent" and the coaches agreed. I don't think that's unique to GB though, I think that just happens. Sometimes you have to start an MD Jennings to realize you need to invest in a Haha Clinton-Dix. It happens and I think it happens all over the NFL. Doesn't mean you clean house whenever something goes wrong, that's why the Browns are the Browns.

TT absolutely deserves blame and maybe he needs to go the route he did with oline and quit drafting "potential", "tweeners" and just draft ballers and tell the coaches to make it ****ing fit.  Kyri ****ing Thornton?

 

I think the organization across the board needs to look in the mirror if they ever want to get back to the Superbowl while AR is still playing but Occam's razor is going to win every time when it comes to placing blame.

My major gripes with MM are:

 

1- He hates running in the redzone.  1st and goal at the 5, we pass twice and then run on 3rd and goal from 5.  Sooo tricky.  This is the norm, not an anomaly.

 

2 - He has to get a point rammed in his face over and over before he adapts to it.   All first half Sherrod is getting whooped.  He provides no help until the 2nd half.  Why?  Is it that hard to make this adjustment mid game?   Why was this not expected in the 1st place?  Again, this happens all the time, it is not an anomaly.  

 

3 - He is loyal to a fault.  No way Capers should have a job after last season.   We are digressing on D for 3 years now.   He should get a pass for years 1 and 2, but this year if the D ****s the bed it is completely on him for not making the moves needed to address it.

 

  

 

 

 

There is a level of stagnation on this team, that's what I see.  You keep believing a system is static , even a great one for it's time,  you will become irrelevant.

BS…they were not an elite D for three years. They were an elite D in 2010. In 2009, his defense was giving up 500+ yards to Ben Roethlisberger, letting Favre walk all over them, and that absurd playoff game by Kurt Warner where he had more TDs than incompletions.

 

He did a great job in 2010 and deserved a super bowl ring for it. But everything else has been forgettable and it's beyond time to move on from him. 2 solid quarters against the Jets and their awful execution doesn't absolve 3+ years of poor play.

The failure with the D is an organizational one. 3+ years without much of any improvement. TT and Co. have not drafted well on that side of the ball lately, and they've been using high picks on guys but with little to show for it

 

Capers has also been outcoached far too often, especially in big games. It's all a combination of that + weak personnel. That is why I don't see much of any improvement with this defense as the year goes on. They don't have the players nor the DC needed to take things to the next level. Watching the defense this year is like groundhog day.

I would suggest the Wolfening.  TT has lost a lot of talent from the front office.  Does he have the accumen as a GM to replace it?  What the hell has Elliot Wolf ever done?  TT is a fantastic scout and has a system that is effective but has he lost the talent in the front office that allows him to do what he does best and to offer counter points to his approach? 

 

The whole point is if each individual can't honestly reassess then the Norvening is complete.  ****, Dom is already a fully indoctrinated Norvener/Lovieite.  They are soul mates.  So if MM can't make the tough decisions and demand accountability then he's next in line. 

This is the most succinct expression of the biggest problem with the Packers.  There is a level of comfort that has become a part of the team since we won in 2010.  I have not seen the intense hunger that characterized the 2010 team since that Super Bowl.  This is where leaders should emerge, or more to the point, should have already emerged, to step up and police the team.  

So what's going to happen if the D plays consistent and strong the rest of the season and we go deep into the playoffs? He has fewer excuses now, I like the talent we have although ILB will continue to be the weak link. If Daniels keeps playing this way, the OLBs keep pressuring the QB, the Safeties play all over the field, and the CBs keep playing strong then there should be no excuse. If Norv Capers still can't field a competent D by week 4 then I will be very concerned and if he can't fix things in the second half of the season then I will definitely agree he should be sent packing. I don't think this D will be the same one we saw the last couple years though. It's deeper and more talented at the top.

Both Offenses(Lions n Bears) coming up are better than the Jets so we will definitely find out on the Road exactly where we are at coming out of those 2 game imo.

 

Honestly, with this defense showing so far I hate to say it but I see us at 4-4 after 8 if the offense doesn't stay consistently brilliant.

 

BTW, we maybe the only team in the league that has our "2nd" receiver returning punts at times.

With no real TE, imo its rolling the dice a bit until the playoffs.

Last week I would've told you I have no doubt the Packers will win the division but likely lose in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs.  I honestly don't know if I would be comfortable saying that after today.  I would say they will make the playoffs but I can't say they win the division.  

 

I truly can't see this coaching staff taking the players available to them and making the leap that would push them further than previous years.  They may throw in some wrinkles during the regular season but ultimately will be outclassed when it counts.  Daniels can't save the entire middle of that defense.   Capers will be in reactive mode as usual for the season.  Always coaching to deficiencies that should've been previously addressed.  I'm guessing they are scrapping a big chunk of the "scheming" already.  

 

If Capers pulls out a miracle I'll give him his due.  I have supported Capers and most of the coaching staff for years but it's time to call a spade a spade.

After watching a supposedly piss poor Chicago defense completely handle SF at home, especially after the way the Packers lost to Seattle, it's pretty hard to see this defense having some epiphany that would propel them deep into the playoffs.

 

In my entire life as a Packer fan I have never felt like I had no read on this team at all.  I bought into it, thinking MM would go to the next level and take the staff and team with him.  Incredibly bad read on my part.

None of the critics have been able to explain high defensive rankings in 2009 and 2010 and our 15-1 record in 2011. Those defenses consistently get left out of the story with Capers. So what was the difference those years? More talent? Capers was only good then?

I see a defense where too many guys are trying too hard to make a play and leaving their primary responsibilities behind.  In a 1 gap scheme that's a recipe for disaster.  That wouldn't be so bad if there were impactful linebackers, but there's not. If anything there's plenty of room for improvement but their ceiling is pretty low in my estimation.  I can't think of the last team that won a Superbowl with a defense like ours.   

 

 

Agreed The Capers era is over. 1st half today was the end.

But you can't look at another game from today and have any idea what any team is actually all about. The Bears win tonight has as much to do with what SF did wrong. Kaepernicks first read is still his favorite read.

I honestly don't know what to think of anyone's team after week 2 other than a lot of mediocre football.

Stats mean nothing to me.  Which stats are we looking at?  PFF's made up stats?  ESPNs made up stats?  Can we talk about strength of schedule?  Weather conditions?  How about ****ting the bed when it counts most?  Whose made up stats are we going to use to prop up Dom's being outcoached on a regular basis?  How about the trending of more consistent failure?    

 

TT needs to pull his head out of his ass in terms of dline/ILB drafting but it's time for Capers and Moss to leave.   

GD, if you reference my first post in this thread, it may provide some clarity on this subject.

When MM hit his stride, and our offense was really clicking, a lot of opposing coaches/coordinators didn't know how to game plan for us. My guess is they did some serious homework, and learned how to attack our weaknesses within Capers' scheme.

Meanwhile, we just stagnated, if not regressed.

Also, game to game conditions may have favored our defenses in those years. When we were playing with a signicant lead, and forced the other teams out of their game plan, it played to the strengths that our defense had at that time. IOW, if a team was forced to abandon the run, it created a lot more opportunities for sacks and INTs.

We no longer have those same strengths.

Great explanation. spot on how things have evolved with the Dom-inator at the controls.

Let's address it.

 

Everyone has tipped their hats to the 2010 season… no one has criticized the D for that showing.

Everyone has said the 2011 season was in spite of the D. It was an awful D and that 15-1 record was a reflection of Aaron Rodgers and the offense being dominant. No point in arguing that.

So let's talk bout that dominant 2009 defense and see if we can detect a pattern by looking at opposing QBs:

 

Wins:

*Bears at Home: Cutler 4 ints

*at Rams: Bulger knocked out, Kyle Boller QB

*Lions at Home: Culpepper and Drew Stanton QBs

*at Cleveland: Derek Anderson (12/29 for 99 yards and a pick)

*Dallas at Home: Romo 

*SF at Home: Alex Smith

*at Detroit: Stafford (4 ints)

*Baltimore at Home: Flacco (3 ints)

*at Chicago: Cutler (2 ints)

*Seattle at home: Hasselbeck

*at Arizona: Matt Leinart (meaningless game where Warner sat)

 

Losses:

*Cincy at Home: Carson Palmer 3 TDs

*at Minnesota: Favre 3 TDs

*Minnesota at home: Favre 4 TDs

*at Tampa: Freeman 3 TDs

*at Pitt: Roethlisberger 503 yards, 3 TDs, including game winner with 3 seconds left

*at Arizona (playoffs): Warner 29/33 379 yards, 5 TDs

 

I don't care what the rankings suggest -- that was not a dominant defense. That was a team that beat-up on awful QBs and confounded Jay Cutler and Tony Romo…two talented QBs who seem to be their own worse enemy. But the elite QBs they saw (Favre, Roethlisberger, Warner) absolutely shellacked them. 

Beating up on Derek Anderson and Dante Culpepper/Drew Stanton, etc. doesn't make you an elite defense.

 

So as far as I'm concerned, the Dom Capers elite D legend in Green Bay has had one success story - 2010. And I'm thrilled about that year…I really am. Dom deserved that ring. But at what point do we recognize that was the exception and not the rule. His defenses have been MIA since that Super Bowl, and contrary to public opinion, they weren't that hot before then. That Cardinals playoff game is among the worst defensive performances I had ever seen. That is until I saw Kaepernick destroy them in SF three seasons later.

 

 

Exactly & Completely.

 

We've seen this same god damn bull$hit on defense for 3 ****ing years!

 

I was patient until I saw the game vs. Seattle. That's it! I've seen all I need to see. This is not a 6 out of 8 quarter rant here. GET the **** OUT!! You've proven you're DONE. The game has passed you by. Proof is watching the Chargers kick the crap out of the Seahawks. Yes that's right the "invincible" Seahawks.

 

Nothing, short of winning the Super Bowl THIS SEASON will change my mind. Dom is done. It's time to retire. GTFO!!!

 

 

The Cardinals. They impressed me today even though it was vs. the Giants. Drew Stanton....are you kidding me?!?!? But they still can't cover the TE. They currently lead the NFC West

 

So this D was built to merely slow down offenses and not let them catch up to Rodgers and Co. in a points race? I don't disagree with that. So now defenses have caught up with Rodgers who isn't scoring points at an alarming rate yet Capers is still stuck with a D that was built to merely slow down offenses. That sounds like a flawed concept from TT and McCarthy from the get go. The evidence supports that though, they've been collecting undersized pass rushers, developing CBs and favoring athletic LBs over true thumpers while continuing to build up an already potent offense. Is any of that untrue? What that sounds like is they put their DC in a weird position, they give him a D built to rush the passer and protect a lead, but now that they aren't blowing up the scoreboard as quickly as they hoped the D actually has to be balanced and it just isn't. Ultimately the DC is responsible for the D, but that sounds like a terrible position for DC to be in...not to mention he's had awful players like MD Jennings, Brad Jones, etc. as his starters.

Hank, are you really going to try and BS me by saying Capers never had a good D? You're trying to hide behind stats, which you apparently think are subjective, and then cite Capers being "outcoached" which is a 1000% subjective measurable. You just think Capers was outcoached, I know how many points they allowed in 2010. Maybe he does get outcoached, maybe it's the players having a bad game, maybe it's the football gods working their magic...all of those are equally likely.

Let me be clear, I'm not a Dom Capers apologist. If he gets fired I won't care. My point is that the issue is deeper than Dom Capers. Some seem to think that hiring a new DC will energize the players and we will be elite, I don't think that will happen. At least I don't think that would have happened after last year, this D has more talent. Some here seem to think a guy like Ray Horton would have jumped in and moved this player here and blitzed this guy here and we would have been elite. I will say it again, **** players field a **** D, period. No DC could have fielded a competent D with MD Jennings. The reason I stick up for Capers is that I don't think mid-season firings do any good long term and really I think any time you can get continuity with a system it is much better. Changing systems sets a team back, sometimes it works out for the better, but once that initial shock of your new D wears off then you tend to get exposed because your whole D needs time to get comfortable in the new system. We always talk about how some positions don't really get comfortable until year 3, I think that's true with schemes. Some guys deserve to be fired, but I think patience is better off in the long run. Some mistake McCarthy showing patience for stubbornness. I think you can win with a guy like Capers...for ****s same you can win a SB with a first year DC fresh out of college football (Dan Quinn). Until we get a Bobby Wagner, a Nick Collins, and some semblance of a NT then no DC will succeed...you have to have those things to win in the NFL. If Dom had them then I think this D looks 100% better.

Plus all the Capers bashing and broken vaginas over his existence muddy up all the good discussion here. Everyone knows how everyone feels about Dom Capers.

No DC could have fielded a competent D with MD Jennings.

 

MD Jennings isn't on the team nor in the league anymore. Yet shockingly, we are still seeing a lot of the same issues with 1st round draft choices & better players. Hmmmmm.......

 

Yeah, I want Dom gone tomorrow. He's an old man & this game has passed him by. It happens. 

 

I thank him for his hard work & winning the Super Bowl in Feb. of 2011 but it's time to move on.

 

The Packers aren't beating the Lions or the Bears unless they play absolutely perfect football on Offense.

 

The defense sucks & they are constantly out of position. THAT is on the coaches. PERIOD!

Nobody has said **** about 2010.  That was 2010.  It's not 2010 any more.  And if you need stats to try and disprove what we see on the field on a weekly basis for the past three years then knock yourself out.  

 

If you find that MM and TT are failing then say as much because right now you sound like Dom has absolutely no culpability in how the unit he coaches actually performs.  This is why I titled this the "Norvening".  Because ultimately it is up to MM to take the team to another level and that sure as **** isn't happening and he appears to be following Dom down the Lovie trail.  The offense, even when not at full potential, can usually hold up their end of the bargain, the defense consistently fails.  So if you have two Norvs/Lovies on your team and one has its unit running at a high level and the other sucks, what exactly do you need as far as stats?

 

We can hit up the draft and TT but it would be wrong to say TT hasn't devoted resources to the defense and little has come of it.   

That would be patently untrue.  You've been trying to run stats up a flag pole throughout this entire thread.

 

I don't expect some midseason firing, we're stuck with it.  Capers has proven he is more a slave to schemes than the actual talent he has.

So this D was built to merely slow down offenses and not let them catch up to Rodgers and Co. in a points race?

 

Huh?  Nobody said that is what it was built for.  Im sure the intention, given the number of 1st rounders used on it, is to stop the opponent dead, not slow them down.

 

We are a decent D against the pass.  I would guess league avg.  We are one of the worst defenses against the run.  The answer to this problem was smaller DL and our same pathetic ILB's.

 

GTFO.  It has looked as absurd as it sounds.  We are strong on the edges and pathetically weak up the middle.  Its been this way since  season after SB

 

I agree the problem is deeper than Capers; however, to be sure you start by replacing him.  When you are trouble shooting a problem, you work from the bottom up.  Replace the players, replace the coordinator, replace the HC and then replace the GM.

 

Since they refuse to replace some players, we are at the replace the coordinator stage. We entered it after the playoff loss last year. 

As inconsistent and frustrating as the Packers have played take a look around the league.

 

New Orleans and KC are 0-2.   Seattle and SF got humbled yesterday.   About the only two games that were certain to me were Minnesota and Jacksonville getting worked over.

 

Carolina and to a lesser extent Arizona are surprises to me.   The Panthers absolutely shut down a pretty good Lions offense and it's not like they have weapons all over the place.   The Cardinals - with Drew Stanton?  Really?

 

The Packers are probably a 10-6 or 11-5 team and that's good enough for them to probably win the division but not much else.   They simply don't have enough talent defensively to be considered a dominant team.

I believe your definition of "talented" is playing well in a system.  Unless you've changed you definition of talented again, this ain't a talented defense.  

 

They are a phantom time out from having 7/8 bad quarters this year.  

No confidence in Two Minute Aaron in a comeback victory, at home against the Jets?

I guess if you are following the theme of the thread, then yes, I had no faith in Aaron Rodgers making a defensive stop.

 

I think he is the **** as a quarterback, but he probably sucks at middle linebacker.  

Could Aaron Rodgers be worse at MLB than Hawk or Jones?

probably yes

I haven't actually thrown out any stats Hank, I think you could look at a lot non-subjective stats and see Capers strengths and weaknesses though. When he has talent, he can get the job done, I still believe he's a guy you can win with. This thread is pointless though, it's a lot of venting about a subject that has been discussed 10,000 times over the last couple years. I don't know why I replied to it in the first place, we could go round and round on this discussion for 30 pages and still not find any middle ground. I can throw out names and successes and you can throw out names and failures, if you want to keep venting about how frustrated you are then that's fine, I shouldn't argue with you. And like I said, I'm not going to lose sleep if Capers is fired tomorrow, in February, or never...it's not Dom Capers specifically I am defending. It's the concept of making change when there is a deeper issue that won't be solved with just a new face in one season that I disagree with. Popular opinion seems be Capers is a POS, but I will say it again: **** players yield a **** defense. But I'm sure when Capers is fired I will have geniuses like Bonger screaming I TOLD YA SO YOU IDIOT! I can take it though.

More succinctly, when he gets the job done he can get the job done.  

 

More often than not, he can't get the job done.  

 

I still don't think Dom is maximizing the performance of the guys he has.  It's great he can put together a 2010 defense when he has 2010 players, but he doesn't have that now.  Get the job done with 2014 players and I'll get off his back.  

 

And if players is all it takes to make a good defense, then Capers doesn't matter anyway.