The Norvening

At a real high level, I think if the DL does not get adequate pressure and if the ILB and S positions (I am not referring to this year's S position) is poor, I just don't see it.  The personnel is woefully inadequate.  The middle of the field is a sieve and any QB can toss a pass in the short to mid distance middle of the field, can't he?

 

I would guess Caper's schemes are especially vulnerable to the above lack of personnel.

There's no doubt that this defense is very subpar, and I do think Capers plays a big role in its lackluster performance, primarily because his schemes appear to be too complicated for average and below average players to carry out.  However, I think TT is even more at fault.  In 2010, the defense had playmakers all over the field, with Nick Collins, Desmond Bishop , Cullen Jenkins, Tramon Williams, Raji and Clay.  Tramon had a career year that season, and is still not back to playing at that level.  Collins, Jenkins and Bishop are gone and who has TT replaced them with?  He continually whiffs on first round picks and, while we all applaud his knack for finding UDA's, the fact that so many make this team indicates a lack of high level talent.  They are nice training camp stories, but how many are capable of playing at an elite level.  Guys like Zombo, Desmond Moses, and this year's versions show promise only because the rest of the talent at their positions is lacking.  

 

BTW...does Hawk even buckle his chinstrap?  How many times did his helmet fly off yesterday?

Watching the first half yesterday. Capers schemes aren't too complicated. They're just stupid. 

 

This was the Jet's and Geno Smith. You line up and beat them. PERIOD! You don't start moving every one around like you're the reincarnate of Bobby ****ing Fischer. Like Geno Smith has any effing idea where guys are moving too. He's running the play called in the huddle. 

The DL movement isn't meant confuse the QB as much as it is the OL. It's meant to confuse blocking assignments. It's productive against a predominantly Man Blocking scheme, but against a predominantly Zone Blocking scheme (like Seattle) it's mostly useless. 

 

The problem was Geno was getting the ball out fast. That's Marty Moronwhig's Mike Holmgren/Andy Reid WCO influence. How do you beat pressure? Quick, short passes that take no time to develop. Geno fell apart when those kinds of passes weren't an option and there was pressure in his face. Unfortunately for most of the game it seemed NY was content to dink/dunk their way down the field (save for a couple nice timed deep balls from Geno) and keep Rodgers on the sidelines. 

I saw no mention in this thread about the rap against capers when he first came to GB.

 

His Ds would start out great the first year then peter out in subsequent years.

 

He's followed that disappointing template in GB to a T.

 

(Anyone who allows hawk and guion to start in the NFL is a dumbass by definition.)

the NFL has left Capers behind. consequently the Packers should leave Capers behind. 

 

Move on. 

AJ Hawk is Dom's field general, right?  Is that why are stuck with AJ year after year?  He's the only one who can run Dom's complicated schemes on the field?

 

Big picture aside (we are in fact stuck with Dom another season),  I'm hoping second half yesterday was either the players catching up to the schemes or the schemes "dumbing" down enough so they could stop thinking and just play.

 

Agree with the premise of the thread.  This can be done and ultimately is on MM.  The defense doesn't have to be great, just good enough for Rodgers and the offense to do their thing. 

 

We got Jones off the field, can we move on and get Guion out of there?

They played 4-3 on 1st and 2nd down.  This means clay is 4 yards off the LOS.  A lot of times, the Jets put a slot WR to his side and he was forced even further away from the LOS.  

 

Soooo Exotic.  We sure fooled them by taking our best player out of what he does best. 

He didn't talk to the media because he played like **** the first 3Q. Crashing on fakes, breaking contain, getting lost in traffic- he was bad.

ChiliJon:

Agreed, plain as day.
BTW, if HAWK is out there because he can remember schemes .... Just WOW!
I suggest someone whisper in Dom's ear they have a thing called Armbands for players for plays. And for Advanced players they color code different calls, assignments. High school stuff.

Holy schnikies, For the luv of pete.

The indictment of the coach is the way an offense is able to counter everything the defense is trying to do. The first half, the Jets were all over them. They were behind on nearly every play. That's scheme.

Now it's Dom's fault that the Jets schemed to take Clay out of the play? Christ. Offenses are supposed to do that, if you're not scheming to take the best defender out of the play then you're incompetent. They put you in a position where you have to choose where your talented players are best served. Would you rather have Clay in coverage against a TE and count on your other pass rushers to pick up the slack OR have Hawk/Lattimore who, if history tells us anything, are going to give up a big play to the TE? I'd rather take my chances with Peppers, Daniels, and Neal sacking the QB then rush Clay and have Hawk definitely give up a pass. And it's not like that 100% of the time, I would say he rushed the QB more than he was in coverage. The 49ers and Seahawks don't have to move their best pass rushers around because they have f*cking ILBs that can handle their jobs. 

The way Matthews played in the early going, he deserved to be benched. It was a continuation of the Seattle game- guessing, and guessing wrong.

Press gazette article is saying Packers never really practiced the new 4-3 because they were trying to keep it a secret.  (/How do you attach a link in this new forum?/)

 

From the article:  "Once we got into a rhythm, we got to calling some pretty good stuff and it began to work," cornerback Tramon Williams said of the second half.  "It wasn't rocket science, we just called some basic stuff and went out there and executed."

So GB has to move it's best defender away from where he's most effective to cover deficiencies at other positions. 

 

In other words, they are playing with somewhere in the neighborhood of 9.5 to 10.25 players on every snap and they are essentially ****ed from the get go. . 

I don't think he's guessing. When you're dealing with any kind of option offense you have to play inside-out. OLB takes the Back, ILB and S take the QB and the interior DL takes the dive. Clay is crashing down on the back, not guessing. It's up to Hawk, Lattimore, Dix/Burnett to stop the QB. 

100% correct GD. 

That's just life in the NFL. Good defenses don't need to choose, good defenses don't have to sacrifice their pass rusher to cover a TE because their ILB can do it. When you're ILBs are mostly useless then yeah it's a huge handicap. In reality D vs O is usually 6/7/8 vs. 5 the majority of the time anyway. If the DL is doing their job then the QB shouldn't be a threat to gain yards so that leaves 5 eligible receivers vs. usually 6 defenders. No you shouldn't have to put 7 defenders in coverage, Clay shouldn't have to cover a TE, but because 2 of our 6 (the ILBs) can't handle coverage against 1 or 2 of their 5 then you have to improvise. Seattle rushes 5 or 6 on any given play because their back 5 or 6 can hold up just fine. 

 

I got an idea.. Get Hawk of the F'ng field if he is such a liability that you have to remove your best pass rusher to compensate.   Replace him with a backup, play a 3rd saftey instead, you act like this is the only option when clearly there are others.

 

I respect your knowledge, but I cannot understand why you are defending everything pertaining to Capers. 

There is more to schemes than just drawing them up and countering or not-countering what the offense is doing ... its assessing the pieces on YOUR side of the chessboard and making a conscious decision to play a no-talent, under-sized oaf as an integral part of your schemes ...

 ALL DAGnab 71 frickin plays .... 

Sorry Brainded, I essentially said what you did, but this is getting me hot ...

There are theoretical options. I didn't act like that was the only option, in fact during and after the Seattle game I called for adding a 3rd Safety and removing Brad Jones for this exact reason. I don't disagree that our ILBs are crap, I've been saying for years the big difference between GB and the elite defenses in the NFL is squarely the ILBs. Even less talented defenses overall have a lot of flexibility when their ILB is good and talented defenses can be easily exposed when your ILBs are crap. To me ILB is the LT of the defense...you can kind of run an offense when your LT blows, but it's really freakin hard. It's a critical position that requires you have a talented player there. I think Safeties are the QB's of the D, sure you can get by with a Trent Dilfer at QB, but life is so much easier when you have Aaron Rodgers. When you trot out BJ Coleman caliber Safeties and Marshall Newhouse caliber ILBs then you're D will stink regardless of Clay Matthews or the complexity of the scheme. 

 

I'm bored, I have nothing better to do than interject my opinions on everyone's theories. I disagree with your assessment of what the problem is and I don't believe I'm wrong. 

And lets stop the charade about Hawk coming from the upper brass ...

 

He is NOT versatile in a good way, he does everything equally bad.

 

The only thing about Hawks' versatility the coaching staff should be considering is whether:

A) Hawk is good enough to be on all special teams

B) should even be active on gameday

I'm always curious in some people's minds when the problem ceases to be on the player and becomes a coaching problem? What is the driving factor behind that? Aaron Rodgers struggled with fundamentals yesterday, holding the ball too long, trying to force passes, etc. but no one is criticizing Alex Van Pelt, Tom Clements, or Mike McCarthy for that. Jordy Nelson and Jarrett Boykin dropped a couple easy passes in the game, why is that their fault and not Edgar Bennett's? Why does Jarrett Bush get blamed for his shortcomings and not Joe Whitt? Yet I see a lot of people blame Dom Capers for a myriad of what would seem to be issues that fall squarely on the backs of the players.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm genuinely asking everyone where they think that line is because I think that's probably the root of the disagreement in this thread. What constitutes an issue being the players fault and what constitutes the issue being the coaches fault (albeit position, coordinator, or head)?

Curious as well.  Everybody sees things differently.  One trend I've noticed over the years, particularly on the game threads, is that when the offense is struggling, most blame McCarthy.  When it's going well, the players get most of the praise. 

I don't see why on passing downs, Clay should play back.  Insert an extra safety, remove an ILB, and have both Clay and Peppers rushing, which should push the issue on the offense - pick your poison (whom to double team).

 

CM's strength is rushing the passer.  Shouldn't a passing down scheme be able to utilize this?

 

Atta girl.  I disagree with your disagreement of the assessment but I give you high marks for your take.  

 

In fact, I would say that the intent of this thread wasn't just to bash Badger Toupee but to look at the lack of accountability when it comes to MM and TT as well.  The whole point of the Norvening is avoid this plateau of "good enough" until it all falls apart.  It's being honest enough to assess at every level and take a honest approach to improving and innovating.  If the coaches/front office are unable to self examine then it's likely a lost cause.

 

Play by play, game by game ... players.

An obvious Trend(sometimes over years and even with a Superbowl sprinkled in) that even a woman can spot it ... coaching.

 

BTW, keeping an obvious handicap as a key player on your side of the chessboard for the entire length of your demise, is definitely coaching ... and a demented 1 at that.

Also, if someone can find proof that the guru is being TOLD to play said chess pieces becasue of draft/contract then I'd luv to hear about it and exonerate the Guru.

becasue in my estimation the problems keep coming back to a central theme with over-compensating from studs as a by-product.

 

JMO.

 

So, it sounds like it's MM's fault.  

 

BTW - I completely agree with this analysis, and am still searching on the interweb to see if the Packers won/lost yesterday, with all of this butt hurt, it must be a loss.  

 

Take a guy like Zimmer (not as a HC).  Not known as a "mastermind" but consistently gets the most out of the players he was worked with.   It's all fine and good with Dom is a scheme guy but ultimately somebody has to get players to produce and there is seemingly no connection between coach and players.  If players just stepped in on their own merits there would be no need for position coaches.  MM and Dom are responsible for their respective units, one produces, the other doesn't.  

 

I'm trying to figure out how the on field performance of a player isn't the coaches responsibility as well.  How is it they can see week after week of garbage play and say "go with that".  If the coaches are completely absolved of all responsibility it means the TT is absolutely horrible as a GM.  

 

You are at the point of arguing the metaphorical "angels on the head of pin" approach when it comes to the coaches. 

 

 

 

 

Check the archives from 2012, it will be just as accurate.

But what if it's the same, dog**** players that keep screwing it up year-after-year?

 

Hawks' best attribute is that he's been .... durable (which being 8 yards downfield and out of the wash helps tremendously). The defense was playing fairly well last year when Brad Jones was calling the plays, then he got hurt, Hawk took over, and the defense went back to suckville.

 

That Hawk is the most durable Packers defender seems almost a cruel cosmic joke.

 

Typically it comes down to physical errors vs mental errors.  

 

Not understanding your assignment on the read option vs not having the speed to get outside. 

 

Not having the quickness to hang with Percy Harvin vs not knowing to expect the jet sweep.

 

So on... 

 

On 3rd downs they went back to a 3-4 and clay was rushing off the edge.  (most the time)

To Herschel:

You are preaching to the choir imo ...

 

If its a Trend,  its coaching and I don't care what side of the ball we are talking about.

 

 

 

"If the coaches are completely absolved of all responsibility it means the TT is absolutely horrible as a GM.  "

 

This.  Exactly this.

 

I'm beating a dead horse here but I will say it again.   Any time you are trying to solve a problem, computer failure or pathetic D performance, you start from the bottom up.   In this instance, the bottom is the personnel and the top is the GM. 

 

We replaced the DL and refuse to replace the ILB,  Next step up the ladder is coaches.  At the very least, the ILB and S coaches should have been replaced.  They weren't, so we have to go up one more step.  That step leads us to Dom's office. 

 

I guess you could also go with the scouting dept if you were sure it is a personnel issue.   Given our propensity for blown assignments and mental mistakes, I am not. 

I'd like to add the Amoeba front is a fine defensive play call if the intent is to make the accumulation of yards as easy as possible for an offense. 

 

I watched 2 Packers mill around pre-snap and then run into each other after the snap. That play is a damn Chinese fire drill. 

There is 1 caveat to this (and it maybe obvious to everyone else on here)

IMO, the NFL coaching hierarchy is so convoluted that Dom may NOT have the say so or even care about a guy like Hawk's production.

He may only be designated as the architect and its up to EVERYBODY else to decide on the players ability to execute assignments once the depth chart has been agreed upon. His decision maybe 25% of the decision it takes to make a change.(His, position coach, MM, TT)

If he carries no weight in his words, this might be what we get.

 

Sure looks to me like that is what is happening with a few guys.