The Norvening

That's like being The World's Tallest Midget.

There's no crying in baseball, and apparently no justice in football.

 

 

 

So TT is inept right?

 

The pass defense has been solid but it's a simple fact that any good team is going to roll right down the middle with the run and force the Wizard to change the gameplan.  Oh wait, he doesn't change the game plan. 

 

You could start a drinking game with MM giving press conferences about fixing fundamentals.

Whadd'ya mean...(hic) starrt (hic)

The wizard will get it (hic) fuxed

as long as the offense is clicking, other teams will have to give up the run in order to try and keep pace.  

 

The biggest improvement in the run defense has been the Packers offense.  

Strawman alert! I think I already answered your question. Every GM has failures, even consistent failures over the years. Ozzie Newsome has struggled to find a LT to replace Jonathan Ogden drafting failures like Michael Oher and relying on has-beens like Bryant McKinnie for a while now. Jerry Reese has fielded mostly terrible OLines in New York with some occasional bright spots here and there. Micky Loomis has had the same problems TT has had with defense. Sometimes you make bad draft picks (Justin Harrell), sometimes players aren't you thought they were (AJ Hawk), and sometimes guys just get hurt and don't develop (Nick Perry). That's not to say Thompson is bad as a GM just because he failed at some things, he's succeeded at a lot of other things. He's done more good than bad in GB and I still believe in him. The fact is though, you have to have talent to field a quality defense period. This idea that some young energetic coach is going to fire guys up and make them overachieve is a pipe dream, every DC in the NFL needs a full lineup of talented players. And I do agree that every team has a Morgan Burnett or an AJ Hawk, but good defenses do not field a Morgan Burnett AND an AJ Hawk AND an MD Jennings AND a Frank Zombo AND a Brad Jones. You can cover up one or even two mediocre players, but not half the defense. 

 

This year has been different though and it appears that a talent upgrade has made a difference. Julius Peppers has made a big difference on the pass rush, it's consistent and we have been able to pressure the QB rushing just 4 or 5 at a time. The Safeties have actually produced turnovers and aren't getting beaten horribly. Sure the first 6 quarters of the season were very ugly and it sucks to lose to Seattle, but since then we have outscored opponents 102 to 40...40 points allowed in 3.5 games, that's an average of a little over 11 points per game. I don't care how bad the QBs we played were, that's excellent production from a defense. At a minimum it's good enough to win with and I think the difference has been a major talent upgrade.

I was wondering if you could contradict yourself a few more times.

 

So it's not TT's fault because bringing in talent can be a challenge.  Yet it's not the Wizard's fault after years of running the defense with the same results, bad fundamentals, limited development, bad adjustments and a general ineptness in getting the defense on the same page.  

 

It's like the 10 plagues on defense.  God is mysterious.  

 

That talent infusion/defensive scheme change has really sewed up the middle of the field.  BAD PLAYERS!  Not TT's fault but not Dom's fault for having bad players.  

 

I guess if you look at it from your perspective the defense is actually really swell!

 

For the record, TT is solid and probably could use a little help after the talent drain from the front office for years on end.  He's had misses but he doesn't cause the general unorganized dumb****ery we have seen in the first quarter of the season.  If they can't handle ****ing fundamentals and GETTING THE CALLS IN then you have to start wondering how in the **** that defensive staff is not responsible for lack of development, adjustments and overall recognition of problems in the first place.

Does it have to be one or the other?

yes or no

It's both?

In summary.

 

TT can't draft DL or ILB to save his life but has been stellar on offense and CB.   He has been about a B grade GM.   

 

Dom has not been able to overcome limited talent and in the opinion of many has even gotten less out of the talent than he should.   See consistent examples of missed assignments and reoccurring theme of getting beat they same way with no adjustments made to scheme. (Read option) 

 

TT ok, Dom bad. 

 

 

 

Nope, as I've said before it's a organizational failure but thinking you don't need to make changes to resolve the situation is silly.  The continual defense of Capers stagnant, hands off style is absurd.  You can throw out a million chicken/egg arguments of GM/Coaches/Players but there is one thing that is clear and that is the delineation between the Front Office and the Coaching staff.  TT gets the players and there are hit and misses but to continually absolve THE GUY WHO RUNS THE DEFENSE is ridiculous.

 

The whole point of The Norvening is to see if MM would become a complete coach and to see what his input on defense would be.  Is he going to continue to be a solid offensive coach while we watch Super Wizard develop defensive talent from the booth?  We can talk about shelf life of coaches, blah, blah, blah.  What do you see on the field?  Has the move to a one gap been more effective and will it take a year to fully take root?  It very well may but to act like Capers and other members of this coaching staff are above reproach is absurd. 

Who exactly is acting like they're beyond reproach?

Grave Digger, party of one.  Grave Digger, party of one.

 

I'm sure the Wizard's schemes are sublime.  He just forgot to tell the guys that actually have to execute them.

This week is going to be a good test.  The Dolphins are a run first team and won't go Trestman on us and decide to start winging it around if they get down by 7 points.  

 

Can our midget DL stand up to 4 quarters of getting run on?    I'm guessing we give up 200 on the ground again but AR carries us through by scoring on 90% of our possessions.   Being able to rely on your offense to score more than you allow doesn't make you a good D coordinator. 

Capers has his weaknesses, but historically they have been outweighed by his strengths. Like Thompson and McCarthy he does not jerk knees and over-react. So, Thompson and McCarthy have faith in him and his methods. A DEF like 2011 and I'd bet he is gone. Have a DEF more like 2010 and he's back for another season. 

 

 

Thanks for not asking if a binary approach might be a tad inaccurate!

If there is an organizational shortcoming, it's the multi-level failure top to bottom that assumed Hawk and Jones were acceptable ILB's that had the ability to run sideline to sideline with QB's, TE's and RB's in 2014. They can't and haven't been able to for some time. 

 

IMO, this defense is one exceptional ILB and a slightly better than average DT away from being an above average defense. 

 

I don't care what TT needs to do to get that ILB in next years draft. But there will be some good ones to be had, maybe even two good ones. The Hawk era needs to come to an end, Otherwise we're having this same conversation next October. 

There has been a fair amount of talent upgrade.

 

HaHa and Hyde.  Lattimore.  Pennel.  Peppers.  A healthier Matthews.

 

That's a lot!

 

HaHa and Peppers, Hyde's speed deficiencies are, unfortunately, what they are and Lattimore and Pennel are just guys. Karlos Dansby would have been a big talent upgrade, Lattimore is not. .

 

I think there is too much injustice in this thread for your moral capacities.  Move along.

Sounds like the same **** we heard from many on the board before the Vikings game.

 

It's not going to happen. 

You still haven't answered my question, do you honestly believe Capers has had the talent the last 4 years to truly field a competitive defense every week? Look at that list of hacks, most whom aren't even with the team anymore, and tell me that's enough talent. And on that note, how can you possibly develop any players when the roster turnover on defense is so constant? I guess it's good that young players are forced into the lineup immediately because they quickly find out who can and can't play, but all young players need time to develop and that goes for any scheme. We agree on the problems with the defense, what we disagree on is the root of the problem. I look at these players as grown men who have been playing football since they were 5 and get paid millions to do their f*cking job the right way. They should know by now what they need to do. If their fundamentals are crap or they don't know WTF they are supposed to be doing then it's on THEM because I guarantee they are given enough explanation and preparation before the game. These aren't high school kids who don't know any better, if you f*ck up then it's you're own fault because there are plenty of players who are prepared and don't make the same mistakes. I guess Ray Horton would have made MD Jennings play like a champion?

TT and players fault, not the Wizard.  Check.

 

I need to get me a job like that.

I'll say it: TT is a good GM, but he's not great. When he fails at drafting a position, he doesn't look at other means to fix it. He'd rather live with a mistake than take a chance he might make another. That's the big difference between he and Ron Wolf.

Look at the Super Bowl defense from '97. None of the starters on the defensive line were Wolf draft picks. Sure, Reggie was the marquee guy, but Gilbert was a practice squad snatch, Dotson and Jones were also brought in from outside. Robinson was an older vet and Cox was a Bear LB. 

 

If TT were the GM, Brett Favre is most likely never a Packer, neither is Reggie White and the franchise would have remained mired in mediocrity until maybe they outsuck the Colts six years or so later.

 

As Goalline likes to post: Free Agency is often the price of drafting poorly, yet TT avoids that avenue too greatly. There doesn't need to be a plethora of super-shiny free agents every year, but a little more judicious spending could go a long way when you're scheduled to have Brad Jones and AJ Hawk as your ILBs on a team with dreams of Lombardi Trophies. The margin between solid and good enough to win it all isn't usually that great, but settling for solid doesn't pay off enough.

Tool.

 

I do, just not the defense he wants to run. But I do believe there have been enough good players on the defensive side of the ball. Stubborn and trust, it's a recurring theme.

 

'97? That's 17 years ago... I wonder if the league has changed in that time? Wolf said he couldn't GM today.

 

With TT as the GM they've won a SB, been to the NFCC game twice, and are considered one of the model's for today's NFL. Not 1997.

What about the guy for Seattle?

 

He's won an SB by doing more in the area of acquiring players outside of the draft.  Harvin and Lynch to name a couple.

Still stings huh?

 

And he's done it without having to pay a QB $20 million/season.  Not to take anything away from him at this point - he's done a great job.  We'll know a lot more about him when SEA suddenly has to cut/not retain 3-5 good starters and some depth every year because the QB is making more than 20 times more than he is right now.  That's an extremely overlooked advantage.

Good point, JJSD.

 

Seattle GM may have latitude TT does not for that reason.

That latitude goes away after this season.  The way Wilson is playing, he's going to get paid huge.  If they win another title and he plays at a high level, he could be looking at the biggest contract in the league.  

Nice ball-washed strawman. Nowhere did I say TT needs to go nuts, just not be quite so tight.

Look at Schneider in Seattle. He won a Super Bowl even more quickly and they not only leveraged their QB contract situation for Thomas and Sherman extensions, but they brought in Lynch and Harvin, two of their most important offensive players, via trades. Then there were the DEs Johnson and Avril, vets brought in via Free Agency.  

 

What positions hadn't they drafted well at the time? WR, RB and DE. I'll even give you Harvin was probably too pricey, but the others were good value.

 

I'd argue TT didn't have that much ground to make up with outside players, hence not nearly the cash/pick outlay, but he didn't roll the dice at all really. Peppers and Woodson are the closest, and neither were guys other teams really pursued. That's also two guys in ten years.

Curious what indicator would be that Capers isn't doing the best job in Green Bay?

TT sucks, because he didn't win his Super Bowl with Reggie White.

Typical AJ Hawk blitz.

The indicator would be if talent went up and production stayed the same or dropped off. Talent has gone up definitely, it's not a championship level of talent as there are still major gaps, but there should be marked improvement. We have better Safeties than last year, a better pass rusher opposite Clay including an improved Mike Neal and a healthy Nick Perry, and a deep CB group. This is a better overall D and aside from a slow start we have seen a better D on the field. Obviously some better barometers lay ahead, but so far I have seen an improvement from 2013. There are still major gaps though, this is a D that relies on the play of the ILBs and right now we are below average in that department. We also don't have any kind of respectable size or talent in the middle of the DL so while I expect improvement, I still don't think this is necessarily a championship D. 

I guess I have a clearer picture now.   I want a coach who gets more out of the sum than the parts would indicate.  You want a coach who gets exactly what you’d expect from the parts he is given.  The only way Dom can give you a better product is if you give him different toys.  I want a guy who makes the unit better than you would expect with the talent on the field.  I do feel that should be distributed, head coach, GM and assistants, but I guess I focus on Dom for two reasons: they have been bad for a while now, and I think they were never as bad talent wise as they showed via production on the field.